To move... or not to move?
 

We are thinking about relocating to the Toulouse/midi pyrenees area. Having a massive dilemma about whether to go for it, or not, and I would love to hear the perspectives of folk who are already living in france and have managed to make it work.
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The idea is to buy something habitable, but where we could add value, by perhaps doing up outbuildings as gites, or create a campsite or both. In the short term my husband would continue to commute to his job (magazine publisher) in Bristol Mon-Thurs (hence Toulouse area, for good airport links). I have a homebased job that I may or may not be able to take with me (charity fundraiser/manager), but my income isn’t crucial to the endeavour either way. Longer term we would hope to either create a gite income, or find work in France, or freelance for UK employers, or write, or a mix of all those. We would also have a bit of income from renting out our UK house.

I have spoken to a French mortgage broker and established that we could fund a purchase price in France of around £200,000, based on our savings and the UK jobs. Or another option might be to buy a wreck just with savings.

We have 3 kids, girls, who would be 8, 8 and 7 by the time we moved. Two are doing well at school and I think would manage a transition like this, obviously with some difficulty, but I can imagine them learning French and making friends and feeling at home in time. But one of the twins struggles quite a lot with her school work, and I am quite concerned about what the impact on her would be. International school would be one option, but I think that would mean basing ourselves in a city, which wasn’t really the plan... I’m anxious that the combination of changing school, and having to learn in French would put her so far behind her English peers that she never makes up the ground. And in France she may end up having to repeat a year, which would hit her hard, especially being a twin and seeing her sister move on. But perhaps she would have an advantage at this stage because French kids start school later? I don't know how the expectations of 8yr olds compare between the 2 countries' systems.

So I am really torn. In the pros, I am thinking France would be warmer, we could afford a better lifestyle (the houses that I am looking at in our price range are amazing compared to what we have in UK for twice the cost); skiing all through winter; cycling and hiking all summer. I have the impression that life is a little ‘free-er’ in France than England, more outdoorsy; less work obsessed, that kind of thing. (I may be wrong!) The children would grow up bilingual, which is surely a good thing.

On the downside though, we would be apart a lot, if OH commutes back to UK on a weekly basis. We might never find a source of income that adequately replaces his salary. (How much do you think you can make from a 2 or 3 bedroom gite in a year?) If we bought a house with dilapidated outbuidlings, and created gites, would the added value equate to the cost of doing the work, or would we just be pouring money away? I read on this forum that red tape, and tax and general bureaucracy make it fairly impossible to earn an independent income in France. Also we could end up paying tax in 2 countries and having nothing left (though I presume a tax advisor could help us get around that?). And I’m a little worried it would be lonely. I speak reasonable French (did it up to degree level and have worked in France, but 20 years ago so now rusty) - I’m willing to work at it and make an effort, but not sure I would ever really penetrate French social circles, especially if we lived somewhere rural. Am I being overly negative?? I hope so!

I would love to hear the perspectives of people on here. You have all done it, and presumably if you are still on the forum, you are still in France and not regretting the move??!

thoughts welcome! thank you very much for any insights or suggestions

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Welcome to the forum, please don't move to France thinking you can add value to a property the housing market here does not really work like the UK and yes there are lots of bargains but no matter how much work you do to them there value will remain relatively unchanged. Renovation here is not cheap.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Property markets in other countries are different. The strange development of the real estate market in Britain since the 1980s is not mirrored in France or elsewhere in Europe.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Your three children are well within the "limit" for moving to France and attending French school. They start learning to read and write at 6 here, so your 7-year-old will be OK. The struggling twin could also start in CE1 with her younger sister, to get her used to the beginnings of French Grammar and Maths à la française, and if all goes well, skip a year later on, to be at the same level as her twin when it's time to go to Collège.
Don't leave it too late to make your minds up, it becomes very difficult, if not impossible, for 10/11-year olds to cope with being thrown in at the deep end in Collège without French Grammar/Culture behind them.
Others will come along concerning your Taxes, healthcare coverage if your OH is salaried in the UK, feasibility of creating a gîte, etc....
Good luck with your decision!:)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

If your OH works in the UK and the family lives in France, that normally works out the optimum solution as regards tax and social security - you don't pay tax twice because of the dual taxation agreement, and the UK remains your competent state for healthcare etc which saves you the significant expense of contributing to the French system.

It worries me a little that your list of pros doesn't include loving France. You need to, really, because it can be exasperating at times and if you don't love it you can wind up hating it. Also as a rule I think that anyone who thinks they will be able to 'afford a better lifestyle' is setting themself up for a disappointment - yes houses are cheaper but other things are more expensive and overall it balances out. If you look at Brits who've moved to France, they're not exactly rolling in disposable income, a lot of them are more stretched financially than they were in the UK, though they may live in bigger houses. But in your case, for as long as OH communtes back to the UK you will escape the biggest financial drawback of France which is the social security contributions. If that changes, it could affect your finances by more than just the loss of his salary because you'll lose your entitlement to NHS cover.

Only you can decide because only you know your priorities - is it material wealth, is it togetherness; are you risk-averse, do you cope well with stress and setbacks... is your couple absolutely rock-solid because it will need to be to survive... All personal stuff. You have to dig deep and be very honest to find the answers. It can be done but it's likely to be a struggle and there will be sacrifices to be made, how much do you want it, will it be worth the sacrifices?

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

:goodpost:
I would add that the OP should be prepared to be free on Wednesday and Saturday afternoons in order to taxi her girls to their various Wednesday activities/birthday parties/medical appointments, etc.... The days are shorter in Primaire now and, if they don't enrol for the optional "post-scolaire" activities laid on, they go home at 16h00 (in our village, at least). If you don't pick them up yourself, the schoolbus driver won't "deliver" the child if a parent isn't at the stop to collect.... This somewhat limits a mother's free time in the afternoon! (and it gets worse when they're in Collège/Lycée as their social lives develop!)
@chukins - Depending on how "free" you are now, this might be an important factor....

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

for education that may ease the process of the transition you could try googling English 31 - an English unit in both a primary and secondary school in Tlse - (Colomiers to be exact) or just go for the wednesday option and try jack in the box toulouse.

Both have charges associated but nothing like those of the international school.

re making money on a house - it is very unlikely here è though toulouse does have a booming market due to airbus - however french people are generally far more attracted to building their own houses and leave the doer uppers to the mad English and Germans :)

My daughter attended English 31 so once you have posted 3x I am happy to advise

another good site is Toulouse English Speaking Forum on facebook

Michele :thumbup:

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Thanks loads everyone who has replied... really helpful. It sounds like the schooling thing could be made to work, but that I would be foolish to think we would be making any money from property refurbs or gites or whatever. Which leaves us with a long term commuting to UK option. Much to think about! Thanks for taking the time to reply, I really appreciate it.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

You write this quite a bit. I do see what you are saying but more often than not it is the case that when someone wishes to emigrate it is the pull to try something different, rather than the love of a place already known & no, I haven't discounted the language difference. That can be part of it too.

Heck. People emigrate to Canda/Oz & NZ without ever having visited the place & still make a good new life.

Yes. Any large move to anywhere new comes with risk and a certain amount of hard work to adapt and overcome.

Still. Don't let that put you off Chunkins.

If you have this in you to try , then try.

FWIW , my own eyes were set to France before we took a wrong turn and ended up in New Zealand.

We still wouldn't rule out a France base sometime down the line and it might well be that my OH will commute between UK and France workwise during those years .

Anything is possible if you work on the practicalities and see if it is a good fit or become a good fit for your family. Nothing ventured, nothing gained & all that.

Just as with a thought to moving anywhere, your personal research + lists of pros /cons and cost of living figures will help enormously.

Do come back with your thoughts. We all love to share.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

If you do that you're welcome to pop in for a cup of tea in a BE mug at our place. ;)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

All the more reason to relocate. :-)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

I see what you're saying too.
I suppose the reason why it's turned into a bit of a hobbyhorse with me is that I get so sick of hearing expats around here complaining about all things French and making it clear to anyone who wil listen that they live here in spite of it being France, rather than because of it being France. Saying that I have to admit that I don't know any of them very well so maybe it's all bluff and bluster and they're really very happy bunnies and love it here. But that's not the impression they give, they sound bl00dy miserable and it makes me cringe every time I get cornered in Carrefour.
I wonder if the problem about France is that people sometimes have such romantic notions of it that aren't the reality. A lot of people who move here aren't the type who would ever willingly take a leap into the unknown or move half way round the world. They came here because they thought they knew what to expect, after all France is just across the Channel from the UK so it can't be very different can it, and they've seen what it's like on A place in the sun and all the rest. Then they find they don't like it and they blame France for not being what they thought. I don't think places like Canada, Oz et al have quite such a distorted image in the UK, so don't lull people into the same false sense of security.
So yes I totally agree that for some people it's the pull to try something different and if that's the case then cool, but I don't actually think that that's the reason why people mostly move to France. I think different countries appeal to different types of people and I think the type of person who wants a totally new experience would usually want do more than hop across the Channel - yes I know you fancied France so obviously that's not always the case, perhaps I'm totally off beam altogether. But I do think there's a particular danger with France that Brits don't expect or want it to be foreign, and when they discover it is, they don't like it.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Honestly I have moved loads of times both in the uk and in France and, if you are still of working age then no matter where you are, you still have to get up and go to work Monday to Friday ...

for me France hasnt changed a lot in my day to day - BUT it is warmer in general (or at least the skies are bluer more often), my children and I are bilingual and finally airbus France is a better employer for hubby than airbus uk :)

Choose to move for the right reasons - there are also lots of reasons to dislike France and if the positives dont outweigh the negatives then you will end up miserable :thumbup:

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

With Oz and Nz the main hurdle is distance imho yes they do stuff differently but being able to walk into a bar have a normal conversation makes life easy in my book odd's are they will laugh at your jokes rather than you "Le rosbif".....

When you live here like Et says you can't help but hear folk complain with a somewhat bitterness about how they are not enjoying life here for whatever reason.

Coming with pots of preverbal gold to invest in property do not get you the same results and rewards as the UK which is what most people ideas of investment tend to be based on. The Gite's market is pretty saturated these days so it's work and investment for less return.

This is a land of high overheads and the only horse that comes in first every year is the one ridden by the tax man.

Dont get me wrong plenty of folk move here and love it and do well but getting to the point where they can say they are doing well tends to take a lot longer and there are not as many of them.

Whiners tend to be those who don't crack the language which takes a lot more effort when attempting it as an adult.

Keeping yourself sane here is a full time job without all the other stuff you have to worry about...

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

I must agree with ET's warning and that you really need to know what you are coming to in France.I cringe when posters say that they are relocating their busines to France assuming that everything will just roll along as in the UK.Also when they eventually say that they have someone with special needs and they expect UK standards of care and support.Many also say that they will start to learn French. It is bloody hard to speak French at an adequate level and that gets even more complicated when you start to deal with French bureaucracy.Canada; Oz and NZ are anglophone countries with laws based on UK laws and are culturally similar. France is none of these.Many people move successfully to France and some never learn to speak French but many of them are retired with their "place in the sun".The members on here love France and want other Brits to enjoy it as they do but also want to caution them about the problems they will certainly face.Otherwise we wouldn't need BE - we would just get on with life in our own little bubbles.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Cyrian is right, the fact that French are crap at languages and Brits too make admin stuff and paperwork very difficult to deal with.

The Queen still reigns in Canada, NZ and Oz and these countries have strong links with the UK.

Even though it's closer, a lot of things are very difficult when you don't speak the language, especially when you have to rent or buy a property, help your kids with their homework or deal with the tax office.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

:goodpost:

I would add that even for people who speak perfect French, it's difficult to deal with the bureaucracy! My father-in-law passed away in September and the amount of paperwork we have is just ridiculous.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

The OP shouldn't feel targetted by the last few posts, as she'd quickly recover her French once here and has a guaranteed income via her OH.
If she can overcome her worries about her struggling twin, the unlikely chance of finding work for herself, the fact of the family being separated for most of the week, then why not?
One solution to her dilemma would be to remain in the UK, buy a holiday home in France and wait until their children have finished schooling, before moving here for good. Plenty of time between now and then for every one to learn French. And the two parents might in fact discover that being permanently resident in France wasn't for them, after all, esp. if all the children decide to go to Uni in the UK....:blink:

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Agreed. My comments were a general response to Bevs post. I am asked by French friends where is better - France or the UK? My response is that neither is better and each has its good points.I love life in France and I am in a position to enjoy it. We have friends and we socialise a lot in France. However, I love the UK and I think that it is a marvellous country and in many ways it leaves other countries behind. I think that if you love France in the first place then it makes the transition easier. I think that echoes ET's comments.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

I realised that, and also agree with your post (and the others')!
The whole subject could be made into a separate Read-Me thread, to avoid diversion from the OP's original post....

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

IMO it's always easier to find reasons not to do something.
Things can be challenging here but so can anywhere.

Come to France, give it a go and have no regrets.

ps the weather is fantastic ;)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Look before you leap.
You pays your money and takes your choice.
Lovin' it :lol:

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

OK if, as mentioned in this and many other threads, there's at least one job lined up and children aren't adolescents without a word of French.
Also, the weather's been grotty in the Hérault for some time, so what might be fantastic in the Alpes isn't necessarily pleasant elsewhere. In any case, the supposedly better weather in France shouldn't be a major factor in the decision to move here.
P.S. just noticed your Wink smiley;)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Hopefully the OP didn't feel that way . Nor made to feel it was all a hopeless pipe dream with huge obstacles to overcome. It matters not though, as the OP did not feel encouraged enough to return to the thread to further explore possibilities and alternatives , so all the assorted cautions paid off.

Perhaps the suggestion of an independent thread or wiki article which highlights assorted downsides of living in France would be the ticket.
Something factual including bureaucracy, taxation etc. That way newbies could simply be pointed to such a thread rather than having cold water poured on their first initial ideas . You never know , some might actually stick around and effect a successful move despite everything.

Oh and FWIW. France and the French forum is not alone in having those that are unhappy in their new chosen country. Nor alone in having those ever ready with the cautions or conversely the throw caution to the wind attitude.

Thing is to get the balance where the newbie gets to have the conversation at least and can then make up their own mind what they wish to chance or what they can alter or compromise to realise their wish for change.

So. Let me know when you have collated the factual caution thread and I will stick that for you all.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

With all due respect, the OP was grateful for our advice and she was aware of the drawbacks involved. She has been given food for thought, and IMO is digesting the pros and cons.... In any case, unlike many newbies, she had two advantages - an OH with an income and knowledge of French.
We aren't necessarily unhappy in France - I for one have been here for more than 40 years - but when a newbie announces their intentions to move to France without a job lined up, with children in tow, without speaking the language, sometimes with health issues, I for one can't avoid pointing out the obvious as diplomatically as possible, for their own sakes.
Some newbies simply want to move out of the UK and choose France/Spain/Portugal/Italy, without being aware of the ever-declining economic situation in southern Europe. And members in the respective forums usually give the same advice. They must be happy in their chosen country, having adapted to the situation or not really being affected by it (retirees for example), but, like us in France, want the newbies to take their rose-tinted glasses off and see the reality of what awaits them, before they take the plunge. As I often say, "fore-warned is fore-armed", and the newbies make their own decision.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

The "sticky" -"FAQ about moving to France" already exists but is out-of-date.
It is quite comprehensive with sub-texts for each subject.
Perhaps we could go through it and update and augment it.
Important points that are raised again and again are:
Schooling.
Healthcare.
Employment.
Running a business.
Taxation including Inheritance Tax.
Buying or renting a home.
etc.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

What a mammouth task that Val undertook! and what a pity that, inevitably, a lot of it is out of date. I didn't check all, but the subjects seem to have just links to sites, without comments from members.
Maybe a new sticky along the lines of "What you may not know about the French way of living", and each subject above (plus knowing the language, care for the elderly, benefits, etc...) could have a Thread of its own? Members could post current info, add changes in laws, pitfalls and recommendations on certain subjects,... remaining factual, without prejudice.
Just a suggestion!:)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Crikey you are right cyrian. I had not looked at it for years
Spainforum used to have an excellent one started I believe by Rugbymatt (apologies if not)

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Never heard of him....

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

This sounds an excellent idea. Old stickies with out of date info is not a good look really I suppose.

Perhaps one of you can start such a thread and I will sticky it for you but leave it open so the community can add to it and update it.

Once something credible is up and running I will drop off Vals wonderful effort. Until then I'll leave it as it could be useful to the new thread.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Would one way forward be to start a thread on one topic to attract the collective experience of the members and then summarise the result?
Then, the same could happen with the next topic etc. etc.
These could then be collected into a sticky with each sub-heading.
I will start the ball rolling with an "opening a bank account" thread.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Sorry Cyrian, I should have read this first!:o:o

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

No problem.
I do not have the experience to cover many topics and it needs input from others who know better than me.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Even though I don't often log in this forum, I read it very very often. As a French person (excuse my English), I must agree that things have really changed here. You are right when you mention all the administrative problems in any area. Even a French has to fight with the mairie, the préfecture, the social security, plus the rsi and the ursaaf for those who are auto-entrepreneurs. As we say here, when dealing with all the administrative matters, you have to rely on the person whom you meet at the counter. If he or she is not ready to answer you right away (does he or she know the procedure ?) this person will take weeks or months to give you the right answer. My daughter has been waiting for a signature from a mairie for weeks now despite her many phone calls and visits and she cannot start her business. And before the mairie, she had to deal with the préfecture, which took her 3 months. And believe me, her French is excellent !
My other daughter has been living in England for 17 years now and her British husband wants to come to France. He does not understand why my daughter and myself are so reluctant to share this idea but if they actually came to France, neither of them would have a job : she's a freelance accountant (which is strictly forbidden in France) and he does not speak French. Besides, their son aged 6 understands French but does not want to speak it. So !!!

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Good morning Clo. Perhaps we can prevail upon you to help the rest of us help others with the inevitable difficulties of any move?:fingerscrossed:

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Clo49 raises some interesting points here.
We have been waiting since Sept 2013 for my next-door neighbour (an artisan /general maintenance guy) to do a small job for me on the roof. He agreed to do the task, and I've since reminded him - once only!

And we've been waiting for our heating maintenance guy, to change a rather specially designed tap over the kitchen sink. Asked for an estimate during his last visit in May of last year, and called him back as a reminder in Sept last year. Still waiting! During last year's visit we also discussed with him about the possibility of installing air-conditioning. He said he would send us a detailed estimate. Nothing to date! As for 3 other plumbers we have 'experience' with, well what can I say? In terms of reliability & customer satisfaction they absolutely stink. Too much contact with drains no doubt!

And in Feb this year, we called 3 other workman for an estimate to add additional loft insulation. One didn't reply, the 2 others said they would send us a written estimate. Only one did, and it was EXPENSIVE! So recently we randomly contacted another listed in Yellow Pages. He said he would send us a detailed estimate within 3 days. Much to our surprise we received it 2 days later, very detailed and to our satisfaction. Called him back to accept the job. He came the following week, and performed a superbly professional job in a day & half, even brushing up every trace of stray insulation material that had escaped from the bags and the blower. Oh, I forgot to add - he wasn't French. He was Turkish. Spoke pretty good French, and was genuinely one of the most reliable and professional workmen we've ever had. Told him we would definitely call on his services again.
Talk about Turkish delight.......

Often a young child doesn't want to speak a second language (even when they can) until they have young friends with whom to converse in that same language. This was the case with our son, who was brought up in a bi-lingual environment here in France. We would generally converse at home in French, but I always spoke directly to him in English from a very early age. But he was always a little reluctant to answer back in English, it was often in French. Until we moved to Italy, (he was then about 5 or 6) where from day one he was thrown into an additional language - which he loved, and had for the first time, young English friends in his class. Within weeks he began to converse much more with me in English, I guess because of his friends it became more of a 'living', and perhaps even a 'fun' language.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Just for a bit of contrast, we use the same two French cousins for just about everything. They have most trades covered between them.
Two weeks ago, the far end of one of the barn roof timbers cracked. Just a small storm and we would have lost a measurable amount of the roof. I rang Samuel (who I know is absolutely snowed under at the moment) and he had a chap here the very next morning.
I now have a problem with the old bathroom (plumbing done when we bought the house) and when I rang Charles last night he was most apologetic that he cannot get here before Monday.
I do know, listening to others that we are very lucky, and we may not be typical. I wonder if it is the mince pies Er Indoors makes for their children every year. Mind you, her Victoria sponge when they did the roof went down a treat too!

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

Sometimes I don't mind French artisans being hopeless - my plumber did quite a big job in early 2014, and since then I've reminded him twice that he never sent an invoice, last time being this June. Shan't remind him again, but the trouble is, he wasn't a bad plumber but I'll need to find a different one next time I need a plumber, just in case calling him out again jogs his memory.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

I feel that many Brits under estimate how difficult it is to converse in a foreign language.
My daughter studied for a year in France in an ecole superieure after having studied french throughout school and 3 years at a UK university.
Initially, she relied on my OH to arrange accommodation; bank account and setting up utilities. After a few months she was fluent with the other students.
Communicating in day-to-day french and maintaining a conversation is difficult. Dealing with officials is 10 times worse.
For those who post "I do not speak french but I will learn" - good luck - it is harder than you think.

Re: To move... or not to move?
 

My university sent me off to France for the third year of the course and it made all the difference in the world - when I arrived I was stuttering and hesitating and got sweaty palms when I had to go and talk to the bank and stuff, and by the end of the year I was fine. But, I don't think I actually learned all that much more French, in terms of vocab and grammar, because I knew it (well sort of) already. It was just a question of confidence and getting the mindset right so that I could actually make good use of all the stuff that I already knew. So I think there's two parts to it - you learn French, but also you learn how to USE your French. Somebody that doesn't know a lot of French but is good at using what they do know, will actually get by far better in conversation than somebody who knows lots of vocabulary and can write subjunctives like falling off a log, but can't get words out of their mouth.
Or that's my take on it.