Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
Nov 13th 2020, 1:26 pm
#1
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,890
Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
I've always understood that AirBnBs, gîtes and the like were intended for short-term lets for pleasure (or for travellers on business) to people having a primary residence elsewhere, and that they weren't acceptable as justification of residence for Britons wishing to benefit from the WA before 31st December 2020. If they offered a 12-month lease, which would be acceptable, then they would have to change their business status.
We have always advised that a 12-month lease taken out by December (and which would be relatively easy to terminate in 2021 once permanent accommodation has been found), would suffice, together with Utility Bills indicating consumption of electricity, for example, shopping receipts, etc.... during December.
Now I read on other forums that AirBnB/gîte owners can make "Attestations d'hébergement", without any money being involved. This seems odd and even cavalier, committing themselves to give free accommodation to complete strangers, so that the latter have proof of "living" here before 31st December. Hotel bills will apparently also be accepted. Is this fake news, or just thoughtless wishful thinking, encouraging others to take the plunge without official justification of what they're saying?
Or have I missed an episode?
Thankfully I'm not concerned by the issue, but I am concerned about new arrivals not being able to properly justify to the Powers-that-be in 2021, that their principal residence before 31st December 2020 was indeed in France.
We have always advised that a 12-month lease taken out by December (and which would be relatively easy to terminate in 2021 once permanent accommodation has been found), would suffice, together with Utility Bills indicating consumption of electricity, for example, shopping receipts, etc.... during December.
Now I read on other forums that AirBnB/gîte owners can make "Attestations d'hébergement", without any money being involved. This seems odd and even cavalier, committing themselves to give free accommodation to complete strangers, so that the latter have proof of "living" here before 31st December. Hotel bills will apparently also be accepted. Is this fake news, or just thoughtless wishful thinking, encouraging others to take the plunge without official justification of what they're saying?
Or have I missed an episode?
Thankfully I'm not concerned by the issue, but I am concerned about new arrivals not being able to properly justify to the Powers-that-be in 2021, that their principal residence before 31st December 2020 was indeed in France.
Nov 13th 2020, 3:01 pm
#2
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
Yes, people seem to have suddenly latched onto the 'attestation d'hébergement' big time, as if it's some kind of panacea.
It's supposed to be used by a private individual who is providing accommodation in their own home, free of charge, to someone they know, usuallly relative, friend, friend of a friend or work colleague.
It is incorrect for a gite owner who is letting their gite out to people. Who knows, apart from those concerned, whether money is changing hands under the table or not.
Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't
Apart from anything else, renting out tourist accommodation during lockdown is illegal isn't it?
The thing is IMHO, hotel bills or short term accommodation will be absolutely fine if a person is working in France. If you have an employment contract that's sufficient in itself and your case is proved without looking any further, nobody is going to question your living arrangements as long as you have some kind of address. But for a person who has no obvious reason to be in France I think the living arrangements will be a more important factor in the decision. So it's simply not possible give a definite answer - which people seem to insisting on - and say that this kind of accommodation is acceptable and that kind of accommodation isn't. The decision is made on the application as a whole. Take two people who arrived in France on the same day and booked into the same hotel on the same day, one has a job and one doesn't, the decision may well be different.
That said, France has said it will be generous so hopefully it won't be too picky. This is only for the temporary CdS after all, not the permanent one. But prefectures feels their generosity is being abused, it might be a different story.
It's supposed to be used by a private individual who is providing accommodation in their own home, free of charge, to someone they know, usuallly relative, friend, friend of a friend or work colleague.
It is incorrect for a gite owner who is letting their gite out to people. Who knows, apart from those concerned, whether money is changing hands under the table or not.
Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't
Apart from anything else, renting out tourist accommodation during lockdown is illegal isn't it?
The thing is IMHO, hotel bills or short term accommodation will be absolutely fine if a person is working in France. If you have an employment contract that's sufficient in itself and your case is proved without looking any further, nobody is going to question your living arrangements as long as you have some kind of address. But for a person who has no obvious reason to be in France I think the living arrangements will be a more important factor in the decision. So it's simply not possible give a definite answer - which people seem to insisting on - and say that this kind of accommodation is acceptable and that kind of accommodation isn't. The decision is made on the application as a whole. Take two people who arrived in France on the same day and booked into the same hotel on the same day, one has a job and one doesn't, the decision may well be different.
That said, France has said it will be generous so hopefully it won't be too picky. This is only for the temporary CdS after all, not the permanent one. But prefectures feels their generosity is being abused, it might be a different story.
Nov 14th 2020, 7:03 am
#3
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,890
Re: Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
Yes, people seem to have suddenly latched onto the 'attestation d'hébergement' big time, as if it's some kind of panacea.
It's supposed to be used by a private individual who is providing accommodation in their own home, free of charge, to someone they know, usuallly relative, friend, friend of a friend or work colleague.
It is incorrect for a gite owner who is letting their gite out to people. Who knows, apart from those concerned, whether money is changing hands under the table or not.
Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't
Apart from anything else, renting out tourist accommodation during lockdown is illegal isn't it?
The thing is IMHO, hotel bills or short term accommodation will be absolutely fine if a person is working in France. If you have an employment contract that's sufficient in itself and your case is proved without looking any further, nobody is going to question your living arrangements as long as you have some kind of address. But for a person who has no obvious reason to be in France I think the living arrangements will be a more important factor in the decision. So it's simply not possible give a definite answer - which people seem to insisting on - and say that this kind of accommodation is acceptable and that kind of accommodation isn't. The decision is made on the application as a whole. Take two people who arrived in France on the same day and booked into the same hotel on the same day, one has a job and one doesn't, the decision may well be different.
That said, France has said it will be generous so hopefully it won't be too picky. This is only for the temporary CdS after all, not the permanent one. But prefectures feels their generosity is being abused, it might be a different story.
It's supposed to be used by a private individual who is providing accommodation in their own home, free of charge, to someone they know, usuallly relative, friend, friend of a friend or work colleague.
It is incorrect for a gite owner who is letting their gite out to people. Who knows, apart from those concerned, whether money is changing hands under the table or not.
Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't
Apart from anything else, renting out tourist accommodation during lockdown is illegal isn't it?
The thing is IMHO, hotel bills or short term accommodation will be absolutely fine if a person is working in France. If you have an employment contract that's sufficient in itself and your case is proved without looking any further, nobody is going to question your living arrangements as long as you have some kind of address. But for a person who has no obvious reason to be in France I think the living arrangements will be a more important factor in the decision. So it's simply not possible give a definite answer - which people seem to insisting on - and say that this kind of accommodation is acceptable and that kind of accommodation isn't. The decision is made on the application as a whole. Take two people who arrived in France on the same day and booked into the same hotel on the same day, one has a job and one doesn't, the decision may well be different.
That said, France has said it will be generous so hopefully it won't be too picky. This is only for the temporary CdS after all, not the permanent one. But prefectures feels their generosity is being abused, it might be a different story.
- The potential expats who have left it to the last moment aren't coming with a job lined up. Their reason to be in France before the deadline is that they want to benefit from the WA provisions.
There's no way of knowing how the Préfectures will consider their applications for Résidence next year, hence their need to have proper justification documents.
Even owners of holiday homes in France moving to live here permanently, would need to show Utility Bills indicating consumption of energy, etc... during December 2020 at least, esp. as they wouldn't have used much electricity this year, not to mention proof that their banks/house insurance/Tax Office were notified in 2020 of their change of status from non-Résidents to Résidents (LRARs to them all, posted in December).
I'm not judging non-active late-arrivals, but observing them from the French Administration's viewpoint, and playing at Devil's Advocate to make them aware of what to prepare for in 2021.
Nov 14th 2020, 11:24 am
#4
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Jan 2012
Location: Dépt 61
Posts: 5,254
Re: Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
Oh dear it's another wet Saturday with naff all to do, so this is another long, boring, rambling post from ET.
We'll have to wait and see what happens. All the signs seem to be that those applying for temporary cards will be given the benefit of the doubt. As I said in another thread, I wonder whether this will extend to applications for permanent cards. The Withdrawal Agreement seems to differentiate between the two, and makes it clear that the freedom of movement conditions apply to those applying for permanent residence at least. I'm not sure member states have discretion to be generous on this even if they want, because the EU seems very keen on the rules being applied consistently in every country. But it would be nice to know what the bottom line is, because as I was saying in another thread it would potentially be devastating if folk get their temporary cards without a problem, assume that this means they'll automatically get their permanent cards five years down the line, live here in blissful ignorance of the conditions they are supposed to be meeting, and then at the end of that period get turned down because they haven't met those condiitons..
So far I've only seen one comment on a forum from someone whose application for a temporary card appears to have been turned down. A bit of sleuthing suggests that the person has been here for a couple of years, he set up a micro entreprise when he arrived and obtained a CdS shortly after arriving. The same person also recently posted to say that his CFE tax this year is zero, which suggests that his turnover is extremely low (last year I turned over less than 4k because I left France at the end of February, but I still had to pay CFE for the year). So adding 2 + 2 to make 20, it could be that he was turned down because he applied as a worker and his business was considered not to be genuine and effective. But the whole thing seems very odd because from what he posted, he was rejected by email and the email just said that his application was not being processed, no reason was given which doesn't seem right, and he was also told that his current CdS will remain valid until its expiry date in 2024, which also doesn't seem right. So the whole thing may well be a misunderstanding or an error by the prefecture. Since I only lurk on that forum and have no wish to join in, and nobody else seemed interested in what the poor guy said, it will probably remain a mystery.
- Yes, but so would pretending to accommodate "friends of friends" for free. Whether money changes hands or not, it will fall back on them if and when the Préfecture makes thorough enquiries.
- The potential expats who have left it to the last moment aren't coming with a job lined up. Their reason to be in France before the deadline is that they want to benefit from the WA provisions.
There's no way of knowing how the Préfectures will consider their applications for Résidence next year, hence their need to have proper justification documents.
I agree so far.
Even owners of holiday homes in France moving to live here permanently, would need to show Utility Bills indicating consumption of energy, etc... during December 2020 at least, esp. as they wouldn't have used much electricity this year, not to mention proof that their banks/house insurance/Tax Office were notified in 2020 of their change of status from non-Résidents to Résidents (LRARs to them all, posted in December).
I know people keep saying it's important tell your bank/house insurance/tax office that you've moved, but I'm a bit sceptical how useful this really is. I don't see how going to the tax office and saying Hey I've just moved to France, suddenly becomes proof that you have in fact moved to France. Anyone can walk in and say that. They may make a note of it somewhere but in reality tax residence is decided retrospectively, when your movements over the tax year that's just ended are known. AFAIK France will not confirm that you are tax resident until you've submitted your tax return, had it processed, been assessed for tax and not disputed it. Likewise AFAIK the UK won't confirm that you're non resident until you've given them details of where you spent your time during the year and based on that you have been classed as non resident, dual resident or resident, with or without split year treatment. As I understand the statutory residence test rules, anyone leaving the UK after mid-October won't in fact be classed as non resident in the UK for that tax year because they would have spent more than 6 months out of the tax year there. I moved back to the UK in February 2019 and somehow ended up being classed as resident there for the whole of the tax year April 2018- April 2019.
Banks, AFAIK they also wait until the after end of the tax year when your status has been confirmed, before they will stop taxing you at source. You keep paying your tax, and then when your movements during the year are known and it's clear that you did become non resident you claim back the tax you paid.
House insurance, again I don't see how simply telling your house insurance you are resident, can be used as proof that you are. Anyone can say they're resident and I'm sure the insurers don't verify it. After I came back to the UK I phoned my insurers and said I think I need to change my policy because my house in France isn't my main residence any more, and they said "Well it's up to you, you can if you like but it doesn't make much difference". Turned out the premium was cheaper for a second home, so I did.
What I'm saying is, for tax purposes residence can only be established in retrospect. New arrivals can't be expected to provide that kind of proof upfront. All the prefecture will have to go on is proof of healthcare dated before 31 December which should be pretty black or white, proof of accommodation which will come in all shades of grey and difficult for them to evaluate, and proof of income which might also be a bit grey but that is something they do know how to evaluate.
I'm not judging non-active late-arrivals, but observing them from the French Administration's viewpoint, and playing at Devil's Advocate to make them aware of what to prepare for in 2021.
Time will tell. What baffles me a bit is that the folk who are rushing now, were perfectly happy to let the October 2019 and the December 2019 deadlines pass. Why was it not important then but it is now?
- The potential expats who have left it to the last moment aren't coming with a job lined up. Their reason to be in France before the deadline is that they want to benefit from the WA provisions.
There's no way of knowing how the Préfectures will consider their applications for Résidence next year, hence their need to have proper justification documents.
I agree so far.
Even owners of holiday homes in France moving to live here permanently, would need to show Utility Bills indicating consumption of energy, etc... during December 2020 at least, esp. as they wouldn't have used much electricity this year, not to mention proof that their banks/house insurance/Tax Office were notified in 2020 of their change of status from non-Résidents to Résidents (LRARs to them all, posted in December).
I know people keep saying it's important tell your bank/house insurance/tax office that you've moved, but I'm a bit sceptical how useful this really is. I don't see how going to the tax office and saying Hey I've just moved to France, suddenly becomes proof that you have in fact moved to France. Anyone can walk in and say that. They may make a note of it somewhere but in reality tax residence is decided retrospectively, when your movements over the tax year that's just ended are known. AFAIK France will not confirm that you are tax resident until you've submitted your tax return, had it processed, been assessed for tax and not disputed it. Likewise AFAIK the UK won't confirm that you're non resident until you've given them details of where you spent your time during the year and based on that you have been classed as non resident, dual resident or resident, with or without split year treatment. As I understand the statutory residence test rules, anyone leaving the UK after mid-October won't in fact be classed as non resident in the UK for that tax year because they would have spent more than 6 months out of the tax year there. I moved back to the UK in February 2019 and somehow ended up being classed as resident there for the whole of the tax year April 2018- April 2019.
Banks, AFAIK they also wait until the after end of the tax year when your status has been confirmed, before they will stop taxing you at source. You keep paying your tax, and then when your movements during the year are known and it's clear that you did become non resident you claim back the tax you paid.
House insurance, again I don't see how simply telling your house insurance you are resident, can be used as proof that you are. Anyone can say they're resident and I'm sure the insurers don't verify it. After I came back to the UK I phoned my insurers and said I think I need to change my policy because my house in France isn't my main residence any more, and they said "Well it's up to you, you can if you like but it doesn't make much difference". Turned out the premium was cheaper for a second home, so I did.
What I'm saying is, for tax purposes residence can only be established in retrospect. New arrivals can't be expected to provide that kind of proof upfront. All the prefecture will have to go on is proof of healthcare dated before 31 December which should be pretty black or white, proof of accommodation which will come in all shades of grey and difficult for them to evaluate, and proof of income which might also be a bit grey but that is something they do know how to evaluate.
I'm not judging non-active late-arrivals, but observing them from the French Administration's viewpoint, and playing at Devil's Advocate to make them aware of what to prepare for in 2021.
Time will tell. What baffles me a bit is that the folk who are rushing now, were perfectly happy to let the October 2019 and the December 2019 deadlines pass. Why was it not important then but it is now?
So far I've only seen one comment on a forum from someone whose application for a temporary card appears to have been turned down. A bit of sleuthing suggests that the person has been here for a couple of years, he set up a micro entreprise when he arrived and obtained a CdS shortly after arriving. The same person also recently posted to say that his CFE tax this year is zero, which suggests that his turnover is extremely low (last year I turned over less than 4k because I left France at the end of February, but I still had to pay CFE for the year). So adding 2 + 2 to make 20, it could be that he was turned down because he applied as a worker and his business was considered not to be genuine and effective. But the whole thing seems very odd because from what he posted, he was rejected by email and the email just said that his application was not being processed, no reason was given which doesn't seem right, and he was also told that his current CdS will remain valid until its expiry date in 2024, which also doesn't seem right. So the whole thing may well be a misunderstanding or an error by the prefecture. Since I only lurk on that forum and have no wish to join in, and nobody else seemed interested in what the poor guy said, it will probably remain a mystery.
Last edited by EuroTrash; Nov 14th 2020 at 11:30 am.
Nov 14th 2020, 12:31 pm
#5
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Hérault (34)
Posts: 8,890
Re: Justification of having resided in France before 31st December 2020
It might be long and rambling, which is why I haven't quoted it, but not boring! The weather's pretty grotty here, too....
When I said the Tax Office, I meant the department which deals with Taxes Foncière/d'Habitation, not Income Tax. If those concerned sent an LRAR in that respect, another one to their Bank (to change their Accounts to a Resident's A/C), and while they're at it, to their insurance company (they could also take out insurance for their car dated December 2020), they would have 3 extra justifications (copy of their registered letters and the "AR"s (Avis de Réception = proof of receipt), to lend weight to their claim in 2021 that they were actually living in France before 31st December 2020.
Not to mention having set up private healthcare insurance to cover them from Day 1. I've read that some CPAMs accept the EHIC when applications are made to join the French S.S., but others not. Logically they are only valid for emergencies during holidays, not for future Residents....
Hope all this is of help to those who are waiting for travel restrictions to be lifted, so that they can come to France to live...
When I said the Tax Office, I meant the department which deals with Taxes Foncière/d'Habitation, not Income Tax. If those concerned sent an LRAR in that respect, another one to their Bank (to change their Accounts to a Resident's A/C), and while they're at it, to their insurance company (they could also take out insurance for their car dated December 2020), they would have 3 extra justifications (copy of their registered letters and the "AR"s (Avis de Réception = proof of receipt), to lend weight to their claim in 2021 that they were actually living in France before 31st December 2020.
Not to mention having set up private healthcare insurance to cover them from Day 1. I've read that some CPAMs accept the EHIC when applications are made to join the French S.S., but others not. Logically they are only valid for emergencies during holidays, not for future Residents....
Hope all this is of help to those who are waiting for travel restrictions to be lifted, so that they can come to France to live...
