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Where do I start?

Where do I start?

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Old Mar 17th 2021, 4:52 pm
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Default Where do I start?

Hi all, newbie to the forum, so many apologies if this has been answered before, but I have just trawled through hundreds of posts and come up with numerous different and conflicting answers, a lot of which appear to be old and so I am not sure where to start.

I am very seriously considering moving to Hungary West / North West of Lake Balaton (Keszthely or around that area.) and really need to know what hoops I need to jump through and what likely costs are going to be. For the sake of simplicity, I have listed key considerations below, but this is by no means definitive.
  • I am a UK citizenship and could obtain an Irish Passport if easier to be an EU citizen.
  • I intend to buy a small Winehouse and a little land to use as an off-grid smallholding.
  • I would be on my own so have no Hungarian but can use an iPhone app or could get by in German.
  • Without Hungarian I wouldn't expect to find a job and so would be living off the land using savings until such time as I can be totally self-sufficient.
  • I don't want to complicate life through unnecessary expenses or bureaucracy but do understand some things just can't be avoided.
So my queries are:
  • Which is easier UK or Irish citizenship and what immigration hoops do I need to jump through?
  • What rules and taxes are payable on the property each year. Is there an annual tax / council tax or any form of community charges?
  • What costs am I likely to incur with the purchase of property and what ongoing costs are likely to levied.
  • I see a lot of wine houses with fruit trees and vineyards which I assume are worn out but are there any regulations in place that prevent the removal of vines or trees. I may wish to change some trees and remove the vines to cultivate different crops.
  • And last but not least, am I completely mad or does anyone have any words of wisdom that may help my decision?
I am happy to be pointed to other posts, but could really do with the latest Post Brexit information.
Many thanks
Psychosonicsid - No my name isn't Sid :-)
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Old Mar 17th 2021, 11:18 pm
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Originally Posted by Psychosonicsid
So my queries are:
  • Which is easier UK or Irish citizenship and what immigration hoops do I need to jump through?
  • What rules and taxes are payable on the property each year. Is there an annual tax / council tax or any form of community charges?
  • What costs am I likely to incur with the purchase of property and what ongoing costs are likely to levied.
  • I see a lot of wine houses with fruit trees and vineyards which I assume are worn out but are there any regulations in place that prevent the removal of vines or trees. I may wish to change some trees and remove the vines to cultivate different crops.
  • And last but not least, am I completely mad or does anyone have any words of wisdom that may help my decision?
Hi and welcome,

Definitely easier with an Irish passport. EU citizens have many advantages over non.EU

4% stamp duty on property value (may be different to purchase price but usually the same) Annual council tax payable but is usually in the order of 100 quid or so. As an EU citizen unless you have an agricultural qualification you will be limited to a max of 1ha. of agricultural land. Land has different categories which changes the amount you would be allowed to buy,

Land has a limit of the %age of buildings you can place on it, the amount depends on the classification of the land.

Generally if you are looking at wine houses and the associated vineyard the would not be a problem changing the crop production but local restrictions may apply.

Are you completely mad.......well i came to Hungary 26 years ago to farm having left the computer industry and I'm still here (Hungarian wife helps!). Seriously for a bit, most of the wine houses will have plots of less than 1/2ha. which is rather small for self sufficiency. Most wine houses have electricity, potable water is a different matter - this can be in short supply. I would say that the security of water supply should be your main concern and a dug well IMO does not meet the criteria. Most of the wine houses will be holiday homes or summer only use so expect to have to do considerable amount of upgrade to 'winterize' the place. As always with property the 3 most important things to look for are location, location and location especially if you are looking for self sufficiency.

How much do you know about self sufficiency? I don't want to 'preach to the converted' so any advice is better given with knowledge of the audience. Best to ask detailed questions.

BTW I am in the Tapolca area some 35km from Keszthely.



Last edited by Peter_in_Hungary; Mar 17th 2021 at 11:45 pm.
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 5:28 am
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Peter, Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that wine houses and seasonal houses had to have an actual address if A person wants to live in them in regards to the Immigration departments "Residency" requirements. When we came here the rule was any property that did NOT have an address could NOT be used to meet the rules in regards to housing and accomadation. Many of these seasonal and winehouses do NOT have addresses unless they are actually located in the village or town.

Another thing the Original Poster must consider is access to the internet and telephone. Some of these properties have no mobile phone or land line phone service available due to their physical locations and geographic impediments (being in a valley for instance) Plus using a mobile phone for internet access will be expensive if the plan does not include unlimited data. Some of that may change soon due to the upcoming availability of Elon Musk "Star Link" satelitte system but it will be very expensive to acquire the equipment and the monthly service fee.

Another consideration about an old wine house or seasonal house is whether it is considered a historic structure and what modifications to it may be allowed by the village it is located in. In my area there are several of these structures and it is not allowed to expand them or change the outside appearance.

Lastly, One must use due dillegence in buying property here because estate agents will NOT be forth coming with information about governmenetal restrictions, ownership issues among heirs, etc etc.
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 9:29 am
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Originally Posted by Jack_Russells4ever
Peter, Correct me if I am wrong. I thought that wine houses and seasonal houses had to have an actual address if A person wants to live in them in regards to the Immigration departments "Residency" requirements. When we came here the rule was any property that did NOT have an address could NOT be used to meet the rules in regards to housing and accomadation. Many of these seasonal and winehouses do NOT have addresses unless they are actually located in the village or town.

Another thing the Original Poster must consider is access to the internet and telephone. Some of these properties have no mobile phone or land line phone service available due to their physical locations and geographic impediments (being in a valley for instance) Plus using a mobile phone for internet access will be expensive if the plan does not include unlimited data. Some of that may change soon due to the upcoming availability of Elon Musk "Star Link" satelitte system but it will be very expensive to acquire the equipment and the monthly service fee.

Another consideration about an old wine house or seasonal house is whether it is considered a historic structure and what modifications to it may be allowed by the village it is located in. In my area there are several of these structures and it is not allowed to expand them or change the outside appearance.

Lastly, One must use due dillegence in buying property here because estate agents will NOT be forth coming with information about governmenetal restrictions, ownership issues among heirs, etc etc.
Many thanks for reply.
I was under the impression that the house had to be in a village for residency, but wasn't aware that this required a formal postal address. How can I check this? Is there a land registry?

Internet and telephone understood I am not sure at the moment how important that is to me.

I have no desire to change the structure but assume again Historic houses have some register of sorts?

Fully aware estate agents don't play by any rules and will employ solicitor regardless of value.

Thanks again
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 10:26 am
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Originally Posted by Peter_in_Hungary
Hi and welcome,

Definitely easier with an Irish passport. EU citizens have many advantages over non.EU

4% stamp duty on property value (may be different to purchase price but usually the same) Annual council tax payable but is usually in the order of 100 quid or so. As an EU citizen unless you have an agricultural qualification you will be limited to a max of 1ha. of agricultural land. Land has different categories which changes the amount you would be allowed to buy,

Land has a limit of the %age of buildings you can place on it, the amount depends on the classification of the land.

Generally if you are looking at wine houses and the associated vineyard the would not be a problem changing the crop production but local restrictions may apply.

Are you completely mad.......well i came to Hungary 26 years ago to farm having left the computer industry and I'm still here (Hungarian wife helps!). Seriously for a bit, most of the wine houses will have plots of less than 1/2ha. which is rather small for self sufficiency. Most wine houses have electricity, potable water is a different matter - this can be in short supply. I would say that the security of water supply should be your main concern and a dug well IMO does not meet the criteria. Most of the wine houses will be holiday homes or summer only use so expect to have to do considerable amount of upgrade to 'winterize' the place. As always with property the 3 most important things to look for are location, location and location especially if you are looking for self sufficiency.

How much do you know about self sufficiency? I don't want to 'preach to the converted' so any advice is better given with knowledge of the audience. Best to ask detailed questions.

BTW I am in the Tapolca area some 35km from Keszthely.
Thanks for reply, as for as experience goes I have just a little more than nothing, but my idea is based on this being a new life challenge and yes I am aware the chance of failure is high, but it is something I have to get out of my system. I have had my own ecommmerce business for over 14 years and it's time for me to bite the bullet and see if I have what it takes.

I may have misused the term 'self-sufficent', maybe I should replace that with 'not reliant on the state' or 'master of my own destiny. I want to live off-grid and produce the majority of my own food, electricity, and if possible own heating.

I will be on my own so realize that this makes the process harder but also that I will need less space as this is more manageable. I do realize I will need to support the project with bought goods.

I do understand that water is critical and in addition to that, the location is important. No point trying to grow root veg on rocks. I had (maybe wrongly) assumed that any well water for a vineyard would be sufficient for my needs. Although I had planned on adding rainwater catchment. Am I wrong or missing something?

Would the percentage of land for buildings also cover structures such as polytunnels? Where would I find regulations covering this?

At the same time where would I check local laws regarding the removal of fruit trees and vines?

I had missed the 'summer' nature of the property so may expand my search a little bit but when it comes to winterization do you have any suggestions?

What I need to know is what ongoing costs are likely to be. For example, if I have to pay for water, how much is this likely to be? Do I need a TV license? How is the annual council tax calculated? and costs of anything else that I may have missed?

I am sure there are many more questions to answer, but I will factor in the answers to these first and then see where that takes me.

Many thanks again

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Old Mar 18th 2021, 10:34 am
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Default Re: Where do I start?

[QUOTE=Psychosonicsid;12984949]Many thanks for reply.
I was under the impression that the house had to be in a village for residency, but wasn't aware that this required a formal postal address. How can I check this? Is there a land registry?

Internet and telephone understood I am not sure at the moment how important that is to me.

I have no desire to change the structure but assume again Historic houses have some register of sorts?

Fully aware estate agents don't play by any rules and will employ solicitor regardless of value.

Thanks again[/QUOTE
Jack is quite right about mobile coverage, it can be patchy once you get into the sticks. What ever your thoughts now IMO future proofing would dictate usable mobile signal

Formal addresses can be messy here. Every plot of land has a plot number registered in the Land Registry Office and I know 2 people whose houses are outside village boundaries and their official address is post code, whatname village, plot number nnnn. and this comes on all official documents so getting a usable address should be possible if there is no street name. AFAIK your house does not have to be in a village for residency. Rules however differ for houses in and outside villages/towns but mostly in the requirement and cost for the supply of infrastructure.

Some properties are listed but this would be noted on the Land Register document (deeds) as would any other encumbrances. Land register documents are public information, free to view, printed version is chargeable.

By way of costs I just had my car tax demand for the year, a Land Rover long wheel base diesel, comes in at 26,50 quid.
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 10:50 am
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Thumbs up Re: Where do I start?

Registry free to view. How would I go about that?

Thank you again.
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 11:08 am
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Hi, no, there is no t.v licence here !
Water is not expensive, the amount you will pay depends upon your usage, obviously, you will also pay the same amount again for sewerage if connected to the system as it's calculated on the amount of water consumed ... I get a random bill every few months which costs me around £15 but I am alone and do not use a great amount. The well in the garden is only for irrigation so I don't have to pay a well tax. My electricity bill is also low as I don't use too much, the majority of the bill is for the water heater ... my last annual bill was £200. Land tax is calculated on the size of the plot and the amount of buildings on it ... I have a fair sized garden, the house, summer kitchen, barn, outside garden toilet, pig sty, corn store ... my annual land tax is around the £35 mark. I have just paid my annual community charge, £12.50, which is a bargain as the village gives me £25 as a Christmas gift ! I would very much doubt wether you would have to pay a charge for a poly tunnel though ...
There is also a charge for rubbish collection but I have never paid this as I recycle pretty much everything so seldom have my bin emptied.
I believe you can view the registry in the local land tax office which will be located in the nearest town ... at least, that's where I went and paid for a copy of the plot and surrounding plots to mine ...

Last edited by hobgoblins; Mar 18th 2021 at 11:12 am. Reason: extra info
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:35 pm
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Originally Posted by hobgoblins
Hi, no, there is no t.v licence here !
Water is not expensive, the amount you will pay depends upon your usage, obviously, you will also pay the same amount again for sewerage if connected to the system as it's calculated on the amount of water consumed ... I get a random bill every few months which costs me around £15 but I am alone and do not use a great amount. The well in the garden is only for irrigation so I don't have to pay a well tax. My electricity bill is also low as I don't use too much, the majority of the bill is for the water heater ... my last annual bill was £200. Land tax is calculated on the size of the plot and the amount of buildings on it ... I have a fair sized garden, the house, summer kitchen, barn, outside garden toilet, pig sty, corn store ... my annual land tax is around the £35 mark. I have just paid my annual community charge, £12.50, which is a bargain as the village gives me £25 as a Christmas gift ! I would very much doubt wether you would have to pay a charge for a poly tunnel though ...
There is also a charge for rubbish collection but I have never paid this as I recycle pretty much everything so seldom have my bin emptied.
I believe you can view the registry in the local land tax office which will be located in the nearest town ... at least, that's where I went and paid for a copy of the plot and surrounding plots to mine ...
Thanks for the response. It sounds like you are doing very much what I want to do.
Can I ask has it been everything you wanted, or if you went back would you do it differently, or not at all?
How do you find the language? I deliberately choose the West / North West as more chance of being able to get by in German while I try grasp Hungarian?
Also, if not too personal, how do you find it living on your own? Is there much social life with either locals or expats?
Thanks again
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:40 pm
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Ignorance of Hungarian will be a major obstacle. What are your plans to overcome this / Sorry to put you off but Magyar is not an easy language to learn !
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 1:48 pm
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Originally Posted by scot47
Ignorance of Hungarian will be a major obstacle. What are your plans to overcome this / Sorry to put you off but Magyar is not an easy language to learn !
Thanks for your response. I do understand that I will need to learn Hungarian and also that it is a very complex language. I plan to learn by immersion in Hungarian society and taking lessons while having the back up of trying to get by in German - hence the reason to be located West and North West of Hungary. However, as a back up I will also use an iPhone translation app in the short term. If all else fails then I will revert to being a hermit. :-)

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Old Mar 18th 2021, 4:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Psychosonicsid
Thanks for the response. It sounds like you are doing very much what I want to do.
Can I ask has it been everything you wanted, or if you went back would you do it differently, or not at all?
How do you find the language? I deliberately choose the West / North West as more chance of being able to get by in German while I try grasp Hungarian?
Also, if not too personal, how do you find it living on your own? Is there much social life with either locals or expats?
Thanks again
Yes, it's everything I wanted ! With more time to look and more money to play with, I could have probably found something that didn't require so much renovation work but then again, you could spend a ridiculous amount of time looking for the ideal home and never find exactly what you are looking for ! I live in a hamlet of six houses about 1km away from the main village, the neighbours are a mix of Hungarians and Germans and all is good with them. The main village has no shop or pub which is the only minus but it's not a big deal getting the bus or driving into town. I enjoy the peace and quiet and can go into town to socialise as and when I wish to ... being an English guy around here is a bit of a novelty to the locals ! The language barrier isn't a problem whatsoever, the language itself is incredibly difficult to learn but I'm picking up bits as I go along ... many of the younger people speak English or German or both whilst the older people tend to speak either Hungarian only or Hungarian and Russian. My Hungarian neighbour is fluent in German and English so helps me to deal with officialdom, other than that, a mix of Google translate, broken German, English and playing charades, I manage very well ! Being close to the Austrian border means that German is a popular second language in town. I have no problem living on my own most of the time but can socialise when I wish although often the postman is the only person I will see all day if I choose to stay at home ... that's when the internet is important.
I would also suggest that you look at rural properties as well as wine houses ... many have large gardens and would be capable of supporting self sufficiency to a certain extent, growing your own veg etc and rural houses for sale are cheap and plentiful so lots of choice.
If I went back to do it all again ... do I have any regrets ... yes, I do ... I wish I had done it twenty years before I did ...
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 7:33 pm
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Default Re: Where do I start?

You should be aware that even as a citizen of another EU country, you still have to prove that you can support yourself if you intend to reside permanently in Hungary.
This is required if you intend staying for more that 90 days.
This includes income or sufficent cash (bank account), place of residence, it could be temporary but you need to show you have permission from the owner, medical insurance or suffiient cash to self fund medical expenses, passport and a brief summary of why you have come and what you intend to do. It is not particularly demanding but is required. Once you have done that you will then receive an EU residence card and address card. You can then stay more or less as long as you wish.
Also, when you purchase a property the solicitor will charge you a fee of 1 percent of the purchase price, plus a small fee, about 6,000 ft, for transfering the title.
One of the larger ongoing costs will be heating in the winter, it can be around 0c for several months, sometimes sub zero for a week or so. Heating costs will depend on how well insulated your house is.

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Old Mar 18th 2021, 7:47 pm
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Originally Posted by ecurb
You should be aware that even as a citizen of another EU country, you still have to prove that you can support yourself if you intend to reside permanently in Hungary.
This is required if you intend staying for more that 90 days.
This includes income or sufficent cash (bank account), place of residence, it could be temporary but you need to show you have permission from the owner, medical insurance or suffiient cash to self fund medical expenses, passport and a brief summary of why you have come and what you intend to do. It is not particularly demanding but is required. Once you have done that you will then receive an EU residence card and address card. You can then stay more or less as long as you wish.
Also, when you purchase a property the solicitor will charge you a fee of 1 percent of the purchase price, plus a small fee, about 6,000 ft, for transfering the title.
One of the larger ongoing costs will be heating in the winter, it can be around 0c for several months, sometimes sub zero for a week or so. Heating costs will depend on how well insulated your house is.
Thanks for this. I understand the residency card and the need to carry ID at all times, however, what is sufficient cash? the place of residence will be the property bought, and I would arrange medical insurance. I assume the brief summary needs to be in Hungarian - should be fun:-)

I have the solicitor's fees covered, and the transferring titles budgeted for, thankyou.
Winter is one area I am actually looking forward to. It will be good to actually have a summer and a winter rather than 11 months of rain and a couple of weeks of sun. However, the cost of heating is one area I am still trying to gauge. I hope to use wood and have a wood burner. Do you have any idea of the range of costs for good hardwood firewood?
Many thanks again
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Old Mar 18th 2021, 7:57 pm
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Default Re: Where do I start?

Originally Posted by Psychosonicsid
Thanks for this. I understand the residency card and the need to carry ID at all times, however, what is sufficient cash? the place of residence will be the property bought, and I would arrange medical insurance. I assume the brief summary needs to be in Hungarian - should be fun:-)

I have the solicitor's fees covered, and the transferring titles budgeted for, thankyou.
Winter is one area I am actually looking forward to. It will be good to actually have a summer and a winter rather than 11 months of rain and a couple of weeks of sun. However, the cost of heating is one area I am still trying to gauge. I hope to use wood and have a wood burner. Do you have any idea of the range of costs for good hardwood firewood?
Many thanks again
Sufficient cash seems to depend on which immigration officer you get on the day and which way the wind is blowing but £1500 and upwards seems to be about correct.
I use wood burners for heating and am lucky in so much that there are plenty of fallen trees in the woods behind my house to cut up and use. You can buy ready seasoned and cut wood by the crate for around £100, reckon on at least 8 - 10 of these to get you through the long cold winters ... but many people buy what are basically tree trunks minus the bark and cut those up ... slightly cheaper than the crated pre cut logs ...
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