J Davies

If a person has secondary equivalent (12 years of study and HKCEE) and then
does a 1 year course in England, sits the O-levels exam and passes, would
the person then be eligible for 15 points? ie would the O-level course with
O-level exam passed be accepted as a 1-year diploma? Any input would be
appreciated.

J. Davies

Berto Volpentesta

O level is not a post secondary diploma.

--
All responses IMHO and no one else's.

Berto Volpentesta
Member OPIC, Director OPIC

Sidhu & Volpentesta Inc.
Serving People Around the World Since 1991
www.svcanada.com

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"J Davies" wrote in message
news:KhTt9.1890$4f3.343290@n-
ews20.bellglobal.com...
    > If a person has secondary equivalent (12 years of study and HKCEE) and
then
    > does a 1 year course in England, sits the O-levels exam and passes, would
    > the person then be eligible for 15 points? ie would the O-level course
with
    > O-level exam passed be accepted as a 1-year diploma? Any input would be
    > appreciated.
    > J. Davies

Stuart Brook

J Davies wrote:
    > If a person has secondary equivalent (12 years of study and HKCEE) and then
    > does a 1 year course in England, sits the O-levels exam and passes, would
    > the person then be eligible for 15 points? ie would the O-level course with
    > O-level exam passed be accepted as a 1-year diploma? Any input would be
    > appreciated.
    > J. Davies

I'm really puzzled as to why someone would go from HK with 12 years of
schooling to England to do a 1 year course to GCE O levels or GCSEs,
considering these are done normally at about 10 years of schooling,
unless the HK standards are desparately lower (which doesn't seem to
make sense given the people from HK going straight to Universities in
the UK and elsewhere).

It would make more sense to have done A levels at that stage. That
said, A levels are still not post secondary education. Although they
are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not classed
as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.

HNC/HND are considered a post-secondary diploma (issued by technical
colleges etc.) as are Degrees from Universities and certificates from
Colleges of Education (teacher's training), etc.

So, in direct answer to your question ... No ... not at all. O levels
and A levels whenever done (even as an 80 year old at night school) are
considered secondary school qualifications by any agency's yardstick.
(I have heard of people bluffing the INS with them ... and later getting
caught on their bluff!)

Stuart

The Wizzard

    >Although they
    >are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not classed
    >as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.
They are considered post secondary in the UK simply because secondary
education ends at 16 wether you like it or not, youc ant repeat years and
stay back grades and all that stuff.
However it's not considered higher education like a degree or HND, we have
an extra step in the middle that they called 'further education' which
covers A-levels and the vocational equivilants like B-Tech and GNVQ.
So it goes secondary->further->higher and you can't go from secondary to
higher without getting some sort of further education qualification ebcause
the universities just dont accept it, so its a weird middle ground not
really reflected in other systems.

Stuart Brook

The Wizzard wrote:
    > >Although they
    > >are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not classed
    > >as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.
    > >
    > They are considered post secondary in the UK simply because secondary
    > education ends at 16 wether you like it or not, youc ant repeat years and
    > stay back grades and all that stuff.
    > However it's not considered higher education like a degree or HND, we have
    > an extra step in the middle that they called 'further education' which
    > covers A-levels and the vocational equivilants like B-Tech and GNVQ.
    > So it goes secondary->further->higher and you can't go from secondary to
    > higher without getting some sort of further education qualification ebcause
    > the universities just dont accept it, so its a weird middle ground not
    > really reflected in other systems.

Back when I went through the process, it was considered secondary
education and not "further education" - the days when 6th form colleges
were just being "invented". Further education at that time was where a
school leaver would return to school like at a tech college, or night
school classes, or similar vocational things like typing and secretarial
classes.

The difference being that school leaving age was 15 and so you could
leave without ANY qualifications.

You'd normally do O Levels or CSEs (Now GCSEs) at 15-16 and potentially
leave school then to just go to work, or go on to apprenticeships or go
on to do A levels or equivalents (ONC/OND)

Then you'd do A levels or OND/ONC (usually people on apprenticeships
went the OND/ONC route ...) but this was still considered secondary
education and completely public funded.

Then you'd go on to higher education Degrees / HND/HNC / Diplomas etc.

Further education was a mishmash of education taken after leaving formal
schooling, and could provide non-certificate (interest) courses to O
levels / A levels etc.

Stuart

J Davies

Thanks all for the input.
J. Davies
-------------------
"The Wizzard" wrote in message
news:d1Wt9.11482$323.54@-
news-binary.blueyonder.co.uk...
    > >Although they
    > >are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not classed
    > >as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.
    > >
    > They are considered post secondary in the UK simply because secondary
    > education ends at 16 wether you like it or not, youc ant repeat years and
    > stay back grades and all that stuff.
    > However it's not considered higher education like a degree or HND, we have
    > an extra step in the middle that they called 'further education' which
    > covers A-levels and the vocational equivilants like B-Tech and GNVQ.
    > So it goes secondary->further->higher and you can't go from secondary to
    > higher without getting some sort of further education qualification
ebcause
    > the universities just dont accept it, so its a weird middle ground not
    > really reflected in other systems.

The Wizzard

yeah im not sure wether they have improved it or not. It made sense when i
did it a few years ago, got GCSE's did 2 years of A levels then a degree ,
now they have changed it to all this A/S and A2 complexity and messed that
up and are already talking about rejigging it again and just making more and
more qualifications and so forth in the aim of giving more choice when
really they are just adding more confusion. Glad im out of it now.


"Stuart Brook" wrote in
message news:3DB8483F.-
[email protected]...
    > The Wizzard wrote:
    > >
    > > >Although they
    > > >are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not
classed
    > > > as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.
    > > >
    > > They are considered post secondary in the UK simply because secondary
    > > education ends at 16 wether you like it or not, youc ant repeat years
and
    > > stay back grades and all that stuff.
    > > However it's not considered higher education like a degree or HND, we
have
    > > an extra step in the middle that they called 'further education' which
    > > covers A-levels and the vocational equivilants like B-Tech and GNVQ.
    > > So it goes secondary->further->higher and you can't go from secondary to
    > > higher without getting some sort of further education qualification
ebcause
    > > the universities just dont accept it, so its a weird middle ground not
    > > really reflected in other systems.
    > Back when I went through the process, it was considered secondary
    > education and not "further education" - the days when 6th form colleges
    > were just being "invented". Further education at that time was where a
    > school leaver would return to school like at a tech college, or night
    > school classes, or similar vocational things like typing and secretarial
    > classes.
    > The difference being that school leaving age was 15 and so you could
    > leave without ANY qualifications.
    > You'd normally do O Levels or CSEs (Now GCSEs) at 15-16 and potentially
    > leave school then to just go to work, or go on to apprenticeships or go
    > on to do A levels or equivalents (ONC/OND)
    > Then you'd do A levels or OND/ONC (usually people on apprenticeships
    > went the OND/ONC route ...) but this was still considered secondary
    > education and completely public funded.
    > Then you'd go on to higher education Degrees / HND/HNC / Diplomas etc.
    > Further education was a mishmash of education taken after leaving formal
    > schooling, and could provide non-certificate (interest) courses to O
    > levels / A levels etc.
    > Stuart

Waterships

As far as I am concerned the legal school leaving age in the UK is 16 at
which point compulsory secondary education ceases. It is all about having
the choice to continue with 'further' education or not. Any qualification
past the age of 16 is post-secondary education - it is quite
self-explanatory. I don't see any confusion at all.

BJ


"J Davies" wrote in message
news:ueYt9.7701$Zy4.1205183-
@news20.bellglobal.com...
    > Thanks all for the input.
    > J. Davies
    > -------------------
    > "The Wizzard" wrote in message
    > news:d1Wt9.11482$323.5-
    > [email protected]    ...
    > > >Although they
    > > >are commonly done at a so-called "6th form college" this is not
classed
    > > > as post-secondary education in the UK or elsewhere.
    > > >
    > > They are considered post secondary in the UK simply because secondary
    > > education ends at 16 wether you like it or not, youc ant repeat years
and
    > > stay back grades and all that stuff.
    > > However it's not considered higher education like a degree or HND, we
have
    > > an extra step in the middle that they called 'further education' which
    > > covers A-levels and the vocational equivilants like B-Tech and GNVQ.
    > > So it goes secondary->further->higher and you can't go from secondary to
    > > higher without getting some sort of further education qualification
    > ebcause
    > > the universities just dont accept it, so its a weird middle ground not
    > > really reflected in other systems.
    > >
    > >
    > >

Stuart Brook

waterships wrote:
    > As far as I am concerned the legal school leaving age in the UK is 16 at
    > which point compulsory secondary education ceases. It is all about having
    > the choice to continue with 'further' education or not. Any qualification
    > past the age of 16 is post-secondary education - it is quite
    > self-explanatory. I don't see any confusion at all.
    > BJ

Balogna.

Consider that a kid can leave school in N. America any age after 16,
therefore the same must apply. Grade 12 is post-secondary education by
that token, and so all the rules will be adjusted with that in mind.

Secondary education is education last year provided by the state (or
private equivalent) to approximately age 18.

If you, as an adult take courses for High School graduation in N.
America, that is still considered secondary education, not post
secondary. If you take GCSEs or A levels in the US as an adult, then
that is still not considered as "post secondary" education.

Tough beans. You can argue that with the authorities forever, but you
won't change their mind.

The Wizzard

It's kind of irrelevant what they say in the US, the fact is in the UK
secondary education finishes at 16 period. 16-18 is further education and
18+ is higher education.
A further education college that teaches A-levels is not in any way
considered a secondary school and A-levels aren't secondary education they
are post secondary. They are however not higher education and as in the case
of CIC the next step up from secondary education is higher education all
this is irrelevant, if you dont have a degree you go to the next one down
which is highschool.
In fact US education from highschools isn't even considered equivilant to
GCSE's never mind A-levels, I had a friend at college who moved over to the
UK from Florida and had to come to our college first to sit GCSE's then to
sit A-levels so he could get into university, they wouldnt even let him in
to do A-levels on his US highschool diploma thingie, we used to make fun of
him as i remember because he was the longest serving memeber of our student
council at age 23 and being there for about 4-5 years years.


"Stuart Brook" wrote in
message news:3DB9A27C.-
[email protected]...
    > waterships wrote:
    > >
    > > As far as I am concerned the legal school leaving age in the UK is 16 at
    > > which point compulsory secondary education ceases. It is all about
having
    > > the choice to continue with 'further' education or not. Any
qualification
    > > past the age of 16 is post-secondary education - it is quite
    > > self-explanatory. I don't see any confusion at all.
    > >
    > > BJ
    > Balogna.
    > Consider that a kid can leave school in N. America any age after 16,
    > therefore the same must apply. Grade 12 is post-secondary education by
    > that token, and so all the rules will be adjusted with that in mind.
    > Secondary education is education last year provided by the state (or
    > private equivalent) to approximately age 18.
    > If you, as an adult take courses for High School graduation in N.
    > America, that is still considered secondary education, not post
    > secondary. If you take GCSEs or A levels in the US as an adult, then
    > that is still not considered as "post secondary" education.
    > Tough beans. You can argue that with the authorities forever, but you
    > won't change their mind.

dingbat

Just one minor point everybody seems to be missing - the school leaving age in the UK is irrelevant when you are trying to score points on the Canadian Imm system or get credit for a foreign education in North America in general. Post secondary education is *NOT* A levels when you are applying to get an equivalent score or ratiung for your education. A levels are High School equivalent here, approximately Grade 12 level in Arts and 11 and 12 in Math & Sciences. It really doesn't matter what we think about our education system, they will simply say that an A level student with at least 2 A levels and five GSCE subjects (which must include Math English and a proper science) has Grade 12 equivalent only. Post secondary is eaxcvtly that - post (i.e after) Grade 12 in North America. The only thing after Grade 12 is University for a four year degree or Community college to do vocational courses (like our HND/HNC) or Diploma's. (QNVQ's score very low in the equivalency ratings btw). It's a royal pain in the arse frankly, and I am currently back at University getting another degree because my qualifications are not deemed good enough to do the same job here as I did succesfully for years in the UK. I have a BA Hons, three A levels and 8 O levels. Still wasn't good enough for them!

Stuart Brook

The Wizzard wrote:
    > It's kind of irrelevant what they say in the US, the fact is in the UK
    > secondary education finishes at 16 period. 16-18 is further education and
    > 18+ is higher education.
    > A further education college that teaches A-levels is not in any way
    > considered a secondary school and A-levels aren't secondary education they
    > are post secondary. They are however not higher education and as in the case
    > of CIC the next step up from secondary education is higher education all
    > this is irrelevant, if you dont have a degree you go to the next one down
    > which is highschool.
    > In fact US education from highschools isn't even considered equivilant to
    > GCSE's never mind A-levels, I had a friend at college who moved over to the
    > UK from Florida and had to come to our college first to sit GCSE's then to
    > sit A-levels so he could get into university, they wouldnt even let him in
    > to do A-levels on his US highschool diploma thingie, we used to make fun of
    > him as i remember because he was the longest serving memeber of our student
    > council at age 23 and being there for about 4-5 years years.

Bullshit and more bullshit.

Post-secondary education is that which is completed after the formal
state schooling to age approx 17/18 as normally provided or its
equivalent.

Your bellyaching that secondary education ends at the SLA is absolute
crap.

There is good reason that an American coming to the UK has to do GCSEs
and then A levels ... to ensure that topically speaking, everything is
covered at the appropriate depth. It's not a case that the Gr. 12 isn't
considered up to the same par as say a GCSE ... Its a case of ensuring
that the curriculum coverage is sufficient.

Stuart

Stuart Brook

dingbat wrote:
    > Just one minor point everybody seems to be missing - the school leaving
    > age in the UK is irrelevant when you are trying to score points on the
    > Canadian Imm system or get credit for a foreign education in North
    > America in general. Post secondary education is *NOT* A levels when you
    > are applying to get an equivalent score or ratiung for your education. A
    > levels are High School equivalent here, approximately Grade 12 level in
    > Arts and 11 and 12 in Math & Sciences. It really doesn't matter what we
    > think about our education system, they will simply say that an A level
    > student with at least 2 A levels and five GSCE subjects (which must
    > include Math English and a proper science) has Grade 12 equivalent only.
    > Post secondary is eaxcvtly that - post (i.e after) Grade 12 in North
    > America. The only thing after Grade 12 is University for a four year
    > degree or Community college to do vocational courses (like our HND/HNC)
    > or Diploma's. (QNVQ's score very low in the equivalency ratings btw).
    > It's a royal pain in the arse frankly, and I am currently back at
    > University getting another degree because my qualifications are not
    > deemed good enough to do the same job here as I did succesfully for
    > years in the UK. I have a BA Hons, three A levels and 8 O levels. Still
    > wasn't good enough for them!

Exactly!

What matters IS what CIC consider their requirement and how they make
the comparison.