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A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Old Dec 24th 2023, 2:08 pm
  #16  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Having now skimmed through the thread from the beginning, I haven't seen much mention of your own carte de séjour. You need to find out the procedure for obtaining this. Since your wife is French your cds will be granted de plein droit but you need to follow the correct procedures to get one. Suggest you check the procedures just before you arrive because I have a notion that the vie privée et familale process is going to be tweaked slightly in the new projet de loi immigration that you've probably read about. I believe that currently foreign spouses moving to France don't necessarily need to enter on a visa and they can apply for the CdS on arrival, but under the new laws which will probably be implemented early next year it's proposed that they will be required to enter France on a visa. Could be wrong but it would be wise to keep tabs on this I think, you don't want to start off with the préfecture sending you straight back to the UK to get a visa...
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Old Dec 24th 2023, 3:14 pm
  #17  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Ahhh the 'social charge' is interesting!

Is this what you mean?
Sounds like I need a 'carte de sejour' - you're right ... ... ... Thanks for that.

Carte de Sejour for Family Members of a European Citizen

Family members of a European citizen that join him or her in France do not have to apply for a residence permit if they are Europeans as well. However, if they are non-European then they will need to apply for a permit within 3 months of their arrival in France, which allows them to stay in France for a maximum of five years, after which they are eligible to apply for a permanent residence permit.

Last edited by SB_UK; Dec 24th 2023 at 3:17 pm.
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Old Dec 24th 2023, 3:50 pm
  #18  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by SB_UK


Is this what you mean?



No that is the family reunification process for spouse of non French EU citizen.
As spouse of a French citizen you need the vie privée et familiale which is a different process.
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...able%202%20ans

Edit - I'm not shouting - I do not know why my post is so huge, I didn't do it on purpose

Last edited by EuroTrash; Dec 24th 2023 at 3:52 pm.
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Old Dec 24th 2023, 5:05 pm
  #19  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
No that is the family reunification process for spouse of non French EU citizen.
As spouse of a French citizen you need the vie privée et familiale which is a different process.
https://www.service-public.fr/partic...able%202%20ansEdit - I'm not shouting - I do not know why my post is so huge, I didn't do it on purpose
I've been having that problem here, there's usually a way of getting rid of formatting or seeing the code to fiddle with the formatting - but can't work out how to do either here :-).
Over 20 years on Jelsoft/vBulletin forums - started in 2003!
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 6:46 am
  #20  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
I believe that currently foreign spouses moving to France don't necessarily need to enter on a visa and they can apply for the CdS on arrival, but under the new laws which will probably be implemented early next year it's proposed that they will be required to enter France on a visa. Could be wrong but it would be wise to keep tabs on this I think, you don't want to start off with the préfecture sending you straight back to the UK to get a visa...
In 2023 the French son of a friend arrived with his South Korean wife who had a visitor's visa.
He thought that because she was married to a Frenchman in the French consuate in SK that she would be allowed to stay.
Wrong. She had to return to SK and apply for a spouse visa before returning to France.
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 9:39 am
  #21  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Hi
– Thanks for all of the help but I’m really hopelessly stuck on the ‘Social Charges’.
This is the single only factor that determines whether we give up the idea of moving to France.

I’m going to give an example below – is it OK for me to ask if it seems to make sense?

Using simple figures.

Assuming
100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually)
100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)
100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually)

But before UK State pension age (ie no S1) vs after UK State pension age.

So – no income tax is payable because 9k Euro is less than the 10k bracket for income tax payment.

However, all manner!!! of ‘Social charges’ are payable.

According to the table in: www blevinsfranks.com/French-social-charges it looks like there’s a 9% social charge on pensions and 17% social charge on savings interest and annuities.
Personally a bit confused on what 'pension' means as I'd have thought tha a 'pension drawdown' and an annuity were also 'pensions' as is interest on savings if 'inactive' - but ... ... ...

Would this mean then that the Social charge pre-67 and post-67 would be?

pre-67

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually



Post-67 (when we have S1)

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)- – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually



Some sites suggest that if we opt out of the French health system then we pay 0% Social charges pre-67?
We'd have to rent in the UK to get healthcare if that then happens I guess.

ie then pre-67

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)- – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 10:24 am
  #22  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by cyrian
In 2023 the French son of a friend arrived with his South Korean wife who had a visitor's visa.
He thought that because she was married to a Frenchman in the French consuate in SK that she would be allowed to stay.
Wrong. She had to return to SK and apply for a spouse visa before returning to France.
You are surprised at that? Visas are required to ENTER a country, permission to stay (or other terminology) can be granted later.
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 10:31 am
  #23  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by SB_UK
Hi
– Thanks for all of the help but I’m really hopelessly stuck on the ‘Social Charges’.
This is the single only factor that determines whether we give up the idea of moving to France.

I’m going to give an example below – is it OK for me to ask if it seems to make sense?

Using simple figures.

Assuming
100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually)
100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)
100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually)

But before UK State pension age (ie no S1) vs after UK State pension age.

So – no income tax is payable because 9k Euro is less than the 10k bracket for income tax payment.

However, all manner!!! of ‘Social charges’ are payable.

According to the table in: www blevinsfranks.com/French-social-charges it looks like there’s a 9% social charge on pensions and 17% social charge on savings interest and annuities.
Personally a bit confused on what 'pension' means as I'd have thought tha a 'pension drawdown' and an annuity were also 'pensions' as is interest on savings if 'inactive' - but ... ... ...

Would this mean then that the Social charge pre-67 and post-67 would be?

pre-67

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 17% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually



Post-67 (when we have S1)

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)- – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually



Some sites suggest that if we opt out of the French health system then we pay 0% Social charges pre-67?
We'd have to rent in the UK to get healthcare if that then happens I guess.

ie then pre-67

100k Euro in private pension pot (3k Euro drawdown annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in a Savings pot (3k Euro in interest annually)- – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually

100k Euro in an annuity pot (3k Euro income annually) – pay 0% ‘social charges’ on 3k annually
Can't comment on the figures I'm afraid because those are not my sources of income so I have no experience. Others will be able to help. But a few general comments, for what they're worth.

Healthcare. It is obligatory to have healthcare in place, living in France without is not permitted. Some websites say that you are exempted from social charges if you have private health insurance, some say it has to be an S1. In practice, full private healthcare does seem to be accepted. But you have to prove that you have alternative cover in place. Opting out of state healthcare and having nothing in place is not acceptable.

Annuities. You need to be a bit careful with these. Annuities as they exist in the UK, do not exist in France, so there is no exactly equivalent in the fiscal code and there can be some disagreement on whether they should be treated as pensions or whether they should be treated as investments. What most people do is declare them as pension whilst being aware that the fisc might potentially challenge this and reclassify it. Usually if the annuity was bought from a pension fund and taken at pensionable age the fisc are happy to treat it as a pension. I have an annuity and after discussing it with the tax office they said Declare it as a pension. But whether or not they will accept an annuity as a pension in the case of a person who is not near retirement age I do not know.

General. I would be wary about planning for the next five years or more based on the 2022 tax code. French tax rules are more nimble than in the UK where the rules are pretty much set in stone and every proposed change is announced well in advance, there is a fuss over it and often it gets overturned. In France the rules are tweaked each year, the tax forms are tweaked each year, and sometimes fairly significant changes can be introduced, retrospectively in the sense that nobody knows yet exactly what the rules and thresholds will be for the 2024 tax exercise, and those are the rules that will apply to 2023's income.

You're doing the right thing finding all this out in advance.

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Old Dec 25th 2023, 11:14 am
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by cyrian
In 2023 the French son of a friend arrived with his South Korean wife who had a visitor's visa.
He thought that because she was married to a Frenchman in the French consuate in SK that she would be allowed to stay.
Wrong. She had to return to SK and apply for a spouse visa before returning to France.
I have no idea of the ins and outs of it. From reading the projet de loi it gave the impression that currently there are circumstance where if certain conditions are met the need to have a visa is waived, however this is felt to be causing confusion and leaving a loophole open for people to enter France unchecked, hence the proposal for the visa to become obligatory with no exceptions..
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 12:45 pm
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Can't comment on the figures I'm afraid because those are not my sources of income so I have no experience. Others will be able to help. But a few general comments, for what they're worth.

Healthcare. It is obligatory to have healthcare in place, living in France without is not permitted. Some websites say that you are exempted from social charges if you have private health insurance, some say it has to be an S1. In practice, full private healthcare does seem to be accepted. But you have to prove that you have alternative cover in place. Opting out of state healthcare and having nothing in place is not acceptable.

Annuities. You need to be a bit careful with these. Annuities as they exist in the UK, do not exist in France, so there is no exactly equivalent in the fiscal code and there can be some disagreement on whether they should be treated as pensions or whether they should be treated as investments. What most people do is declare them as pension whilst being aware that the fisc might potentially challenge this and reclassify it. Usually if the annuity was bought from a pension fund and taken at pensionable age the fisc are happy to treat it as a pension. I have an annuity and after discussing it with the tax office they said Declare it as a pension. But whether or not they will accept an annuity as a pension in the case of a person who is not near retirement age I do not know.

General. I would be wary about planning for the next five years or more based on the 2022 tax code. French tax rules are more nimble than in the UK where the rules are pretty much set in stone and every proposed change is announced well in advance, there is a fuss over it and often it gets overturned. In France the rules are tweaked each year, the tax forms are tweaked each year, and sometimes fairly significant changes can be introduced, retrospectively in the sense that nobody knows yet exactly what the rules and thresholds will be for the 2024 tax exercise, and those are the rules that will apply to 2023's income.

You're doing the right thing finding all this out in advance.
Wow! Thanks for replying today :-) Really appreciated.

Really useful info in your post.

So - I think from what you've written - that an annuity potentially shifts from 17% to 0% 'social charges' at 67 and S1.

Sooooo what we have to do is survive on savings+interest for the next 10 years and just leave the pension alone.

All I now need to work out is what the 'Social charge' is on Livret A and also on a standard savings account.
So the Livret A is income tax free but presumably not 'Social charge' free and pays 3% currently.
I think we can find standard online savings accounts in France paying 3% too, at least currently.

So - we don't have to pay income tax on the Livret A but I'm guessing that we have to pay 'Social charge' at 17% rather than 10%.
And I'm guessing that we have to pay all interest we get on a standard savings account at 17% 'Social charge'.

I think the 'killer' here is the: PdS (Prélèvement de Solidarité) which adds 7.5% onto the 'Social charge' bill.

Again - as somebody who has no clue about any of this finance 'stuff' - it seems a bit silly to charge tax on interest if interest is based on infllation - that is it's just there to stop the money that you've already earned from depreciating ... ... ...

Last edited by SB_UK; Dec 25th 2023 at 12:53 pm.
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 1:39 pm
  #26  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

So ... ... ... disovered that all of the 'tax free' savings accounts in France (listed on the page below like the Livret A) are Tax and Social charges free.
'https://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/banking/savings/regulated-savings-accounts'

- so - now just to find the Income Tax (presumably just determined by income) and Social Charge (potentially as much as 17.8% regardless of savings pot / interest earned ) on a standard savings account?
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 3:03 pm
  #27  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

So - the last part of the period between 57-67 is here I think:

https://www.french-property.com/guid...stment-income/

It suggests 12.8% + 17.2% tax ie 30% 'flat tax' on savings however if we're <10k Euro then we can get away without paying the 12.8% as we're in the 0% bracket - so 17.2% tax on saving's interest.

That's up to 67 covered :-) -- now over 67?
- it looks as though the advice I've received on the forum is that the UK State pension + Annuity are considered as 'Pensions' and so as long as we have form S1 - taxed at 'Social charge' 0%.

However - after 67 - does anybody know how private pension pot drawdowns if performed in the UK are treated by France for 'Social charge' and how savings whether in the UK/France are treated in France but only relating to this 'Social charge'?
If we eg take a 10k Euro annual pension drawdown or have an eg 10k Euro interest - whether the two are just blanket 'Social charge' taxed at 17.2% despite being inactive/retired?
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 3:49 pm
  #28  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by EuroTrash
Can't comment on the figures I'm afraid because those are not my sources of income so I have no experience. Others will be able to help. But a few general comments, for what they're worth.

Healthcare. It is obligatory to have healthcare in place, living in France without is not permitted. Some websites say that you are exempted from social charges if you have private health insurance, some say it has to be an S1. In practice, full private healthcare does seem to be accepted. But you have to prove that you have alternative cover in place. Opting out of state healthcare and having nothing in place is not acceptable.

Annuities. You need to be a bit careful with these. Annuities as they exist in the UK, do not exist in France, so there is no exactly equivalent in the fiscal code and there can be some disagreement on whether they should be treated as pensions or whether they should be treated as investments. What most people do is declare them as pension whilst being aware that the fisc might potentially challenge this and reclassify it. Usually if the annuity was bought from a pension fund and taken at pensionable age the fisc are happy to treat it as a pension. I have an annuity and after discussing it with the tax office they said Declare it as a pension. But whether or not they will accept an annuity as a pension in the case of a person who is not near retirement age I do not know.

General. I would be wary about planning for the next five years or more based on the 2022 tax code. French tax rules are more nimble than in the UK where the rules are pretty much set in stone and every proposed change is announced well in advance, there is a fuss over it and often it gets overturned. In France the rules are tweaked each year, the tax forms are tweaked each year, and sometimes fairly significant changes can be introduced, retrospectively in the sense that nobody knows yet exactly what the rules and thresholds will be for the 2024 tax exercise, and those are the rules that will apply to 2023's income.

You're doing the right thing finding all this out in advance.
I think it's about £50 per month for private healthcare - so now to find if that means anything to reducing 'Social Charges' on private pension drawdowns or Interest on savings :-) between the age of 57-67.
Going through so many sites that am feeling addled - it doesn't help that all of this stuff is so very difficult to read.
S1 Exempt Households
The basic rule that applies on pension income is that you are only liable to pay the charges if you are affiliated to the system of compulsory health insurance in France.
https://www.french-property.com/guid...l-welfare-levy
I understand the confusion that can arise in this matter. Many individuals receive pension income through “drawdown” arrangements, such as a UK SIPP (Self-Invested Personal Pension). However, it’s important to recognise that this represents a pool of invested funds, and any withdrawals made should not be classified as regular income. Instead, they must be declared as pension income, following the applicable regulations.
https://www.kentingtons.com/news-blog/tax-planning/french-tax-return-mistakes/
I think s/he's suggesting that a drawdown is treated like a straight pension so no Social charges after 67?

Although I can't get the S1 till 67, I can get private health care (£40 per month) - which means 'Social charge' exemption?
So - does this change the 'Social charge' between 57-67 meaning that the 17.2% 'Social charge' on private pension drawdown and on saving's interest reduces to 0?

Since 2019, individuals under the care of another state or those not covered by the French healthcare system may find themselves exempt from paying both the CSG and the CRDS. When it comes to investment income, this exemption amounts to 9.2% and 0.5% respectfully.Now, let’s look into this further. This means the social charges are reduced to a more manageable 7.5%, with only the prélèvement de solidarité to be paid.
I think this means that if we're <67 >67 then we have to pay 7.5% not 17.2% Social charge on interest payments on Savings? as long as we have private healthcare or S1.

-*-

All of which means (unless I'm hopelessly out of my depth here) that -


before 67 (with private health care)
  • Saving's interest - 7.5% Social charge payable
after 67 (with S1)
  • UK state pension + annuity + Personal pension drawdown - no Social charge payable
  • Saving's interest - 7.5% Social charge payable

-*-

If that works! then I'm back in business :-).

I know that I shouldn't be asking all of these questions here but I trust you guys - really struggle with the 'finance' people - their sites are filled with 'Scare' stories which seem designed to push us under their control.

Promise - that's me all 'asked' :-) out - will though compile a final report like the previous one I've just generated for filing here ... ... ... for people to read.

The admin that we're required to go through just to get a garden in the sun!

Last edited by SB_UK; Dec 25th 2023 at 5:46 pm.
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 6:45 pm
  #29  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

Originally Posted by SB_UK
I think it's about £50 per month for private healthcare
That doesn't sound realistic for full private healthcare to be honest. If you're in your 50s you'd be pushed to get good mutuelle cover (i.e top up) for that. I would get a few quotes to check the figure before you set too much store on it.
Usually when the question of being à la charge or not à la charge is being discussed, people seem to conclude that it only works to their advantage to get private health cover if they have a seriously high level of passive income.
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Old Dec 25th 2023, 6:58 pm
  #30  
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Default Re: A Thread on Tax for simple-minded people

SB, I don’t think that £40 per month can possibly be for the kind of fully comprehensive health insurance that would be needed for you to not be considered « à la charge du sécu » (and therefore exempt from prélèvements sociaux).
I have private health insurance through work and my employer currently pays half but if they didn’t, the premiums would be over €600 per month for myself and my husband.

Perhaps the £40 per month is for top-up insurance, ie a mutuelle? To cover the 30% of the cost that isn’t covered by the sécu (reduced to 20% in Alsace).

Are you saying you’re planning to live in France on €9000 per year or have I misunderstood?
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