House renovation english or french builders
Sep 24th 2013, 3:45 pm
#31
Just Joined
Joined: Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Posts: 17
Re: House renovation english or french builders
I'd be very careful about using the term "cowboy builders" when a hard-working cattle hand comes into the saloon after a long day on the trail. I knew a couple of them when I lived in Canada and none ever laid inferior tarmac, bodged a loft conversion or put a nail through a hidden water pipe. I'm sure they'd find it offensive -- and let you know in no uncertain terms. If the intention is to suggest a lack of competence or integrity, how about banker, lawyer or politician builders? I seem to remember making this point to a TV outfit that even used the term for the name of their programme. Don't think they replied.
Al (just heading off to the rodeo)
Al (just heading off to the rodeo)
Oct 4th 2013, 2:08 pm
#32
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 137
Re: House renovation english or french builders
Id' recommend going to the Mairie and seeking his advice on local tradespeople. That's what we did, and we found good local workmen. My reasoning was that the mayor wouldn't recommend rubbish people, and they'd presumably have to work to some credible standard and I could take up any problems (there weren't any) with teh mayor and get him to sort it out, plus it put us in good stead with the mayor (seeking his advice, etc.). Whether the price was 'topped up' with us being English, I don't know, but we had good work done. I know people who've used French and English workmen and had good and bad experiences with both.
At a holiday home we had for 12 years we used French builders exclusively and one of them told me that they value their English customers because we make them tea, are courteous to them and pay our bills promptly. I'm sure that he didn't say that he charged xxx% extra and we never quibbled whereas his local French customers would haggle and know the price that should be paid ... that bit was left unsaid!
But I wouldn't generalise. There's good and bad in both nationalities and ultimately getting references and more references is the only way you will be able to select the builder who suits you.
At a holiday home we had for 12 years we used French builders exclusively and one of them told me that they value their English customers because we make them tea, are courteous to them and pay our bills promptly. I'm sure that he didn't say that he charged xxx% extra and we never quibbled whereas his local French customers would haggle and know the price that should be paid ... that bit was left unsaid!
But I wouldn't generalise. There's good and bad in both nationalities and ultimately getting references and more references is the only way you will be able to select the builder who suits you.
Oct 4th 2013, 4:06 pm
#33
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
Re: House renovation english or french builders
Although I was lucky enough to find someone who did clear up.
Without too much complaint, apart from the occasional "bricoleurs" hissed through clenched teeth.
Needless to say, he now gets first refusal on every bit of work we have going.
Nov 21st 2013, 8:45 pm
#34
Just Joined
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1
Re: House renovation english or french builders
I am interested to hear from anyone who has done a house renvation project in France please. We are looking at a 120m size barn which has come on the market, and their progress from the initial purchase, survey, through to the Marie, and whether you had good or poor knowledge with the language? I also understand that local tradesperson are either rubbish, or don't want to work, or very expensive, so am looking at english tradespeople who come recommended. I know this can be frowned upon locally, but being new to us, want to be sure we do this right. The place we are renting has been renovated, so may be able to use those builders, but am a bit hesitant, and wonder wether we may open a can of worms using locals. We are in a known area for high unemployment and fills me with dread finding anyone locally.The area is the Savoie region.
Nov 22nd 2013, 9:36 pm
#35
Just Joined
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: Charente and Somerset
Posts: 10
Re: House renovation english or french builders
I don't think it matters whether French or British workmen - we have various work needing doing and are using both.
Surely the most important things are -
1. Get several 'devise' to compare pricing
2. Make sure they are registered
3. Check they are insured
4. Talk to them and you can get a feeling how good they are likely to be
5. Get some references for work carried out
Stand a good chance of avoiding a 'bad' one that way
Surely the most important things are -
1. Get several 'devise' to compare pricing
2. Make sure they are registered
3. Check they are insured
4. Talk to them and you can get a feeling how good they are likely to be
5. Get some references for work carried out
Stand a good chance of avoiding a 'bad' one that way
Nov 24th 2013, 10:38 pm
#36
Forum Regular
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 287
Re: House renovation english or french builders
It is not so simple as just paying for a professional.
Recently I decided to do my roof by replacing the lower tiles with Eternit sheeting. Cost about 800 Euros for the sheets plus coach bolts and mastic and sand/cement so 850 Euros max. Took 3 full days by myself.
Immediate neighbour decided to do the same but his roof was half the size. I wasn't there to advise him so he went to a well known local builder.
A team came in and did the job over 2 days. Cost almost 7000 Euros plus them having to return twice later to rectify problems.
A lot to pay for peace of mind.
Recently I decided to do my roof by replacing the lower tiles with Eternit sheeting. Cost about 800 Euros for the sheets plus coach bolts and mastic and sand/cement so 850 Euros max. Took 3 full days by myself.
Immediate neighbour decided to do the same but his roof was half the size. I wasn't there to advise him so he went to a well known local builder.
A team came in and did the job over 2 days. Cost almost 7000 Euros plus them having to return twice later to rectify problems.
A lot to pay for peace of mind.
Nov 25th 2013, 6:51 am
#37
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2009
Location: Scotland & Touraine [37]
Posts: 3,024
Re: House renovation english or french builders
It is not so simple as just paying for a professional.
Recently I decided to do my roof by replacing the lower tiles with Eternit sheeting. Cost about 800 Euros for the sheets plus coach bolts and mastic and sand/cement so 850 Euros max. Took 3 full days by myself.
Immediate neighbour decided to do the same but his roof was half the size. I wasn't there to advise him so he went to a well known local builder.
A team came in and did the job over 2 days. Cost almost 7000 Euros plus them having to return twice later to rectify problems.
A lot to pay for peace of mind.
Recently I decided to do my roof by replacing the lower tiles with Eternit sheeting. Cost about 800 Euros for the sheets plus coach bolts and mastic and sand/cement so 850 Euros max. Took 3 full days by myself.
Immediate neighbour decided to do the same but his roof was half the size. I wasn't there to advise him so he went to a well known local builder.
A team came in and did the job over 2 days. Cost almost 7000 Euros plus them having to return twice later to rectify problems.
A lot to pay for peace of mind.
I have known a guy for years who had a slater & plasterer's business until he fell off a roof. He couldn't work for a year and eventually lost his house.
He doesn't do roofs anymore just plastering.
As I get older, I try to keep as much distance between me and my maker as possible. I don't do roofs
Dec 13th 2013, 7:08 am
#38
Hostage Negotiator
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 5,173
The Truth about Building in France
Well I should know – I’ve been doing it for the last 20-odd years, but I’ve retired now so, hopefully, my views on this subject are quite balanced.
Firstly, we are at the end of 2013 and the last year has seen a third of all business failures in France coming from the building sector. It looks like 2014 will be as bad, if not, worse since VAT is going up on 1st January 2014. Business failures are at an all time high so this is very, very bad news for builders.
It’s important to understand this before I come onto my main point which is insurance and which is not mentioned even once on this thread. In France, builders are obliged to have a continuing 10-year insurance (assurance décennale). This insurance is not cheap – in fact nothing is cheap in building and most companies that haven’t already gone bust are hanging on for dear life.
If you are having any building work done, the fact your builder may not be around next year makes it doubly important that he (and you) are covered by this insurance while he is working on your house. When you get his quote you should get proof (attestation) of insurance cover and call his insurance company to confirm (it’s too easy for a builder to create his own documentation). Re-check he is still insured when you sign contracts and when he starts and finishes work. Check on the attestation what kind of work is covered (it may not include roofs or waterproofing, for example) – again check this out with his insurers. Keep these attestations safe – if you have a problem within 10 years then it is the insurer who will pay for repairs (after determining liability, of course).
If you pay the builder in cash you will not be covered by this insurance as there will be no invoice or proof of payment (by the way, it is currently illegal in France to pay professionals more than €3K in cash which is soon to be reduced to just €1K). Also, if you have no contract with the builder and he is using “illegals” to do the work then you will be the one in trouble if URSSAF come wandering by one day.
If you have quotes (devis) which vary a lot in price then you need to check them out very carefully indeed. Apart from the matter of insurance it’s important to make sure that everything is included because it’s too easy for a disreputable builder to get a job on the basis of a cheap quote and then start charging for extras. You are in a weak negotiating position when half your house has been ripped apart. Conversely, don’t expect the builder to be a mind-reader when it comes to the finishing work. This is often more expensive than the actual building work but the client doesn’t always understand this. If you are not doing the finishing yourself then make sure this work is properly specified up front. If your builder is English then all of the contract can legally be in English but if he is French and your own French is not so good then you will need help especially with the technical terms (what is a treillis soudé for example?)
My final point is that as well as bad builders (I note that the term cowboy is offensive to ranch-hands) there are also bad clients. Civil legal proceedings in France are extremely time-consuming. It’s may be tempting to hold back paying that last bill because of some minor things which are still outstanding but remember the builder’s profit (which is quite small after paying all the taxes and social charges) is probably in that last payment. Try to find a way to narrow the gap and meet his needs and you’re more likely to get the job finished to your satisfaction. Whatever you do, don’t end up in court – life’s too short!
Firstly, we are at the end of 2013 and the last year has seen a third of all business failures in France coming from the building sector. It looks like 2014 will be as bad, if not, worse since VAT is going up on 1st January 2014. Business failures are at an all time high so this is very, very bad news for builders.
It’s important to understand this before I come onto my main point which is insurance and which is not mentioned even once on this thread. In France, builders are obliged to have a continuing 10-year insurance (assurance décennale). This insurance is not cheap – in fact nothing is cheap in building and most companies that haven’t already gone bust are hanging on for dear life.
If you are having any building work done, the fact your builder may not be around next year makes it doubly important that he (and you) are covered by this insurance while he is working on your house. When you get his quote you should get proof (attestation) of insurance cover and call his insurance company to confirm (it’s too easy for a builder to create his own documentation). Re-check he is still insured when you sign contracts and when he starts and finishes work. Check on the attestation what kind of work is covered (it may not include roofs or waterproofing, for example) – again check this out with his insurers. Keep these attestations safe – if you have a problem within 10 years then it is the insurer who will pay for repairs (after determining liability, of course).
If you pay the builder in cash you will not be covered by this insurance as there will be no invoice or proof of payment (by the way, it is currently illegal in France to pay professionals more than €3K in cash which is soon to be reduced to just €1K). Also, if you have no contract with the builder and he is using “illegals” to do the work then you will be the one in trouble if URSSAF come wandering by one day.
If you have quotes (devis) which vary a lot in price then you need to check them out very carefully indeed. Apart from the matter of insurance it’s important to make sure that everything is included because it’s too easy for a disreputable builder to get a job on the basis of a cheap quote and then start charging for extras. You are in a weak negotiating position when half your house has been ripped apart. Conversely, don’t expect the builder to be a mind-reader when it comes to the finishing work. This is often more expensive than the actual building work but the client doesn’t always understand this. If you are not doing the finishing yourself then make sure this work is properly specified up front. If your builder is English then all of the contract can legally be in English but if he is French and your own French is not so good then you will need help especially with the technical terms (what is a treillis soudé for example?)
My final point is that as well as bad builders (I note that the term cowboy is offensive to ranch-hands) there are also bad clients. Civil legal proceedings in France are extremely time-consuming. It’s may be tempting to hold back paying that last bill because of some minor things which are still outstanding but remember the builder’s profit (which is quite small after paying all the taxes and social charges) is probably in that last payment. Try to find a way to narrow the gap and meet his needs and you’re more likely to get the job finished to your satisfaction. Whatever you do, don’t end up in court – life’s too short!
Dec 13th 2013, 10:13 am
#39
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
Re: The Truth about Building in France
Well I should know – I’ve been doing it for the last 20-odd years, but I’ve retired now so, hopefully, my views on this subject are quite balanced.
Firstly, we are at the end of 2013 and the last year has seen a third of all business failures in France coming from the building sector. It looks like 2014 will be as bad, if not, worse since VAT is going up on 1st January 2014. Business failures are at an all time high so this is very, very bad news for builders.
It’s important to understand this before I come onto my main point which is insurance and which is not mentioned even once on this thread. In France, builders are obliged to have a continuing 10-year insurance (assurance décennale). This insurance is not cheap – in fact nothing is cheap in building and most companies that haven’t already gone bust are hanging on for dear life.
If you are having any building work done, the fact your builder may not be around next year makes it doubly important that he (and you) are covered by this insurance while he is working on your house. When you get his quote you should get proof (attestation) of insurance cover and call his insurance company to confirm (it’s too easy for a builder to create his own documentation). Re-check he is still insured when you sign contracts and when he starts and finishes work. Check on the attestation what kind of work is covered (it may not include roofs or waterproofing, for example) – again check this out with his insurers. Keep these attestations safe – if you have a problem within 10 years then it is the insurer who will pay for repairs (after determining liability, of course).
If you pay the builder in cash you will not be covered by this insurance as there will be no invoice or proof of payment (by the way, it is currently illegal in France to pay professionals more than €3K in cash which is soon to be reduced to just €1K). Also, if you have no contract with the builder and he is using “illegals” to do the work then you will be the one in trouble if URSSAF come wandering by one day.
If you have quotes (devis) which vary a lot in price then you need to check them out very carefully indeed. Apart from the matter of insurance it’s important to make sure that everything is included because it’s too easy for a disreputable builder to get a job on the basis of a cheap quote and then start charging for extras. You are in a weak negotiating position when half your house has been ripped apart. Conversely, don’t expect the builder to be a mind-reader when it comes to the finishing work. This is often more expensive than the actual building work but the client doesn’t always understand this. If you are not doing the finishing yourself then make sure this work is properly specified up front. If your builder is English then all of the contract can legally be in English but if he is French and your own French is not so good then you will need help especially with the technical terms (what is a treillis soudé for example?)
My final point is that as well as bad builders (I note that the term cowboy is offensive to ranch-hands) there are also bad clients. Civil legal proceedings in France are extremely time-consuming. It’s may be tempting to hold back paying that last bill because of some minor things which are still outstanding but remember the builder’s profit (which is quite small after paying all the taxes and social charges) is probably in that last payment. Try to find a way to narrow the gap and meet his needs and you’re more likely to get the job finished to your satisfaction. Whatever you do, don’t end up in court – life’s too short!
Firstly, we are at the end of 2013 and the last year has seen a third of all business failures in France coming from the building sector. It looks like 2014 will be as bad, if not, worse since VAT is going up on 1st January 2014. Business failures are at an all time high so this is very, very bad news for builders.
It’s important to understand this before I come onto my main point which is insurance and which is not mentioned even once on this thread. In France, builders are obliged to have a continuing 10-year insurance (assurance décennale). This insurance is not cheap – in fact nothing is cheap in building and most companies that haven’t already gone bust are hanging on for dear life.
If you are having any building work done, the fact your builder may not be around next year makes it doubly important that he (and you) are covered by this insurance while he is working on your house. When you get his quote you should get proof (attestation) of insurance cover and call his insurance company to confirm (it’s too easy for a builder to create his own documentation). Re-check he is still insured when you sign contracts and when he starts and finishes work. Check on the attestation what kind of work is covered (it may not include roofs or waterproofing, for example) – again check this out with his insurers. Keep these attestations safe – if you have a problem within 10 years then it is the insurer who will pay for repairs (after determining liability, of course).
If you pay the builder in cash you will not be covered by this insurance as there will be no invoice or proof of payment (by the way, it is currently illegal in France to pay professionals more than €3K in cash which is soon to be reduced to just €1K). Also, if you have no contract with the builder and he is using “illegals” to do the work then you will be the one in trouble if URSSAF come wandering by one day.
If you have quotes (devis) which vary a lot in price then you need to check them out very carefully indeed. Apart from the matter of insurance it’s important to make sure that everything is included because it’s too easy for a disreputable builder to get a job on the basis of a cheap quote and then start charging for extras. You are in a weak negotiating position when half your house has been ripped apart. Conversely, don’t expect the builder to be a mind-reader when it comes to the finishing work. This is often more expensive than the actual building work but the client doesn’t always understand this. If you are not doing the finishing yourself then make sure this work is properly specified up front. If your builder is English then all of the contract can legally be in English but if he is French and your own French is not so good then you will need help especially with the technical terms (what is a treillis soudé for example?)
My final point is that as well as bad builders (I note that the term cowboy is offensive to ranch-hands) there are also bad clients. Civil legal proceedings in France are extremely time-consuming. It’s may be tempting to hold back paying that last bill because of some minor things which are still outstanding but remember the builder’s profit (which is quite small after paying all the taxes and social charges) is probably in that last payment. Try to find a way to narrow the gap and meet his needs and you’re more likely to get the job finished to your satisfaction. Whatever you do, don’t end up in court – life’s too short!
Dec 13th 2013, 3:13 pm
#40
Forum Regular
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 137
Re: House renovation english or french builders
Jan 26th 2014, 1:30 am
#41
Forum Regular
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 41
Re: House renovation english or french builders
Im also surprised at the innuendoes towards local trades persons, Since January we have had new windows fitted our house rewired and lots of plumbing done. Every trades person has turned up when he said he would charged as was on the quote and been very helpful.
Renovation here is not cheap and don't let anyone fool you in to thinking it is English or French. Avoid Brico Depot it will damage the resale value of your home. Avoid English electricians I have seen far to many homes here with twin and earth which will fail the electrical test.
I have come across a builder here who was a Policeman in the UK and is being sued by a number of his previous clients for failing to meet French regulations.
I would recommend a large pinch of skepticism when dealing with peoples opinions on French tradesmen, there are far to many folk that rest in a little England attitude when moving here and falling into that clic can be catastrophic to your future here because you will never fit in to your local community.
I will point out again that 99 percent of people never use a surveyor here with little or not issues as pretty much all of us are buying into a building project lifestyle and to be fair I'm a little concerned with what he or she could cost you in the long term. If I were you I would get quotes from builders at the same time because a tradesman does not have to agree with what a surveyor thinks it should cost to renovate a property. Also how do the surveyor's qualifications hold up here and what does their insurance cover in case of misjudgement.
Old barns will always swallow twice what you think they can without making them fancy. Peeling back one stone means re'cementing 10. Cement vs Lime Oak vs pine Wood vs pvc little decisions can make a big differance to the overall outcome.
Renovation here is not cheap and don't let anyone fool you in to thinking it is English or French. Avoid Brico Depot it will damage the resale value of your home. Avoid English electricians I have seen far to many homes here with twin and earth which will fail the electrical test.
I have come across a builder here who was a Policeman in the UK and is being sued by a number of his previous clients for failing to meet French regulations.
I would recommend a large pinch of skepticism when dealing with peoples opinions on French tradesmen, there are far to many folk that rest in a little England attitude when moving here and falling into that clic can be catastrophic to your future here because you will never fit in to your local community.
I will point out again that 99 percent of people never use a surveyor here with little or not issues as pretty much all of us are buying into a building project lifestyle and to be fair I'm a little concerned with what he or she could cost you in the long term. If I were you I would get quotes from builders at the same time because a tradesman does not have to agree with what a surveyor thinks it should cost to renovate a property. Also how do the surveyor's qualifications hold up here and what does their insurance cover in case of misjudgement.
Old barns will always swallow twice what you think they can without making them fancy. Peeling back one stone means re'cementing 10. Cement vs Lime Oak vs pine Wood vs pvc little decisions can make a big differance to the overall outcome.
Jan 26th 2014, 1:41 am
#42
Born again atheist
Joined: Jul 2005
Location: Europe (to be specified).
Posts: 30,259
Re: House renovation english or french builders
I think I know the ex-policeman you mention - cost me thousands to put right what he did. The other English 'builders' were equally disastrous. Would you put a new roof on a house and leave gaping gaps between the roof and the top of the walls??? And gaps under the windows which aren't actually screwed into the walls? I found him on 'findatradeinfrance' so BEWARE, the ex-UK so-called 'builders' seem to think the rest of the expat community owe them a living.
I've mentioned that site on here at least twice, because I had luck finding a trustworthy team of contractors on there about 5 years ago.
We still use the same guys and have no complaints at all.
I'm quite certain none of them are ex-policeman though and Normandy is a bit far to travel from Limousin.
Jan 26th 2014, 9:24 am
#43
Quien no sabe
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,989
Re: House renovation english or french builders
I think I know the ex-policeman you mention - cost me thousands to put right what he did. The other English 'builders' were equally disastrous. Would you put a new roof on a house and leave gaping gaps between the roof and the top of the walls??? And gaps under the windows which aren't actually screwed into the walls? I found him on 'findatradeinfrance' so BEWARE, the ex-UK so-called 'builders' seem to think the rest of the expat community owe them a living.
Jan 27th 2014, 11:53 am
#44
Just Joined
Joined: Oct 2013
Location: Charente and Somerset
Posts: 10
Re: House renovation english or french builders
We have both English and French tradespeople working on the house (including an English electrician) and the work is excellent from whoever.
We got to know the various people, asked questions, looked at examples of work etc. before making a decision on who. I wouldn't make the distinction between English and 'local' as some of our English tradesmen have been in France (and local to us) for many years.
It's more about making sure you get a good one and one that is in tune with the house and the work that you need doing.
Jan 27th 2014, 12:57 pm
#45
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Jan 2008
Location: The Charente - still smiling.
Posts: 2,624
Re: House renovation english or french builders
As you say 'references are a must' - same in France as UK.
We have both English and French tradespeople working on the house (including an English electrician) and the work is excellent from whoever.
We got to know the various people, asked questions, looked at examples of work etc. before making a decision on who. I wouldn't make the distinction between English and 'local' as some of our English tradesmen have been in France (and local to us) for many years.
It's more about making sure you get a good one and one that is in tune with the house and the work that you need doing.
We have both English and French tradespeople working on the house (including an English electrician) and the work is excellent from whoever.
We got to know the various people, asked questions, looked at examples of work etc. before making a decision on who. I wouldn't make the distinction between English and 'local' as some of our English tradesmen have been in France (and local to us) for many years.
It's more about making sure you get a good one and one that is in tune with the house and the work that you need doing.
As a good friend and his (French ) wife said "why would they not be in the UK if they were good at their work".
Now that is a sweeping generalisation and unfair to those who are respectable tradesmen. But from it I constructed a rule of thumb.
First ONLY deal with registered artisans.
Second and then ONLY if they speak French.
Because otherwise they have no means of learning local needs and usages.