Re: French visa nightmare
 

We would not be here in the EU if Brexit had happened years ago. My partner and I have benefited enormously from freedom of movement and I think it's a dreadful loss and I pity those who have lost it. I consider myself extremely luckily to have an Irish passport.

I agree that Brexit has dashed a lot of dreams because it closes doors, it certainly doesn't open any. There are countless people who could have retired in the EU and managed OK financially but they now fall just below the minimum income requirement so it's no longer an option for them.

​​​The OP's plan was doable with freedom of movement but with visa requirements, I would say forget it.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

To be honest those are not the ones I shed most tears for. I feel most sorry of all for the young Brits who've missed out on opportunities to take summer jobs in the EU and broaden their horizons, and next to that for those of working age who wanted to go to a new country to make a better life for themselves.
Freedom of movement was initially about workers, it wasn't originally invented so that people who had spent their working lives paying their social income taxes in one country, could retire to take advantage of the better quality of life in a country that they have no stake in. That may sound harsh and I'm not saying I'm glad they have lost that freedom because I'm not, but, they are at the bottom of my list of groups to feel sorry for.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I feel desperately sorry for young people who have lost their precious rights to freedom of movement. I suppose I was focusing on older people who we mostly have on here.

Having part of your citizenship removed against your will is unprecedented in peacetime. I still can't get my head around the fact we are actually talking about UK nationals needing visas for living in France.

They whole thing is horrendous.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Well yeah but no but yeah. I wasn't born an EU citizen. I wasn't one, then between the ages of 17 and 64 I was, and then I wasn't again.
Freedom come, freedom go, as the song says

Re: French visa nightmare
 

The fallacy in your argument is that it was only a tiny percentage* of people who ever availed themselves of that right. For most people nothing was lost. ... I certainly never had even the slightest thoughts or interest in living anywhere else in Europe.

* Spain has had, by far, is the largest British expat population in the EU, and yet that peaked at no more than 0.7% of British citizens.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

and we're back full circle...although not many people availed themselves of the right, a lot idly dreamed about it. You pointed out earlier, those with the capital, skills and qualifications can still obtain an employment or entrepreneurial visa...the "dreamers" of modest capital wanting to run a little AirBnB or hoping to live "off-grid" or even have a season or two as a chalet person in a ski resort have no chance any more. When I was an apprentice in the 80s a lot of British welders were working in German in the "Auf Wiedersehen" years..the skilled trades will not have that opportunity next time unemployment rages.

Anyway, we digress..I will keep dreaming, and I'm in the very fortunate position of having the capital to potentially realise my dream in a couple of years.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Unprecedented?
I don't think so, ask the citizens of St. Helena Island who lost their British citizenship in 1981. It took them over 20 years to get it back.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Not sure I follow the "have no stake in" comment. Can only speak for myself but we staked everything, absolutely everything, into our move into Hungary, aside of income tax which is still levied in the UK.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I was thinking really in terms of working or running a business and contributing to the national and local economy, paying tax, paying contributions into the health service, that sort of stake. Rather than a personal stake, of course as you say there is always going to be personal investment in a move. Don't get me wrong; I am not saying that people who move as retirees never get involved in stuff locally, I know a lot that do. But I am also aware of a lot that don't and taking retirees as a group, it seems to me there is a different level of investment (and not only financial) if you compare that group with the group who came over as workers and got stuck in to provide a useful service or do a job that needs doing and pay their dues in the country. Maybe it is different in Hungary but in France as probably everybody is aware there are retired Brits who basically stick with other retired Brits, they do not mix, they don't know and aren't interested in what's happening in their commune or in the country, they are here purely for the sun and the wine by the pool and the cheap property. It is like a long holiday for them and that is how they see it too, some of them have been here for years and they still talk about the UK as "home". I am not blaming them for taking the opportunity when it was there, they had the right so why wouldn't they, but I am just saying that that was not really why the EU set up freedom of movement..

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Not a very good comparison but it does demonstrate that ripping citizenship away from people against their will never ends well.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Maybe, maybe not. The EU could have implemented freedom of movement on a more restricted basis, for work/ business only, but didn't, so I am inclined to think that movement for leisure/ retirement was equally part of the plan. :unsure:

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Ok ET, get you (a bit better!) now. Fair points. I suspect Hungary is much the same in the terms you identify - personally we have no British contacts, whatsoever, out of choice, and have built up a small but valuable circle of Hungarian friends & support / contribute locally, as much as our limitations with the language allow!

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I think if you look back at the history of FoM you'lll find that it was initially only for workers. The rest came later as the EU evolved.
But if you read the EU official blurb about free movement being one of the four pillars etc etc, you'll see it still specifically talks about the free movement of workers being one of the pillars. It doesn't mention any other categories until the very end.
https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp...=457&langId=en

"Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice."

then at the end it goes on to say

Who can benefit from this freedom?

• Jobseekers, i.e. EU nationals who move to another EU country to look for a job, under certain conditions
• EU nationals working in another EU country
• EU nationals who return to their country of origin after having worked abroad.
• Family members of the above.

Rights may differ somewhat for people who plan to be self-employed, students, and retired or otherwise economically non-active people. For more information on these groups, see Your Europe.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

This debate is not really helpful to the OP.

Rosemary

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Actually, I don't think anything has been helpful so far, they left the building shortly after starting the thread....:huh: