Neighbor Problem
 

Hi,
We bought our house 4 years ago which had a servitude for the neighbouring property... Two years ago we bought the neighbouring property...Since then our neighbour has been insisting that he has servitude on our property... We have been to the cadastre and they have informed us that unless it is in our deeds, there is no servitude on our property... The Notaire through whom we bought both properties also informed us that no one has servitude on our property... The neighbour would not accept it and said they are lying... We went to second Notaire who examined our sales contracts and wrote a letter to the neighbour that there is no servitude on our property...The neighbour has stopped pressuring us about that issue...
At an adjoining part of our land there was a path which consisted of 5 metres each of land donated by owners long ago to form a chemin.... 3 years ago the neighbour decided to fence off his 5 metres and agreed to use the access he has had from long ago to go to his forest... We both agreed verbally that he will not use our half as he has taken his half... Now after 3 years on non use he has decided he wants to make an opening in his fence further down and use our half because his half gets wet in the winter...We went to the Notaire who sent him a letter to say that he has fenced off his half and has access to his forest and is forbidden to come on to our property...
The neighbor is now irate and when we tried to fence off our half, thus preventing him from coming on to our property, he and his wife came over and ripped our fencing down...They will not allow us to put our fence up and insist that they will drive onto our property...We explained that he must honour our agreement of 3 year ago but he refuses and says that the 'servitude'will always remain a servitude...
He is now threatening that he will use the well on our property because he has servitude to it...
He has also threatened to close our only access to our home which is under enclavement... The Notaire wrote to inform him that he cannot do that....


Because he is an unreasonable person who uses violent, threatening and intimidating behaviour, we need to fence off our property to keep him from come over and abusing us...Yesterday he picked up a fence post and tried to stab my husband with the pointed end...at the same time trying to head butt him...He is a newly retired Gendarme..

Do we have the right to put up our fence keeping him from using our half of the chemin?

What are our rights regarding his use of the well? He has mains water to his property...

We have been to see the Marie who watched the video we took of him and his wife destroying our fence, but the Mayor informed us that they can't do anything as its a private matter, with which he cannot get involved...

Any advice will be greatly appreciated...Many thanks..Cheryl

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Hi, and welcome to the Forum. Sorry that your first post is about the unpleasant subject of neighbours from Hell...
The Maire is correct, this is a private matter and you should consult an Avocat now, since the Notaire seems to have done everything he could within his jurisdiction. Make sure you choose an Avocat unlikely to be connected in any way with the neighbours...
Good luck!:fingerscrossed:

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Cheryl, I can't give you any constructive advice as I've no experience of this but dmu's response seems entirely correct. I would also keep a diary of this, recording any intimidation or harassment. You could also put up notices on your fence marking it as private property so he cannot claim to 'not know'. Good luck,

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Signage does define it visually, I suggest you contact you communes "Conciliateur Judiciaire" they are there to mediate neighbourly disputes and it should be the first point of call. Dont step on to his property whilst in dispute/verbal confrontation as he will be very aware of the force he can use to remove you.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

also remember in France that you need written evidence..
so, every time neighbour does something, write them a letter telling them what they did, when they did it and who saw it. Send it registered post with an avis de reception to your neighbour. Make a copy ... If they don't respond within 2 weeks then this is taken as agreement to what you have written and can be used against them. I'm not a lawyer at all, but this is what we were told a few years ago.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Hello Everyone...
Thank you for the warm welcome... This is the first time I have been on a forum... sorry to start with a negative comment...
Thank you all so much for taking the time to advise...It's much appreciated...

We have put signage up but the guy ripped them down and broke them into pieces...I have photos...

We have to stand up to the Bully... I would rather plough our half of the chemin than allow him access...There is nothing in our deeds... he says there is servitude in his favour in his deed but he wont take it for verification to the notaire...or show us...

Every violent, threatening and intimidating episode only serves to make me stronger and more determined not to give in...

Thought about, as a last resort, to pitch a tent there, camp out and call the Newspaper with the story... Maybe the embarrassment will make him stop...
Thank you all once again...Have a lovely weekend...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Make sure your not in it at night, this guy sounds crazy enough to burn the tent down or wreck it with his car with you inside. IMO he only understands one thing-muscle, see if you can get some heavyweight friends on it and this is not a joke.
Good luck,

Just noticed this from your OP 'He is a newly retired Gendarme..'
Could you not take all your evidence inc photos to his former captain including the fence post bit and perhaps embarrass him? His former boss may have a word to stop any scandal reaching his post.
Just a thought but it does sound as though he has lost his marbles.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Thanks Audio...He was a Gendarme in the Pyrenees..a 4 hour drive away... not where we are... a friend recommended the heavies, but we declined, as we wouldn't be able to live with it if they got too heavy...Prefer to do what we can legally and let Karma do the rest...Yes, looks like he is used to throwing his weight around...am a great believer in What goes round, comes round....Thanks for your moral support...really means a lot...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Your welcome. The altitude must have affected his brain or lack of.
It might be an idea to have a voice recorder in your pocket at any time you may encounter this idiot. I used a Walkman once for this sort of thing and it recorded the mainly blue conversation very well.
Anymore threats call the Gendarmes (yes I know) at least it will be on record if you make a formal complaint.
Keep us informed.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

In my, admittedly limited experience, bullies are the biggest babies when they are exposed to retaliatory action. We all know the French legal system is remarkably inapt at dealing with these kind of everyday ennuis so I'm with audio in showing a bit of muscle.

If you don't want to go down that road I would go with audio's second suggestion and call the gendarmes each and every time a threat is made or an illegal action taken. I suspect they might be tougher with one of their own for wasting their time than they would with you. Again any evidence such as photos or recordings would be great - they might not admissible in court but they should convince the gendarmes of your version of events.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

You may get the Gendarmes to visit once or twice and note it in their book of grand events but unless the pillock actually punches someone which you would like to believe he understands the law here it is not in the Gendarmerie's remit to attend these sort of events. Our neighbour phones then every time someone starts a lawnmower or the kids make some noise and they don't attend.

You have to start with the Marie and the Conciliateur Judiciaire then you move up to the "Les Huissiers de justice" and your Avocat. You need to appear that you would prefer to sort it amicably as that pays dividends in the eyes of the law.

Any deeds that the person holds will be in a Notaires filling cabinet and probably public record. It is time to take him to court simples.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

I think the Marie has been approached by the OP.
I don’t think he needs to actually punch someone before the cops take action however he is using threating behavior. I must admit I do not know French law that well but in the US and UK that would be a criminal offence. UK max 6 months I think, US possibly much longer.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

That aside going back to the Marie and asking for the local "Conciliateur Judiciaire" contact details and getting the ball rolling is the way forwards.

This is not the UK or the US you have to deal with it the French way and the French police "Gendarmerie" don't act and respond to things like the British or American police which imho is a good thing in neighbourly disputes unless there are acts of physical aggression they will not generally get involved. As I understand it threatening behaviour is not a crime here as it is in the UK or at least the definition in charging someone with it is different.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

cheryl1010.

Hi and welcome to BE from me.

I can't help you at all as I live at the bottom of the world. New Zealand.

However, you have all my sympathy and more. We have been dealing with the neighbours from hell for the past 5 years. You'll get there in the end.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Sorry but that's not correct. There are laws in France against this kind of behaviour and the gendarmes are obliged to attend in such circumstances:-

- Appels téléphoniques malveillants ou agressions sonores : 1 an de prison et 15.000 Euros d'amende

- Menace de commettre un crime ou un délit contre les personnes avec ordre de remplir une condition si la victime n'exécute pas l'ordre donné : 3 ans d'emprisonnement et 45.000 Euros d'amende

- Menace de mort avec ordre de remplir une condition : 5 ans de prison et 76.000 Euros d'amende

- Menace ou acte d'intimidation en vue d'obtenir de la victime d'un crime ou d'un délit qu'elle ne porte pas plainte ou qu'elle se rétracte : 3 ans de prison et 45.000 Euros d'amende

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

It's a matter for the 'police municipale' not the gendarmes. Gendarmes are soldiers - you don't go to the army to complain about your neighbour unless a serious crime has been committed. Your local bobby is the one whose job it it to deal with the complaints that come to the mairie about barking dogs, people dumping their rubbish in other people's bins etc. I don't know why your mayor (is he or she really called Marie?) said they couldn't act - keeping the peace in his/her commune and settling disputes between neighbours is one of the things (sh)he is elected to do.
Be careful of taking photos or videos though because taking a picture of an identifiable person without their consent is classed as invasion of privacy regardless of the circumstances. No good handing ammunition to your neighbour who clearly knows French law.
Do you have other neighbours? Do they know what's going on? How do they feel about your neighbour?
If you have the sympathy of your other neighbours and they'd say all the right things to reporters, actually think the newspaper idea is the best idea. Local newspapers love this sort of thing, and it will shame the mayor into taking action. No mayor wants his commune splattered all over the newspaper as a place where innocent people are threatened and bullied and the mayor stands by and lets it happen.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

I would call being threatened using an offensive weapon (pointed end of a fence post) a serious offence and would carry a custodial sentence as InVinoVeritas pointed out.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

The gendarmes would call it an alleged serious offence. How can it be proved because where's the evidence. You can't be convicted just because somebody says you did something. It's one person's word against another, and one of the people is an ex-gendarme so which person are the gendarmes more likely to believe?
Sorry but I think the gendarmes will close ranks and look after their own, especially if the other person is not even French. Think armed forces mentality. And it sounds to me as if the neighbour is confident of this too

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

From googling, it appears that gendarmes and their families have to live in barracks. Maybe he just doesn't know how to behave with civilian neighbours. I'm not saying this is any excuse but it might help to understand how is brain is working (if indeed it is) and be something useful to bear in mind when dealing with him.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Good Morning Everyone...
We have video and recorded evidence of his and his wife's threatening behaviour....him making head butting and stabbing motions with the pointed end of our fence pole ' the fence, which they broke.....It's not a matter of their word against ours...The local Marie and the Police have viewed it... The policeman said he would pass by and see them..I don't know if he did.... Since that day, without aggression, they have had their son have a chat with us about there being a servitude on our property... They keep mentioning Servitude... Our deeds, and I have a feeling their deeds too, don't say that they have servitude on our land... The 2 Notaires and the Cadastre cant be wrong or lying... I get the feeling the're back to manipulating tactics now... since the aggression hasn't worked.
The sad thing is that we were friends when we bought the house... and I extended generous hospitality towards them... would have them over for dinner twice a month, every time they came from the Pyrenees ... Their grown sons are well educated, respectful and so polite...We really like the kids...

I really hope, without giving in to their unfair intimidation, we can some day be friends again and live in peace as good neighbours...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Thank you once again for all your advice...
Just wondered if anyone knows about the laws surrounding neighbours access to a well situated on our property... Can't seem to find anything in the French Code Civil...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Actually it depends where you live. I assume the OP is in the country which means it will be the gendarmes who would deal with this. In a sizable town it would more likely be the police.

In any case it's not something the OP needs to worry about as a call to 17 (or 112 from a mobile) will dispatch the competent service.

I have found the gendarmes to be extremely competent and I really don't think they would be anything other than professional in handling this. Of course the neighbour will be very aware of what they can and can't do in this situation.

I wouldn't worry at all about filming or recording events - that would be a civil matter and it would also hinge on what the intention was. If it's never published then no law has been broken:-

« Lorsqu'elle est réalisée sans l'accord de l'intéressé, la diffusion, par quelque moyen que ce soit et quel qu'en soit le support, de l'image d'une personne identifiée ou identifiable mise en cause à l'occasion d'une procédure pénale mais n'ayant pas fait l'objet d'un jugement de condamnation et faisant apparaître, soit que cette personne porte des menottes ou entraves, soit qu'elle est placée en détention provisoire »

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Glad to hear that the white flags are out.
If your deeds don't say that there's a servitude, and he doesn't have a document that says it, then there is no servitude. It wouldn't be in his deeds, his deeds are about his property not yours, but there should be a separate document that would have been drawn up by the notaire when the servitude was first agreed.
He's not necessarily correct in saying that once there is a servitude there is always a servitude, I seem to recall that they can expire through disuse, but over a very long period of time.
It's not up to you to prove there isn't one - it's your property, so it's up to them to prove their rights on your land. I think you need to be polite but firm and make it clear that if they can prove that it exists, of course you will be very happy to honour it, but it's not reasonable for anybody to stake an important claim like this with no legal documents to support it. If he's lost the document and can't get a copy, then tough.
The issue is that if you agree to it now, then when you come to sell you'll have to disclose that you've agreed a servitude and it would have to be written in, because servitudes go with the land not with the owner so the new owner would have to respect it, and it could impact on the value of the property.
However I don't think you can refuse him a 'droit de passage' to his own well if his only reasonabe access to it is across your property, even if it isn't mentioned in your deeds.
Maybe you should get your verbal agreement of three years ago made official.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Hi EuroTrash...
Thanks for your advice... The well is ours.. we paid 4000 euros for it...
He refuses to get any verbal agreement made official...He made our last neighbour pay for installing Boundary Markers and then refused to sign...
We have 24 CCTV all round our property, since my brother in law runs a CCTV business and we got he cameras for free... There are signs to let everyone know that they are recording...
We have recordings of the neighbours' threatening behaviour and of them breaking our fence...which the Mayor and the police have seen...
We'll see what happens... Prefer to solve this amicably...without being intimidated into submission...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Well you learn something every day still don't think they will do much other than to pop round and say enough already... They are prone to avoiding paperwork unless the situation really calls for it but they are professional I know two personally any they are really nice people.

Best approach the only downside I see is that you need it defined by law for him to understand otherwise it could just raise it's ugly head again in a year or three when he gets bored or decides he wants at the well again. You will probably end up having to pay to get your boundary with him defined and marked and a judge say to hime he has no right of passage.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

If it's not even his well, he deffo sounds like a headcase. Or just a blustering bully that's desperate to win a small battle even if he loses the war, just so as not to lose face.
I guess all you can do is keep repeating calmly that you've looked into it, the notaire says there is no servitude, and unless he produces some real evidence to alter the known facts then there's no point in discussing it any further.
And as you say, see what happens.
Bon courage.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Thanks EuroTrash...Just what I need at the moment... COURAGE...... Many Many Thanks for all the Kind support..

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Can you put any kind of top on the well with a lock? And a notice on it that states it is your property and any interference with this lock, or attempt to use it will contravene regulation XXX with a fine of (sorry don't know the detail). I'm thinking that the more notices you have stating your property the less he can argue no knowledge, and interfering with it will be an act of vandalism or trespass (if there is such a law in France). Good luck.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Hi, if you hesitate to consult an Avocat, find out where your nearest Conciliateur de Justice is and make an appointment, as suggested in an earlier post.
Conciliateur de justice - Service-public.fr
Your Mairie will be able to tell you, or simply Google "Conciliateur de Justice" and the name of your town.
The only potential problem is that both parties must be present at the consultation, i.e. your neighbour must be there, too, with official proof of his claims, i.e. his Property Deeds mentioning the servitude....
If he refuses (which to me would mean that he hasn't got such proof), then I repeat my advice to consult an Avocat.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Oh dear :( Firstly, BON COURAGE!!

Secondly, well done for checking the Code Civil, where you will have seen that "nul ne peut être enclavé chez lui".

Thirdly, check with your notaire to see if s/he missed any servitude documentation...

Then, depending on how nasty/threatening/abusive the neighbour is being, send him a lettre recommandée avec accusé de réception, "sans préjudice" detailing the situation and your position. Copy the letter (toujours recommandée avec accusé de réception) to the Mairie & local police.

If the white flags are out, you may be dealing with a xenophobic bully.

Again, good luck!

S

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

It seems an independent notaire has already examined the contracts and written to the neighbour so I would think a letter is unlikely to do the trick at this stage. Also getting the neighbour to go to through conciliation seems to be out of the question. Is there another neighbour on better terms with this man who might be able to help?

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

I hate bullies....
If I were you I'd go and consult an avocat straight away. Somehow that magical type of letter tells people that you're serious and that you're prepared to act.
$200 well spent I would have thought.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Yes we are seeing an Avocat in a a couple of weeks...we have an appointment.....I will ask my other neighbour, but they work all week and are so tired on the weekends, which is why I dont want to trouble them...We live in the country.....

We also have a geometre coming to re-install boundary markers which the neighbour has moved...Guess we have to pay again...They keep moving Boundary Markers--Bonnes...just to cause Harassment...

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Keep the bill.

You need help with translation? Do you belong to any anglo groups in your area? Usually a request for help with translating at an appointment like this gets a few resoponses. Or you can google avocats anglophone your region and go to see someone who speaks english. If you're anywhere nr Toulouse I know of a few good english speaking avocats.

Bon courage
xx

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

What you say here is very interesting. A "bornage" which is what boundary markers are called, must be done in the presence of all interested parties and the cost should be shared. If the "bornes" are subsequently moved it is an offence punishable in law. You should speak to your avocat before you do this again.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

InVino's right, the bornes must never be moved and everyone has to be there. If your neighbour refuses to attend, or kicks up a fuss, then I'm not sure what you do but there's probably a procedure that has to be followed (maybe the geometre will know, or the mayor) to ensure you've given him due notice and opportunity to attend.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

If the bornage has been done before, the géomètre should have a very accurate record of where the bornes should be situated.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

He will probably have his notes but somewhere on the land he will have set up his "point de répére". Let's hope the neighbour hasn't destroyed it!

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Only if it results in a solution.

As this person was a gendarme he would have been involved in many neighbour disputes. He probably knows the rules and unlikely to be bothered about a lawyer's letter.

It could be the beginning of a mass draining of your savings. Professional costs have caused many a bankruptcy. Just be careful.

Re: Neighbor Problem
 

Really?

I've always found that an hour of professional advice usually followed up with a letter works a treat. You know where you stand and what the next action needs to be. You can make sure that whatever you do is legal as well.