astitchingtime

I am moving to France next month. Last night i just finalised my rental property negotiations (and goodness gracious it's a mansion compared to here for much less per month!!) I digress; The owner (British living over here) has stated that the taxe d'habitation was paid by them only 2-3 weeks ago and so it may be better that I pay them directly (Nice old lady, nothing to do with being ripped off) because if I register to pay the tax d'habitation myself, I may well end up paying the bill again now, whereas if I don't it wont need paying again until next January. At which time, I can then register to pay instead of her, if I am still living there.

It does seem pointless paying the French govenment twice! My question is, IS this the case that I may have to pay from the date of occupation even though it has been paid by the Owner already if I register, and if I don't, how does this affect my registering as resident in France and paying French Tax? (if at all)

Over here, obviously, the tenant is liable for COuncil tax, not the landlord and the landlord usually tells them you are living there and you get a bill. But from what I gather, in France, an owner is responsible for both the Taxe Fonciere and the Tax d'habitation whether someone lives there or not. So I would have thought (using ENGLISH logic) that if it has been paid, no matter who paid it, its paid and it's as simple as that?

But anyway, the second question was, can I still register as a resident and tax payer over there, if I don't have the taxe d'habitation in my name?

EuroTrash

The tax that the nice old lady has just paid was the tax for 2012. Property taxes are payable annually in arrears, that is to say, you pay in Oct/Nov/Dec for the calendar year. I don't see why you would want to pay the 2012 tax.

The bill for 2013 will be sent out this autumn and technically you are not liable for the 2013 tax either because the rule is that the person who occupies the property on 1.1.13 pays the taxes.

The way you register is by filling in your first tax form, which you will not need to do until May 2014 when you will declare your income for the calendar year 2013. When you submit your tax form for 1.1.13 to 31.12.13, with your address on it, that is the point at which the taxe d'habitation gets put into your name. Your taxe d'hab payable for 2014 will then calculated on your income for 2013 and the bill is sent out in the autumn, as said above.

It all fits together and makes sense, if you stop and think about it. Taxe d'hab payable for 2013 is calculated on income for 2012. You were not here in 2012.

astitchingtime

Thanks Eurotrash, I think we met before on another thread!!

That does make sense. Thank you. I was worrying a little because I need to put my children in school and other things and was worried if I am not technically registered with the local Mairie or similar, I might have problems, but equally did not want to have to pay them twice!

Thank you for putting my mind at rest. excellent info.

dmu

Hi, you enrol your children at Maternelle/Primaire via the Mairie. Among other documents, they need proof of domicile in the Commune, e.g. rental agreement, utility bill... Not to mention children's IDs, Birth Certificates, Vaccination Certificates...
Welcome to French bureaucracy!

astitchingtime

Bureaucracy!! Tell me about it!!

I recently thought it might be easier to try and stay registered as self employed here for the original duration and if and when things became more permanent, register over there and de-register here. However, that throws up all sorts of problems. The UK are happy to take my tax but not my NI contributions (voluntary contribs being different). Which means I could not use the S1/A1 form for healthcare but to make use of the French healthcare system I need to pay tax there (which is all very fair). It all gets very messy and if I am going to go to all the trouble of uprooting my entire life and live like a Frenchie for a period of time, i damn well think I will do all I can to make it permanent.

Then I might have the wonderful task of experiencing the French legal system if my ex husband decides to try and stop maintenance payments because the CSA can no longer collect if I am over there and not here.

Oh and then there is the car scenario! Another thread perhaps? Keep my RHD, import it and run it until it runs no more or buy a cheap LHD over here and import it? Then comes the question of do I buy a LHD with French plates (I have seen a very nice one which is relatively cheap, same age as mine 10 years old) and find importing a French registered vehicle back into France is actually more complicated than an English one!!?

Phew! I truly hope this is all worth it!

EuroTrash

We did indeed meet on another thread, and I seem to recall sounding off about the pitfalls of being self-employed in France and it then transpired that you had a job lined up in France, so there is nothing to worry about.

If you buy a car on French plates in the UK, the fact that it is still on French plates means that it hasn't been officially imported into the UK, so you won't need to import it back, you just do a change of ownership as if it had never been away. Technically as a UK resident you shouldn't be driving a French reg car in the UK, so don't buy it too far in advance; and the other issue you might have is getting insurance for it, which obviously you need to drive it back to France. Also, it is crucially important to get the carte grise and also the certificat de cession, both of them endorsed/signed by the person who is named on the cg as the current owner. If you have those two documents you shouldn't have a problem, but if you don't have them both, you may find it impossible to register in your name when you get it back to France.

Hope this helps

astitchingtime

Yes I read something along those lines on another forum. Only it was more complicated because the name on the cg was not the original french owner but a polish guy who had bought the car from somewhere else (saying it was a friends car!) anyway, it was a lot more convoluted and a very dodgy scenario!

My ex-husband lived as a permanent resident here for around 8 years, still driving his old french plated Renault 5. He used to take it back to his parents place in France for the CT every couple of years and still had the insurance registered in France. He then bought a car over here when it fell apart, got pinched running a red light but as he still had his French license they could not apply the points and he got away with it!! Apart from being forced to change his license to a UK one, nothing more happened to him. I have lived in Italy and in the Netherlands and on both occasions was told you had to submit your UK license for a local one within 6 months!!

Some people get away with a lot but I think I would fret too much. Yes, how would I get a french plated car insured to be able to drive it back to france. I would need to look into that. Thanks!!

dmu

I may have missed an episode in the other thread, but I'm confused about the OP's future employment status and what work she will be doing.
If she isn't salaried, I suggested checking that this work category would be included in the A-E system and, if so, whether it was possible to be an A-E just for one employer. If these boxes can't be ticked, she must set up another type of business structure (= expensive).
@ OP - to get healthcare in the French system, you must pay into it in one way or another (e.g. côtisations). It's nothing to do with taxes....
As several topics are being covered under the Taxe d'Hab title, it may be better to start new threads for each subject; members don't necessarily read all the threads and would have useful advice to give on the subjects which crop up off-topic...

EuroTrash

I've just realised this is total and utter garbage because we are now in 2014 . Please add 1 to all the years mentioned!

cyrian

Glad you clarified that cos you had confused me

EuroTrash

LOL, I confused myself
Isn't that one of the questions they ask to see whether you have Alzheimers, "What year is it?" And another is "What's the British Prime Minister's name", I'm not sure I'd get that one right either

astitchingtime

Actually it made sense to me!! Perhaps I have alzheimers!!

One thought did occur to me though. If I submit my tax forms in May, there will only a couple of months of earnings on there, will the taxe d'habitation bill I get after that, include the usual discounts for my three dependants (because technically I am paying for 2013 yeah?!??!) or will that only come into play once I have worked a full tax year there?

EuroTrash

Sorry, that's me leading you astray... You won't submit your first tax return until May 2015. The tax year in France is the calendar year, so anything you earn between 1.1.14 and 31.12.14 is declared in May 2015. In May 2014 we'll be declaring what we earned during 2013.

So as you say, nothing comes into play until 2015. You will be there on 1.1.15 so you will be liable for TH (for the first time, because you weren't there on 1.1.14 so you're not liable this year). You will submit your first tax return in May 2015 on which you declare your revenues from whenever you arrive in France to 31.12.14. In September 2015 you will receive your first avis d'impot to tell you if you have any income tax to pay or not on your 2014 earnings, and in Oct/Nov you will receive your first TH bill, for the calendar year 2015, but based on your 2014 income.

There, have I got it right this time ? Very sorry about the confusion earlier, I honestly thought we'd just started 2013 when I wrote the previous post !

astitchingtime

Ahah!! I thought time passed more quickly as we got older, not slowly!!

Although it makes me a year younger if we are still in 2013 so I'll go with that!

Ok, now that makes sense as to why the little old lady could not understand when i told her about paying the Taxe d'habitation twice etc!! She is getting someone she knows from over there who deals with tax stuff to explain it to me. What are you like?! Tut tut.

That now makes the whole situation a lot more simple and gives me time to breathe before worrying about filling in tax forms over there as well as one for over here etc later this year.

I think we got there in the end though!

EuroTrash

Just make sure your landlady doesn't get you paying the TH for this year, or if you do end up paying something towards it, do it of your own free will and be aware that you aren't legally obliged to. It does seem a bit unfair on the owner or previous occupant that a new tenant can move in any time after 1st Jan and live in a place for up to 364 days and not have to pay anything towards the TH, but that's how it is.

I trust you have a standard French rental agreement drawn up, because the French law is so very specific on what must and what cannot be written into a rental contract, and if your contract breaches the rules, the law will simply override it. If she's an experienced landlady she will know this but if she's letting for the first time, she may not. It's surprising how many people imagine that a UK rental agreement will be valid in France, and it can cause all kinds of problems and misunderstanding - you've probably read some of them on the forum.