Jon-Bxl

Hi

I got this message (below) from the tax office (translated) via the web portal http://impots.gouv.fr/

Theres some info that might be interesting to some re dates and direct debit etc. Ive already registered my property, but just a reminder (only) its been covered here, everyone needs to do it by 30 June on the site above, who hasn't got around to it.

I'm curious about the change. 'Abolishing' a tax is good news for owners..... But as I am suspicious about governments (especially when they are short of money!). Will there be an alternative tax to come to replace the tax income of mostly every home in France? Thats a big pot of dosh to make up. (Maybe Macron will raise the pension age another year to pay it ( )

Or what concerns me, will they find a new way to penalise secondary home owners (as being proposed in areas like Cornwall... (Where entire villages virtually close down in low season - sadly losing all their heart and character).

Secondary home owners are also seen as wealthier and perhaps, a good target for money!

Also France has a history of retrospectively changing tax rules on 2nd homes, i.e Francois Hollande's big punitive tax changes to the Capital Gains and Social charges ramping some years back !!

Something tells me that things are going to get more expensive, soon, even for principle residences, even though DTH is 'abolished' (just a total guess here).....

AND certainly for secondary residences

Has anyone got any ideas of the new system? And hopefully put to bed my nagging fear that in this case we will need to 'get the wallet out' for yet more price increases !!! I hope I have it wrong or misunderstood!!

Jon

Hello,

I have signed up for direct debit of your property tax.

​Hello

For the taxe d'habitation, due to the change in the calendar following the abolition of the taxe [size=13px]habitation[/size] for the principal residence (payment deadline now 15/11 instead of 15/12), the 2022 notice no longer allows you to opt for direct debit.

You will have to renew the procedure from the 2023 notice available at the beginning of October, before 31/10/23.

Thank you for your attention.

dmu

Sorry, no idea for résidences secondaires.
Check the following official site
https://www.service-public.fr/partic.../vosdroits/F42
You can click on "Français" to get the English translation, but the original French is the official one.

Jon-Bxl

Thanks DMU

Its as I suspected the communes can decide to up the tax for 2nd homes.

However I still don't see how the government will make up the shortfall for all the 'abolished' taxes!

Jon

dmu

Neither do I, but they'll find a way!

Jon-Bxl

😊

Yes thats what Ive been suspecting as per the OP. Im always wary of 'being played' by big government especially these days of overwhelming mass and social media coverage... The opportunities of manipulation are too many

Something will 'pop up' as a result of this by the end of the year, I guess.... And I fear the target will be 2nd home owners. However there's absolutely no way that they can carry the load of the huge numbers of primary owners cumulative tax payments.

Lets see....

Thanks again for the info.

Jon

EuroTrash

Honestly I think you're off on the wrong tangent. It's not like ending taxe d'hab for primary residences is a new thing this year. It was introduced back in 2020. Since then, only a small and shrinking number of high earners have paid. So I'm not sure why you think communes are going to start needing to compensate now, if they haven't before; it was 2020 when their property tax revenue fell off a cliff.
I think it has to be looked at in the context of the economy and the tax system overall, though obviously that's not something that non residents generally concern themselves with. The changes to TdH was actually a central plank of a big drive to increase the average household's "pouvoir d'achat" which had been getting significantly eroded and civil discontent had got dangerously high - think gilets jaunes. Macron had to do something. So basically this was a very visible way of the government putting money back into consumers' pockets so that in turn they would put it back into economy, and at the same time they would feel they'd been listened to.
I remember there was a lot of robust discussion between local and national administrations over how the budgets would be rejigged, and I haven't a clue what the outcome was but it went quiet so I assume they found an acceptable solution.
My take on it is that this exercise is simply designed to make sure the tax offices hold the correct information on each property, and if you read the hundreds and hundreds of comments just from Brits saying 'oh dear it seems my pool was never declared' or 'the surface area shown for my house isn't right' or 'our outbuilding has been turned into a gite' etc etc etc, it seems that the exercise was long overdue. And I suspect that all this updated info on pools, extensions, gites and goodness knows what, is going to vastly increase taxe foncière revenue going forward, even without demanding backpayments. And while peeps obviously won't be happy to pay more taxe foncière, they can't reasonably complain if all they're paying is what's rightly due.

Listen Very Carefully

You see it always catches up with them in the end-I wonder how many thousands of euros these people with the "clever wheezes" are going to have to find now

Jon-Bxl

Hi ET thanks for the feedback but, sorry, I think youve missed the point.

My OP and resulting discussions were about the future once the TBH was/is abolished. You mention the past and explain how the decision was made. Interesting but, honestly, tangential
​​​​​
Obviously everyone knows that 'abolishing' a fundamental tax, paid by most every homeowner (for years) means 1: more buying power for the homeowner ... But 2: the government gets less tax revenues. In a time of high government debt, reducing income is dangerous. As dmu and I quipped they will get you somehow! Quote"They'll find a way!"

I admit to being extremely suspicious about big government control so Im questioning where the money will come from? In my experience 'they giveth... And they taketh away!'. France isn't flush with money - recouping this huge revenue can come from 4 sources (I think) Increased Debt; Increased taxes elsewhere; Printing money or longer term growth strategies to increase other revenues.

You ask why I think the communes would charge more.... Well I mentioned Cornwall in the OP as an analogy. Surely enough in post 2 dmu sent the official link that confirms this.

Obviously this abolished tax is good news for the homeowner, so the government can spin it as ' pouvoir d'achat' (if they don't take it back elsewhere.). So I am voicing a concern about the reality of recouping this (huge?) revenue loss...in the future

2nd homeowners have been targeted before, but they cant bear all of this load..... so it has to come from some-where. I'm curious about the 'where'

Finally, where we fully agree is that proper recording of 'assets' pools etc need to accounted for and will have an impact on Foncières, perhaps a big one.. but IMO it cannot fill the gap. My home has been correctly recorded on the records, for décades, in fact I was surprised about the number of 'pieces' when I completed the déclaration. When I questioned this with the authorities, they explained that its calculated differently to the way estate agents do it. Ostensibly this means my Foncières wont have any additional bump over the annual increases... Hmmm Lets see

Jon

PS I havent kept records, but my gut-feel is that since the '90's my TDH has never reduced.....

PPS as an aside, sadly, the inflation/cost-of-living crisis and e.g mortgage payment hikes, could have wiped out this initiative to put more money in homeowners pockets!

EuroTrash

Well we aviously see things from different sides and I will not try to change your mind, you're as entitled to your perceptions as I am to miine..
A couple of points though. Firstly, you have said a couple of times that phasing out TdH is good for the homeowner, I didn't take you up on it first time round but since you are repeating it consistently, I wonder if you have misunderstood the taxes. Taxe foncière is charged to the owner, taxe d'habitation is charged to the person who lives there. A large proportion of people in France do not own a property, they are tenants, and the phasing out of TdH is equally beneficial to them as tenants.
Secondly, as I tried to say, what follows the phasing out of TdH is to my mind historic rather than future since the process began in 2020. Unlike you I do keep tabs each year opn whether whether they went up or down or stayed the same. As I recall it reduced very slightly last year, can't find anything on google, but I found this report from 2021 when it also was lowered, in spite of the phasing out of TdH having started https://www.ouest-france.fr/normandi...4-39079062300e
Thirdly, if you'll pardon me saying so, I think you are looking at this rather simplistically. I do think it has to be seen in a broader context. It's part of a wider reform, it's not just a case of, this chunk of money has gone so we just need to get a similar amount from somewhere else to replace it. You say you're questioning where the money will come from so why not read the government's paper on just that question, which explains among other things how the old system where TdH went into the miunicipal coffers has been changed and will no doubt be changed again, and gives an insight into the various factors at play. I'm not the government's biggest fan but I am willing to believe that they're trying to find the fairest possible way to spread the burden, and I have some confidence that they have a better grip on public finances than certain other governments one could name.

https://www.vie-publique.fr/parole-d...es%20publiques.

Jon-Bxl

Hi ET. I think that this discussion has become boring to others. Lets agree to disagree.

Mea culpa: I used the word 'homeowner' you are right of course about who pays the TDH tax, but as an owner/occupier I actually didn't even think to write something else. I wasn't focussed on the specific word. The main point remains that its a big sum 'lost' to the government.

You are much more comfortable with government explanations than I am. But I mentioned that I am suspicious of governments and their spin...

We'll find out over time, if they nab us with some other stealth or non-stealth tax. I actually hope that you are correct.

You are one of the most helpful people on this sub-forum, often jumping in with lots of help to people with needs, I've mentioned that publicly here as well. Though we've had a couple of disagreements.

I'm sure if we met up, we'd have a hearty discussion about stuff.... But hopefully a laugh too!

Thanks for the information
Jon

EuroTrash

Yep you're right that the population will have to cough up the dosh one way or another, but since the govt has committed to bringing in reforms aimed at spreading the burden more fairly, and is being pretty transparent over what it's trying to do, I just think we should wait and see what they come up with before we condemn them out of hand. One thing they've already done of course is raised the pension age, which you may or may not think was the right thing to do, but it all feeds into the same issue of the Public Purse.
And with that, I'm out. sorry to have stuck my oar in.
I'm actually done with this forum as of a while ago but I check in every once in a while to see if anybody is still posting and I saw you had started a thread, and I recal that you and me have had some good craic in the past so got tempted to make an exception.
But don't worry Rosemary, I won't do it again - my unwelcome and opinionated self will stay gone now.

Robert McGhee

Sorry to see you go EuroTrash . . .
Thanks again for helping me out a couple of years ago, not to mention all the other people you have given sound and balanced advice to.
Best Wishes
Robert

Rosemary

Not a way that most members would see you because you always offer a lot of help. You provide a great deal of information that others may be unaware of because you take a genuine interest in what occurs. Take a break (a very short one) and come back refreshed and be your usual helpful self.

Rosemary

Helen1964

Unwelcome and opinionated? Utter balderdash. You must come back immediately!

dmu

Yourself might be unwelcome and opinionated to some, who prefer not to face facts, but please stay! You're one of the more knowledgeable members to advise the steadily decreasing (since Brexit) enquiries on the forum....