Quote:
Originally Posted by afaiknow
Bipat, why home in on the Congress Party?As I'm sure you're already well informed - take a quick look at the historical cross the floor "alleigances"/ defections of present and past Ministers in Goa alone, at one time or another they've been in virtually all parties, when not they have set up their own or stood as "independant" viz. Anil Salgaonkar, leasee of the River Princess - that here is no such concept as a political party representing a united manifesto.

All is self interest and a craven clutching to power for corrupt self serving reasons, and nepotism is the new mantra; Babush & Jennifer et al, the Vaz clan in Leicester,UK.

Are you showing BJP colours? They are just as corrupt and thieving. Look at the record.In the Uk, if a minority were to be threatened with confiscation of their property through retrospective implementation of a directive in a rogue State (NOT by a law from Central Government) there would be an all party House of Commons debate free from the directives of the party whips, and protests of 'racism' on the streets, but maybe that's because millions would be affected and not a few hundred whiteys within a population in Goa of approx 1.7 million persons.

Interesting that "call me Dave" Cameron was hosting a Diwali dinner at No 10 while the eurozone is in meltdown, China is in slowdown, USA is a basket case, and the UK has been dragged back to the early 1970's.

Do the highest echelons of Indian government celebrate Christmas, Easter, St Andrews, David, George or Paddy Day in similar manner?

BIPAT
Not sure this is the right thread for it but I would like to answer your Questions.
Perhaps Noni can move it to another thread.

By the way have just been listening to a really good debate on Barkha Dutt's evening NDTV programe about electoral reform. I would recommend this programme.

Why home in on Congress? How is it democratic to have a Dynasty of leaders popular with the uneducated because of their surname? Sanjay prepared for power, Rajiv pushed into it without any political experience, his widow now president of the party and actually in control, the PM under her thumb. Now Rahul being groomed. More important is their money power. Is buying the votes democracy?
I am not a particular supporter of BJP I am not naturally a 'right-winger', (which leads me to protest when there are right-wing views on this forum). I would dispute though that as a party they are thieves, the leaders have some integrity, although I would agree with you about about others lower down. They haven't actually had much chance since independence, only brief sessions in power. They don't have funds in the same way as Congress.
The whole system is a mess which is why the momentum of the Anna Hazare movement must be kept going.
The problem of expat property is very much a local issue and unfortunately the chief minister is one of the worst. (and Sonia needs him).
I will leave the rest of your post for others to discuss.

You can carry on here.

Firstly, I do not subscribe to the newly given title of this thread. The thread will in any case be short lived and so my comments will be happily irrelevant in short time.

If the electoral population of India are unable to discern between a coincidence of name between that of "the father of the nation" and an empowered dynasty who at every opportunity resort to propaganda (perhaps more gently described as; a self righteous mandate to obfiscate the truth regarding their heritage) to pomote such deliberate confusion, that is a failure of the Indian education system and political process, and maybe not always "the Italian woman" is to blame.

IMHO, she is lucky to be still alive; not yet assassinated.

When you have an electorate mostly using a poorly inked thumbprint, and the armed guardians of the local polling stations are in the pocket of the already decided incumbent, what do you expect? Democracy???

It was yourself who homed in on Congress as the root of most evils within India; e.g. money power and nepotism.

I am not in disagreement: it is a political mess in a fledgling nation, riddled with corruption and yet reaching out to buy it's way around the globe and be respected as a trustworthy economic and cultural superpower.

My comment regards political cross party defection and political money motivated self interest should have been specifically directed towards Goa - forgive me, I lack the tenacity and energy to dredge up the facts and reportage on India in general (as I said, check the record in Goa; Governor's Rule, Rane , Parrikar, etc.).

I have been long term personal witness of local "money power" being used at elections by one and all (i.e. all cross partry candidates) to gain the votes of extended families in Goa, and often times that's as little as a sewing machine or a bicycle (to be shared!).

At panchayat level, we got a couple of pre election unwelcome rumblers, Nelson's eye was turned towards some major buiding violations and a street sign advertising the sarpanch's latest exotic hotel adventure. I still curse those rumblers.

From my own witness of the Anna Hazare protests during this monsoon in Goa, the processsions, road blocking miles long taxi blockades which trailed all the way from heartland Siolim through Calangute, Candolim and onwards to Panjim), they were mainly saffron Hindu and appeared to have already been hijacked by the BJP, no matter how well intended or innocent the participants.

You write as though you disagree with my answer when in fact we seem to agree on many points. When I said "Why Congress" I was repeating your question in order to answer it!!
Yes there is a failure in the education system they apparently learn very little history in many schools (can't speak for all obviously).
It isn't actually most of the electorate using thumb print to vote, all have their thumbs inked to prevent them voting twice.
As to Sonia of course it is not all her fault, I just wonder why she has turned into a copy of her mother-in- law when you would have expected her to 'run a mile' from involvement. But the party in general seem to do as she says, the PM is useless, can't even give a decent speech.
I do disagree with you about the anti corruption movement, but we will have to wait and see how successful it is, they are also asking for electoral reform.
What do you mean by "saffron Hindu" ? (just a question).

It is disingenuous to affect a lack of understanding of what I meant by "saffron Hindu" and I know you already know the answer to your question which as you say was "only a question", so this is only an answer!

Let's watch this 'anti corruption movement' and see how it unfolds politically and in the material day to day lives of Indians and those very very few foreigners who spend prolonged parts of their lives in India against alll the adversity of a secondary racist layer of corruption largely based on skin colour and an often erroneous assumption of great Western wealth (because we can afford to fly there and back, right!).

I have no self interest in India's enduring reputation as one of the most corrupt countries in the world (yes, they are NOT the most infamous, and corruption IS endemic - in "advanced" countries it goes by other names, but is still evidently there - but perceived and actual corruption remains a stumbling block towards inward investment and trade); I have more interest in India cleaning up it's act and being a trustworthy place where a uniformity of rule of law is more than a distant ambition in the minds and deeds of a few.

My reference to thumb prints was in no way meant to be pejorative/ demeaning. There are many in high authority who are unable to sign a name.

My registered sale deed in Goa has my full ink hand prints all over it in blue ink with duplicate signatures and monogram, and double ledgers, and all original, tax paid receipted in my name and possesion.

I really was not being 'disingenuous' I did not know what you meant, it is not a term I have heard; having looked it up I see it can be used to describe ultra right wing Hindus. I was not in Goa during the march so cannot judge; you will know what you saw. On TV showing of other cities and interviews with members of the crowd most seem to be ordinary people from all walks of life.
BJP are bound to make what use of the movement they can; that's politics.

As to your second post about thumb prints, was not insulted, why would I be? I was just explaining why all are 'inked' in elections. I hear enough complaints from female rels. "It is unsightly, they deliberately put on too much and it takes days to wear off" etc. etc.

The BJP are just a front umbrella organization for the RSS. As for the Safron Surge, well, you have to go back as far as 1857 to understand their motivation to bring on Hindutva (?) Congress and its allies represent the so-called poor and Dalits.Its the intellectual party.The BJP and its allies represent the party of the ignorant and opportunistic-read criminal elements. But both are corrupt to the core.For me personally a nightmare scenario would be Modi, The Monster of Gujarat, in power in Delhi.Hes about as likable as Hitler on a wet Sunday in February.Over 200 of the 600 MPs in Delhi have been charge sheeted or convicted of serious crimes, fraud and murder being the most popular.Remember it was the RSS who killed Gandhi.Politics in India is a cess pit of opportunism.

The same applies to State governments, on the criminality front.

The really worrying thing is that Modi stands a very high chance of achieving that position, his image is constantly being polished and honed for that purpose, along with support from his powerful mates like Rajan Tata........


.

With respect I would disagree about the RSS, they have been more of a weight on the shoulders of BJP, not helped by Advani's refusal to dissociate from them.
Not that I support the BJP, particularly Advani although Vajpayee seemed honourable, both are now aged.
I am not sure why you think their supporters are ignorant or criminal? what evidence for that?
As to Modi you seem to believe all that Congress wants you to believe, they have continually been after him, Supreme Court says no evidence what the truth is how can we know?
The MPs with criminal charges are mostly Congress members, this is one of the complaints of the Hazare camp.
Personally I think a non-corrupt non-dynastic Congress party would be the ideal
but obviously very unlikely!!!!

I really named this thread incorrectly - I just wanted to get the comments out of Buyer Beware - please open a thread in your own name Bipat where things like this can be discussed. Thanks

I don't understand why, Noni, does it matter who initiates a thread? It has resulted in some interesting discussion. I think afaiknow's name is at the head of the list of posters.

Hazare is BJP Bipat. Personally i don't think its valid to allege that Congress are more corrupt than the BJP. Both parties have an organization that encompasses a whole rainbow of State and even regional political parties.Its almost an alphabetic soup in India.So many things to take into account when observing Indian politics.How do you account for political figures like Jayalalitha in Tamil Nadu openly bribing the electorate with saris and now free laptops.She was charge sheeted for corruption in the early 90s and nothing has happened since. The DMK are just as bad because the telecom scam was perpetrated by one their members.Mayawati and Mamata Baneerjee both incompetent and one certainly very corrupt.My own personal view on this phenomenon is that with out the connivance of the under paid Indian Police Service corruption would be negligent and easily controlled.But if you look at what happened here in the UK over the phone hacking and the police giving journalists confidential information for money, its what happens when politicians get too close to guardians of law and order.Corruption and institutional corruption on a grand scale.

You certainly did, it should be "Congress v BJP" with a little v..........


.

That is what Congress are alleging along with other things, there is a lot in his past that I have read about that is worrying, but if the 'movement' does some good it will help.
Jayalalitha seems to be in favour again, she is known by her locals as the "Buffalo" (for obvious size reasons!!)

I just meant for one of you academics to start a thread for discussions with a suitable title.