wheatsheaf

Hi Marty,

would you have the London lawyer's details? A practice that has had experience with this particular issue has a headstart with the knowledge of how things stand and could be worthwhile approaching in the near future.

Thanks.

noni

Have you read this article - dare I say Now What RBI http://oheraldo.in/node/26078

[url]http://oheraldo.in/node/26078

Douglas M

Hi Noni,

The article concerned puts forward logical arguments, although it considers only the local issues and not the national. In my experience of living in india , logic is in short supply and seldom applied, so dont expect a reasonable outcome from the FN point of view.

Expect a reasonable outcome from the indian point of view though, ie exclude and deter as many FN long term stayers as possible.

Under most legal systems it is not a defence to plead "that you didnt know the law".

The content of FEMA is readily available, clearly written and is printed in english so no excuse there.

I suspect most FN transgressions involve the issue of residency, ie FNs may have entered into a sales deed when they did not qualify to do so as indian residents.

If they subsequently registered the deed they would have also signed an affidavit stating that they had complied with FEMA. At least two offences committed here if they were non resident at the time. A reasonable thing for the authorities to do under these circumstances would be to fine the offenders and void the sale.

In the case of more serious offences RBI has the power of confiscation, i feel there are few cases in this category.

In the cases involving company rather than personal ownership, there may have been transgressions under the companies act or tax evasion. Foreign owned businesses have many hurdles to jump and permissions to obtain, they are easily brought down by any of the departments involved.


kind regards
douglas

KKK

Hello there everyone

first a little about myself and how I got here. I am an Indian, born and brought up in Delhi. I have been interested in Indo-Portuguese history for the last 15 years, and have been visiting Goa off and on for the last 15 years to slog it out in the archives in Panaji. For the last 2-3 years I have been thinking/planning/looking for a small apartment in Goa so that every time I go there I don't have to confront the accommodation issue.
Finally, I took the plunge in June, i.e. last month and booked through an Agent - Axiom Estate in one of the properties in Goa. Having done that soon, (once the initial excitement waned!) I was afraid. Fear began to grip me, had done the right thing? Should I have trusted the agent - is the agent dependable what exactly is the reputation of the builder etc. so I googled for Axiom estate and got a reference on this site (the message said that they were happy with Axiom). So that’s how I got here on this forum. Once I was here I began to read. So let me admit I am an outsider and if you think I should not be here, let me know.
While I am not an affected party I can somehow feel the anguish, the pain, the frustration and anger along with the understanding that is oozing from this forum. Also I learnt a lot from this site regarding the Indian laws etc. I must admit that I was also curious what the FNS feel about Goa and the Indians. Also I guess i read so many of your posts that now I see many of you especially Douglas, Noni, Remy, Tony P, TDk and many other more as 'real people' rather than merely 'bloggers'.
The reason why I registered is because I couldn’t stop myself from adding a few thoughts of my own. Although I know next to nothing of the real estate laws and lawyers in Goa or for that matter even in Delhi, I would like to think I do understand at least something about Indians including Goans.

So here it goes. While I don't think anyone can be sure about how this whole mess regarding ownership of properties for FNs would resolve in the end. I would agree with the general tone on the forum here "Don't get in if you are not already in'. But those of you who are IN especially Noni, my reading about India is that while there is lot of mess here, in the end the truth prevails. They really test your patience, but one should never give up. I don’t know why but I feel that while it may take anything from 3-5 years, you will be allowed to retain your properties and while they would create problems on the VISA front for the next few years, as long as you have done everything by the book, after the storm has passed they would also give you the x-VISAs so my advise would be don’t loose heart, don't give up and be patient.

Best Wishes

KKK






Douglas
Sound Analysis on the law. I agree with you that anybody who has violated the FEMA would have to pay fines etc. But I feel "no FNs in Goa" is a temporary phenomenon. brought to the forefront by the elections and would die down with time.

regards

KKK

Douglas M

Hi KKK,

Nice to hear from you, but i have to disagree, the main issue here is not a local one as most people think, it is a national issue.

There are some very bright people in india who can see where the clash of civilisations is going and are already taking preventative measures.

India has borders with their previously fellow indians in pakistan and bangladesh, that could become war fronts at any moment. (China is another and separate issue)

There is also the internal situation, why would any country allow enclaves of foreigners to establish themselves and potentially cause security problems at some time in the future? FEMA already restricts the activities of foreigners for this reason, citizens of pakistan, china and bangladesh in particular. With the stroke of a pen brits can be included in this higher risk category, or they can operate a hidden agenda and effectively include them (in order to exclude them) as they are now.

India does not have the recourses to wage counter terrorism against a few lunatics embedded amongst enclaves of foreigners, as britain and other countries are forced to do, but much prefers the easier and cheaper prevention option.

Thats why sadly it can only become more difficult, rather than easier, to live or work in someone elses country.

regards
douglas

KKK

Hello Douglas

I still think you are reading too much into it. But that is my opinion, you are entitled to yours. Lets see how things turn out in a few years and we will know who was closer to the truth.

regards

KKK

wheatsheaf

Hi all,

yet again Douglas has zoomed in on the core of this whole FN property issue. It is a question of "local" ie Goa law implementation, versus Delhi's "Central" govt implementation. Dare I say that there is less of a nationalist ego and more of a global 'partnership' outlook in Goa from what Ive seen.

The startling thing about it is the impotence of the Goans in this whole scenario. Apparently land laws have been changed over the decades and made it financially cumbersome for Goans to retain or maintain their properties, and with non Goans now manning virtually all government departments in Goa it is almost impossible to avoid questionable influence in any transactions that requires their involvement. If there is deliberate fraud in property deals to date,then wouldnt complicity be at very high national levels?

Many will offer platitudes. Sorry KKK. Rather ominous name. What are you researching in Goa? Ive met Delhi'ites in Goa who spend months on end at the archives office on behalf of millionaires checking out land titles, births/deaths etc in an effort to obtain vacant untended land. Hope you can pass on a few tips to this forum!!!. Id like to buy!!!.

KKK

Dear Whatsheaf

When I said research I meant academic reserach! The broad subject of my research is 17th century trade in the Indian Ocean and the Portuguese role in it, so in some sense its more about Sea rather than "land" Sorry to disappoint you in more ways than one !!

On a different note I would be glad to find any millionaire who would be interested in my research, it would save me lot of heart burn which comes with applying for research grants.

regards

KKK

noni

Hi, KKK welcome,

Having just come from a funeral yesterday, feeling down, I found the article "Now What RBI" and I thought is somebody actually listening?
The article puts into words what I have been asking - Who is actually at fault here? why punish someone when a local has deceived them. etc. At the moment, being extremely selfish I don't care about the rest of India and their law, only what is happening in Goa.
I know I am going to have a B'@@+@""" from my good friend Douglas, but I am having a me, me, me. day
With hindsight, we should have delved deeper into the buying process, but listened to legal advisors and went with the Goan dream.
Until I came across this site I did not know how ignorant we were.

Am feeling very territorial to-day, all I want is to know asap what is going to happen to us - the years are passing, and the pyre is waiting, don't want to have this hanging over our heads.

Hi, boys bring out the 'noff! What has happened to Vadim?

KKK

Hi Noni,

sorry to hear you are feeling low.
Butr as I said in my first post, which incidently I wanted to post in "buyers beware" thread in reply to your post but because of some technical glitch I suppose, I could not post it there (I tired thrice).

But to repeat what I had said in my first post, I think since you have done nothing wrong it would be unjust if you were not allowed to stay on

best wishes

KKK

Just to quote from my first post

Remy-Ireland

Hi KKK,
Welcome to the Forum and thanks for your input.

Like many on the site would like to think that what you have said will be a true outcome, and time will indeed tell the tale.

Its good to see more new forum members giving their opinions and views. Everybody has their own interpretation of events regarding property purchase, goan laws etc and by reading the threads and posts on this forum will be able to make up their own mind regarding same.

My own personal view is that if your not a PIO/NRI then hold off and dont risk property purchase at this time in Goa. Its tempting i know especially when one sees the 'bargain price' of property compared with say property prices in the UK etc..... but its not a bargain if what you end up with is nothing more than an expensive rental agreement sold to you at a freehold price.

Remember 'if it sounds too good to be true......then it probably is'

Anyway welcome aboard KKK and dont consider yourself an outsider as everyone is more than welcome except those sneaky property developers, lawyers and estate agents who are mis-informing expats and stealing their money. Remember the law of Karma!

Kind Regards,
Remy

Remy-Ireland

Hi Noni,

Cheer up my dearest.........all good things come to those who wait.
Its Ok to feel territorial in fact its part of human nature........and also part of the reason why the property fiasco in Goa is the way it is. Goans are now starting to become very territorial and probably with good reason but like your nesw clip said, they cant put decent FNs in the same basket as Drug and Crime Lords from..........i dont like to say Russia as there are many decent Russian tourists who are also starting to feel victimised in Goa.

Worst case scenario is that when the smoke clears and the dust settles you will be permitted to sell and then you can just rent in the future....but i dont believe it will come to that.

My goodness woman........its a bit early for the noff.......i thought i was bad. Hang on in there,

Kind Regards,
Remy

Douglas M

Hi KKK,

Sounds like an interesting subject and so indirectly relevant. Without those early explorers , warmongers/ traders/ pirates/ slavers we would not be having this debate today, as we wouldnt have directly benefited from the trickle down of knowledge and wealth that they created.

I am sure science , politics, navigation, religion, accidents, fate, gold and spices also played their part in shaping what we now know as goa.

Similarly, if the now usa had not defeated us in the war of independence, britain may not have shifted its colonial activities to india and all our stories might be different again.

regards
douglas

Douglas M

Hi Noni,

I only have sympathy and affection for you, you are truly a victim of circumstances.

Douglas is simply saying that you should try and remove your wish list from any investment equation and deal with the facts. Analysing and diagnosing the available facts leads to certainty, thats positive.

The alternative is uncertainty,thats negative and gnaws away at you, draining your resource.

I appreciate how hard it is to understand the relevance of that statement and i know it is even harder to implement it.

However, if you can do it even momentarily, it no longer becomes them and us, right or wrong, good or bad, gain and loss, past and present and more importantly, it doesnt hurt so much. It just is.

kind regards
douglas

noni

Hi, Douglas,

Thanks - not worried about the investment issue - I am not materialistic - what has gone has gone, it was only the price of a car, and they devalue quickly. Had five years pleasure from the Apartment. It is the mental pressure, I cannot be like 90% of the men I know who bury their heads in the sand. I know my better half is right (for once) there is nothing we can do about it so stop worrying.

My grandfather had the right saying
"Don't worry about tomorrow, until it comes"

Just having a bad day - possibly due to sun deficiency.

At least our friend looks like he is getting his money back from Acron, which is good very news. How is Mrs. Demart?

regards Noni