jjmb

So I am in France trying to sort out my very invalided parents and have accepted their decision not to move back to the UK, despite the fact my Dad doesn't speak any French and my Mother will be unable to talk for much longer due to her illness. Before I leave I am putting in an application of Tutelle
so when the time my mother has to go into a nursing home, there is someone who looks after her interests. In time I might have to do the same for my father but I will see what happens with this application first.

So with that done and the acceptance that I will not be visiting France again before their deaths, what sort of questions should I be asking about what happens when they die.

Current list:
do you have a joint bank account (re tweedpipe) in France?

Where do you want to be buried

What is the name of Mum's priest?

Where are your wills held? I know they have English wills but their notaire told them they don't need French ones.

Who is the executor?

I know when my parents die, at best only one of my sisters who live in England will come to France and even then it be will only to raid my parents house. My remaining sister lives in Australia so will also not come to France. So I will be making a journey from the US for this so Tweedpipe's timeframe is a little disconcerting but doable.

This seems a little morbid I know as my parents are not going to die this minute but it will happen in the next year or so as my Mother has incurable disease that she has already beaten the odds with. Normally, the life span is 10 yrs but she is now in year 10 and as determined as ever . So I want to be prepared. Talking this over with my parents has been difficult as you can imagine but has to be done. I have no intention of returning to France after this visit (I leave on Wednesday) as they have made it plain to my sisters and I that they don't require our help.

dmu

Hi, I'm afraid you aren't leaving us much time to think about this problem.
I've never come across any one involved with a "tutelle". It seems to be quite a procedure (going before the Tribunal) and it won't be settled by the time you leave. It's obviously nothing to do with us, but do you and your father know your mother's proposed "tuteur" personally and trust them implicitly?
I'm surprised you don't know who the Executor of your parents' Wills is. Hasn't their Notaire got a copy of their UK Wills? The fact of having a Notaire makes me think that they've got property in France and why didn't he/she advise them to make a French Will?
Maybe some one in the know will come along to advise, but the situation is very complicated and you may need professional advice rather than hints from well-wishers on the Forum such as myself.
Good luck!

EuroTrash

AFAIK there is no nominated 'exector' for French succession, it is all handled by the notaire. Bank accounts etc are frozen and put under the control of the notaire.

You and your brothers and sisters will inherit equal shares in the estate (your parents have no choice in this, they can't disinherit a child or leave more to one than to another, it's French succession law, hence why there's not a lot of point making a will), and you will each be responsible for paying any succession tax that's due on the portion you inherit, unless you refuse the inheritance. The tax has to be paid to the French government and it has to be settled fairly soon, I think it's within either 6 months or a year after the death.

I think you'll find that when the time comes the notaire will take over and make sure the legal side happens, so you just need to take care of the personal stuff like the funeral.

InVinoVeritas

Actually this is all in the process of change as under new EU rules an English citizen living in France can now make an English will which allows unequal dispositions to children. You MUST get the advice of a French notaire on how your parents should draw up a will otherwise they/you risk making some serious errors.

jjmb

thanks for the reply. The tutelle is being dealt with by myself and in consultation with the local Marie. It was her suggestion to what is a very complicated situation. I do not need to be there when the decision is made and it will be limited to my Mum's welfare, no financial decisions as I need my Mum to have representative who knows the French system re nursing homes when the time comes and can speak English to communicate things to my father. There are 2 levels of Tutelle, complete and demi.

I am aware of the French law of succession but unclear on the procedure so having the Notaire taking care of things is fine by me. I know there is a will in England but have not seen it. If Mum ends up in a nursing home and maybe my Dad, I doubt there will be much if anything left. In fact we (the children) might be in debt, the French system doesn't allow you 23,500 saving like the UK.

dmu

"Her" decision meaning the Assistante Sociale attached to your parents' Mairie? You're lucky to have one who speaks English... In any case the tuteur will be designated by the Juge des Tutelles who will have your parents' best welfare at heart.
@ ET - I meant Executor for the UK wills, thinking that was what OP meant by his question.
@ IVV - can you post an official link indicating this new EU rule?

jjmb

It was the Mairie (she mentioned she was up for election soon) who we talked to and I have a young English friend who was brought up in France and translated for me. By decision, I meant to say, she helped with getting the papers and advice about tutelle, as my parents are already getting help from their Mutelle.(sp), so this is the next step in the process. I am hoping the Judge will appoint someone but I know I have a strong case for it. Got the doctor's letter yesterday.

EuroTrash

http://ec.europa.eu/justice/civil/fa...s/index_en.htm
It's supposed to start in 2015 I believe. You can make the will now, but if you die before 2015 it would be disregarded.

Tweedpipe

I sympathise with the OP's situation - it's a difficult one.
It's something that families of senior parents currently living in France should make an effort to understand, namely tutelle, curatelle or sauvegarde de justice.
Like most of French Admin, imho it's far from straight forward; suffice to say there are several different types or 'forms' of both tutelle & curatelle depending on circumstances.
I have a fair amount of knowledge on this as Mme TP has excepted tutelle responsibilities for her mother who is in a special-care nursing home.
Accepting tutelle responsibilities is not something that should be taken lightly, as it can be stressful depending on the individual and circumstances. It's important to understand the difference between tutelle duties, and especially curatelle simple and curatelle renforcée. One must be absolutely certain that the curatelle is performed by someone who comes highly recommended. Be well aware that fortunes have been made by unscrupulous associations, as witnessed by this weeks 'Envoyé Special' program who screened an excellent documentary on the subject. (If available I will try and provide a link to this in due course).

Without dwelling more on this in-depth subject, I suggest some time is taken to read the following:
http://www.tutelle-curatelle.com/index.htm
(Copy & pasting into Google translate may be necessary for some, but this action does distort some of the original data, so be aware).

Time permitting I will follow-up with additional advise.

Tweedpipe

Generally speaking, yes. But one is highly advised to designate a family member as 'tuteur' if possible, otherwise there is an annual charge if curatelle is administered. Admittedly the Juge des Tutelles may attempt to overide a family member as tuteur, as the individual has to prove they are capable and not highly motivated by personal gain - yet another sac de vers (bag of worms).....

InVinoVeritas

Yes it was due to come into force by now but seems to have slipped back somewhat. I suppose it gives a chance to plan ahead.

dmu

I agree entirely, but from what I understood, all the children were far away and unlikely to be able to make any decision when the time comes, and a third party (recommended at the Mairie) seemed to be involved. The OP hasn't said who the proposed tuteur is, but as I said, the family must have complete confidence in this person.

dmu

Thanks for that!
But read what follows "The following issues continue to be governed by national laws".
French Law will continue to govern Succession issues...
As suggested, the OP should consult his parents' Notaire to sort this question out.

EuroTrash

Whoever inherits will still pay French taxes, ie 60% for non relative etc, it does not get you out of paying the succession taxes as per French law.
But in theory you will be able to leave things to who you like. (As long as they can afford the tax....)

Tweedpipe

Here is a useful link to the documentary I referred to earlier. (I downloaded this for future reference and to allow our children eventually to be aware).

Watching the documentary, note that some people who are really in need of care for managing their finances etc, often refuse assistance (04:30 – 06:55).
As I understand it, legally the tutelle judge cannot enforce assistance (mise sur curatelle renforceé) on those that don’t wish it; they sometimes do however, much to the distress of those persons capable of, or wishing to manage their own day-to day financial affairs. (07:00 – 12:50).
There are rogue tuteurs out there who occasionally do get uncovered by controls (16:08 – 24:02), and although the government are aware of potential problems and have reinforced measures to combat them, tutelle judges clearly do not have the time or the manpower to check each clients accounts in detail, or at regular intervals.
One should therefore be aware and very careful about who is administering the care and finances. It would appear from the documentary that all do not have the best intentions. It's a business after all.
And going slightly off-topic, the above cautionary advice applies to retirement homes too. There are many dodgy ones out there, even if looking respectable from the exterior. Do not be taken in by expensive, glossy brochures alone, or just by recommendations. Visit the establishments, speak to staff and many of the inmates to get a realistic overview. Choose very, very carefully for your loved ones.