French visa nightmare
 

Hi everyone my first time on this forum ,we are hopefully going move to France in April and are having difficulties understanding the visa process, We are funding the move from the sale of our house in the UK. We are not retiring but are going to start a air bnb and a rental business. Please can anyone tell us how to get visa so we can stay in france ?? ,MANY THANKS car&ade

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Welcome to the forum.
Start by reading this.
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/living-in-france

Re: French visa nightmare
 

:welcome:
The French visa application is done online although you also attend an in-person appointment at one of the visa processing centres in the UK. This is the website. It lists the various visas you can apply for and the supporting documents you need to provide for each.type of visa
https://france-visas.gouv.fr/en/web/gb
In your case it sounds as if you need a visa that will give you the right to work in France. For that type of visa you need to submit a good business plan to demonstrate that your business is likely to be successful and earn a sufficient income. I believe for hospitality businesses you also have to get your plan approved by the French authorities, again this is a simple online process once you prepared your business plan. If you're not already familiar with French business structures etc that is something you will need to start looking into, because your plan will need to show that you understand what social taxes etc you will be liable for depending on what business structure you chose. You do not have a lot of time before April. Maybe you would be better off going as a visitor first, either using the visa waiver or on a 6 month visitor visa, and spend the time getting your plans together. Not sure what the rental business will be, do you mean being a landlord or renting out tools and equipment or something? but for the bnb, obviously you cannot start writing a business plan for that before you actually have the property. You need to have the business pretty much set up and ready to go before you apply for the visa because the decision is made partly on how good your business plan is, they will not give you a visa to come to France and start thinking about what kind of business to set up. Also, each time you renew your permit; probably every year to start with, you will have to provide accounts to show that your business is on track, so the plan has to be realistic.

Start by looking carefully at the visa options and good luck with your plans.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Have you researched how much "profit" an Air B and B and I assume holiday rentals make in France and what you need to charge to make a living.The vast majority of gites etc are run as an add on to a pension, a farm, or if one partner is working.You need to research how much the french state will take off you -I think you will have a bit of an unpleasant surprise.
You will need to show as well that you will have a minimum income of €16,236 per person per year after tax and deductions in order to get a visa.This is the french minimum wage in order to show that you will not be claiming benefits
As you say "we" you need to be aware of french inheritance laws and taxes especially if you are not married and how the french tax system works generally
TBF there is no way that you are going to get a Visa in time to move to France in April in view of the fact that you have a lot of work to do to prepare
One short cut may be to try and establish if either of you are eligible for an EU passport based on your ancestry-usually parents/grandparents

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Hi, and welcome to the forum!
Have to agree with what has been said above. For the above reasons, you won't get a working Visa by April, and the suggestion that you come over on a visitor visa to get your plans together, is a good one.
- Have you researched potentially profitable areas? There's a lot of competition in areas of interest.....
- How is your respective French? You should both be at an adequate level to cope with the inevitable bureaucracy (setting up at least one business structure (depending what the rental business is), professional and personal Taxes, Social Security Contributions, to name but a few....); with the local artisans for the inevitable work to be done on the property which you decide on. (Be aware that plumbing and electricity standards are different in France and need to be signed off by a registered artisan); and with potential French clients....
- Does "we" include children and/or older relatives? If so, take a look in the "Schooling" and "Growing Old in France" threads in the Read-Me: Moving to France FAQs above. Likewise, as mentioned, check the Inheritance issue in the same FAQs, and question the Notaire when you see him/her. It will depend on your matrimonial status (and any children from earlier marriages).
We can give more advice if you give us the above info!
Good luck with your plans, but be patient!;)

Re: French visa nightmare
 

This is an important point because for some if not all types of carte de séjour that give you the right to work, you are required to have reached a certain level of competence in French. As I understand it you don't need to demonstrate this when you apply for the visa, but it is required in order to renew, typically at the end of the first year. Leaving the language learning until you arrive can be risky because setting up a new business takes a lot of time and energy, the year passes quickly, suddenly it's time to start the renewal application and you realize you haven't done anything about getting your French up to the required level. Then it gets stressful.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I hope nobody minds my joining this discussion from Iberia.

You may need to rethink your plans. It's one thing to move to an EU state on a non lucrative basis ie not working/earning money in France but another thing entirely to try and set up a business.

I think you would find it much easier to sell your house in the UK, allocate money to buy a property in France and supplement your income with a buy to let in the UK. Believe me, it will make your lives much easier and it will be far easier to obtain a visa in France.

Holiday rentals are highly regulated and very tying and in many respects, it's doing things the hard way.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I agree with you 100% but the catch I see with this plan is, selling your UK house and buying a French house and having enough cash left over for a UK buy to let property that will bring in £2,000 a month or so in rental. How much is a property like that going to cost? Your average family home would not rent for anything like that unless I am very out of date, that sounds to me more like London penthouse flat territory or else buy two or three modest properties.
If you have another income stream and you just need maybe £600 or £800 or so to top it up, that could work but the OP does not say that they have.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I will throw in my 2 cents and add that AirbnB is not something I would base my livelihood on (or even a small fraction of it..).

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I agree, this type of plan would mean the OP would need to lower their expectations with the house in France unless they have a huge budget.

Buy to let is the easier option by far. We have been landlords for years and to give you one example using today's prices, you could buy a one bed flat for £150,000 and achieve a rental income of approximately £700 per month. That is just one example but it gives you an idea of the figures.

Honestly, I wouldn't touch holiday rentals with a barge pole.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Thank you, yes that is about what I thought.
That is the way to do it if you have the cash, no doubt about it, but the OP would need three of those to meet the criteria for two working visas for France.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I don't know anything about the holiday let/ Airbnb market in France, but I think you would be shocked how lucrative the holiday let/ Airbnb market can be (in the US). I know two people who have both rental homes and Airbnb lets, and both make a ****-load off their Airbnb's, (FWIW I am certain that they are entirely unknown to each other and live in different states). The last I heard, one, a colleague of mine, was making three times as much from his Airbnb as he was from the house he rented out, and that was after paying someone else to clean the Airbnb between occupants, change the beds, replace the towels, do the laundry, and ad hoc minor maintenance (such as replacing light bulbs) - that was a fairly unremarkable home in a development, but in the mountains, so was in a somewhat touristy area, but his net income from that one Airbnb is well above poverty level income for a family of four.

The other person, a cousin of Mrs P, has at least a couple of Airbnb's (a house and a converted basement flat), and he lives next door, so can take care of the cleaning and servicing himself, but he also has extremely high revenue, and he isn't in a tourist destination, not near either beach or mountains, not even particularly close to a major highway (a few miles away, so there are many hotels that are closer), and yet he has a high occupancy rate and makes the sort of money from 2 units that most people would consider to be a pretty good salary, literally twice what the other guy is making from his one Airbnb in the mountains, though with him taking hands-on responsibility for the servicing and maintenance.

So while holiday lets might not be something you would want to do, for those with the interest, skills, and especially time to do so, there may be fairly good money to be made. Obviously that depends on being able to find a steady supply of customers, and to be able to deal with the adminstrative and regulatory burden, which I suspect is significantly higher in France than in the US.

All that said, would I move to another country where I wasn't fluent in the language, and not familiar with the laws and regulations, and hang my entire life on starting a holiday let business from scratch? ..... He11 no! And it's worth noting that both the people I described above had other "main" income that they were living on, they were not reliant on their Airbnb income for their daily living expenses - the Airbnb was a side investment, allbeit a lucrative one.

Footnote: This is the sort of question that we have been fielding the US forum since, well, forever, invarably concerning getting a visa to live and work in Florida, and then having holiday lets and some combination of relatively low-skill service business, such as mowing or pool maintenance. Some people do manage to wangle a visa on that basis, but if the business isn't successful, renewing the visa every few years can become a stressful challenge, and may ultimately lead to a capital loss anyway, as there is almost no way to transition from a US self-employed work visa to retirement in the US, unless your business has been an absolutely roaring success and can obtain a (euro-speak) "golden visa". ... And it's about a 50:50 bet as to whether someone posting such a question ever posts on the forum again.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

It's like going to the motor show, though, isn't it? you look at the Rolls Royce stand not because you'll every buy one, but to dream....if you do ask the price, you know you'll be told that if you need to ask, you can't afford it.

Unfortunately Brexit has dashed a lot of dreams.

I have a flat in the Alps...AirBnB is a convenient marketing platform, but forecasting revenue in a very seasonal tourist location would be very difficult.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I would suggest, to continue your Rolls Royce analogy, that Brexit mostly put a stop to dreams that should have remained dreams. If you have to ask how much to invest to "get by", or meet the minimum requirements, then IMO you shouldn't be playing the game, In other words, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

But if you have the investment capital, and the expertise to run whatever business you're planning, then you can still relocate to pretty much anywhere in Europe, or beyond, most countries will give visas to those with business plans and investments to support themselves and, more importantly, pay taxes on.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I agree to some extent and it's a point I have made several times. When you start trying to live a dream, it become reality.. Pre-Brexit, the reality test was when you tried to put your plans into action, and if they didn't work, the reality they turned into could be unliveable. Now, the reality test is when the visa officers scrutinise your plan and say Non this will not work. So yes it saves a lot of heartache.

But at the same time I'm very conscious that if the UK hadn't been part of the EU when I made the move, I wouldn't be here. My plans when I moved to France might have got me a profession libérale visa but it would have been a very borderline decision because my earnings weren't high. There were years shortly after I arrived when I made very little money and struggled badly (the financial crash of 2008 wiped out my two main UK clients within a few weeks of each other and I had to basically start from scratch with a different business activity finding a whole new set of clients in France). I would never have managed to keep scraping through residence permit renewals for the first five years. But in the end it worked out for me and I would say the dream came true. It was a modest dream, I never dreamed of being rich or living in a chateau, I just wanted a little place in France with a boulangerie down the road for my croissants every morning, and generally to be immersed in the "French culture". I have it, and I'm happy, 15 years down the line I still get a buzz out of it. I find it sad that people who have the means can easily move to France for the wine and the sunshine and the good quality healthcare, to live in English-speaking communities and keep all that dodgy foreignness at a distance, while for people who love France and are more than willing to work hard and do what it takes to make a life there, it's off the menu. That's the difference that Brexit has made.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

We would not be here in the EU if Brexit had happened years ago. My partner and I have benefited enormously from freedom of movement and I think it's a dreadful loss and I pity those who have lost it. I consider myself extremely luckily to have an Irish passport.

I agree that Brexit has dashed a lot of dreams because it closes doors, it certainly doesn't open any. There are countless people who could have retired in the EU and managed OK financially but they now fall just below the minimum income requirement so it's no longer an option for them.

​​​The OP's plan was doable with freedom of movement but with visa requirements, I would say forget it.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

To be honest those are not the ones I shed most tears for. I feel most sorry of all for the young Brits who've missed out on opportunities to take summer jobs in the EU and broaden their horizons, and next to that for those of working age who wanted to go to a new country to make a better life for themselves.
Freedom of movement was initially about workers, it wasn't originally invented so that people who had spent their working lives paying their social income taxes in one country, could retire to take advantage of the better quality of life in a country that they have no stake in. That may sound harsh and I'm not saying I'm glad they have lost that freedom because I'm not, but, they are at the bottom of my list of groups to feel sorry for.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I feel desperately sorry for young people who have lost their precious rights to freedom of movement. I suppose I was focusing on older people who we mostly have on here.

Having part of your citizenship removed against your will is unprecedented in peacetime. I still can't get my head around the fact we are actually talking about UK nationals needing visas for living in France.

They whole thing is horrendous.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Well yeah but no but yeah. I wasn't born an EU citizen. I wasn't one, then between the ages of 17 and 64 I was, and then I wasn't again.
Freedom come, freedom go, as the song says

Re: French visa nightmare
 

The fallacy in your argument is that it was only a tiny percentage* of people who ever availed themselves of that right. For most people nothing was lost. ... I certainly never had even the slightest thoughts or interest in living anywhere else in Europe.

* Spain has had, by far, is the largest British expat population in the EU, and yet that peaked at no more than 0.7% of British citizens.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

and we're back full circle...although not many people availed themselves of the right, a lot idly dreamed about it. You pointed out earlier, those with the capital, skills and qualifications can still obtain an employment or entrepreneurial visa...the "dreamers" of modest capital wanting to run a little AirBnB or hoping to live "off-grid" or even have a season or two as a chalet person in a ski resort have no chance any more. When I was an apprentice in the 80s a lot of British welders were working in German in the "Auf Wiedersehen" years..the skilled trades will not have that opportunity next time unemployment rages.

Anyway, we digress..I will keep dreaming, and I'm in the very fortunate position of having the capital to potentially realise my dream in a couple of years.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Unprecedented?
I don't think so, ask the citizens of St. Helena Island who lost their British citizenship in 1981. It took them over 20 years to get it back.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Not sure I follow the "have no stake in" comment. Can only speak for myself but we staked everything, absolutely everything, into our move into Hungary, aside of income tax which is still levied in the UK.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I was thinking really in terms of working or running a business and contributing to the national and local economy, paying tax, paying contributions into the health service, that sort of stake. Rather than a personal stake, of course as you say there is always going to be personal investment in a move. Don't get me wrong; I am not saying that people who move as retirees never get involved in stuff locally, I know a lot that do. But I am also aware of a lot that don't and taking retirees as a group, it seems to me there is a different level of investment (and not only financial) if you compare that group with the group who came over as workers and got stuck in to provide a useful service or do a job that needs doing and pay their dues in the country. Maybe it is different in Hungary but in France as probably everybody is aware there are retired Brits who basically stick with other retired Brits, they do not mix, they don't know and aren't interested in what's happening in their commune or in the country, they are here purely for the sun and the wine by the pool and the cheap property. It is like a long holiday for them and that is how they see it too, some of them have been here for years and they still talk about the UK as "home". I am not blaming them for taking the opportunity when it was there, they had the right so why wouldn't they, but I am just saying that that was not really why the EU set up freedom of movement..

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Not a very good comparison but it does demonstrate that ripping citizenship away from people against their will never ends well.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Maybe, maybe not. The EU could have implemented freedom of movement on a more restricted basis, for work/ business only, but didn't, so I am inclined to think that movement for leisure/ retirement was equally part of the plan. :unsure:

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Ok ET, get you (a bit better!) now. Fair points. I suspect Hungary is much the same in the terms you identify - personally we have no British contacts, whatsoever, out of choice, and have built up a small but valuable circle of Hungarian friends & support / contribute locally, as much as our limitations with the language allow!

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I think if you look back at the history of FoM you'lll find that it was initially only for workers. The rest came later as the EU evolved.
But if you read the EU official blurb about free movement being one of the four pillars etc etc, you'll see it still specifically talks about the free movement of workers being one of the pillars. It doesn't mention any other categories until the very end.
https://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp...=457&langId=en

"Free movement of workers is a fundamental principle of the Treaty enshrined in Article 45 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union and developed by EU secondary legislation and the Case law of the Court of Justice."

then at the end it goes on to say

Who can benefit from this freedom?

• Jobseekers, i.e. EU nationals who move to another EU country to look for a job, under certain conditions
• EU nationals working in another EU country
• EU nationals who return to their country of origin after having worked abroad.
• Family members of the above.

Rights may differ somewhat for people who plan to be self-employed, students, and retired or otherwise economically non-active people. For more information on these groups, see Your Europe.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

This debate is not really helpful to the OP.

Rosemary

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Actually, I don't think anything has been helpful so far, they left the building shortly after starting the thread....:huh:

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Maybe not. Or maybe reflecting on the context of visas and the loss of rights might actually be helpful or at least interesting to the OP and other lurkers, who knows. The OP has already been given all the information that it is possible to give, and hasn't responded, so we don't know what they think.
I used to think it was debate that kept forums alive, didn't realise we were supposed to stick to a Q&A format.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

BE was set up primarily to help people who had moved to or were planning to move to another country so taken at a base level the format is undoubtably question and answers. Members share the knowledge that they have gained about the various regulations and methods of dealing with the paperwork etc and offer their help by talking about their own personal experiences. We all know that what should happen is often different from the real life experiences so this sort of discussion is always relevant. The main purpose of the individual forum for each country is to be helpful.. Debates on a vast amount of subjects are for other areas of BE such as TIO.. Many new members run a mile when established members start with their own agendas and turn an innocent question into an opportunity to debate the subject.

Rosemary

Re: French visa nightmare
 

So is it helpful to the OP to say something like "just come over and you will be Ok and run a business where you will make next to no money but hey we are being "helpful"-NO NO and NO
If the OP comes over here with no visa with no plan and with no escape route back to the UK as they will have sold their house there and gone through their savings in France like there is no tomorrow ending up with them having financial and emotional problems and being deported then that is not being helpful-just the opposite in fact.
At the end of the day Brexit has scuppered the dreams of so many people and burying your head in the sand to this is of no good to anyone

Re: French visa nightmare
 

I often (half)watch the programs about Brits who moved to the EU either to set up a business or to renovate a chateau ;).
It always strikes me how some (a high percentage of them) of them have a very low opinion of their new home country.
Also, most of the parties they organise are basically with Brits.
They try to import all the material they need from the UK. (might be less now with the Brexit red tape)
I always wonder whether they will ever feel at home.

I know, when we first arrived in France in 1996, we got involved with Brits who, having been here for years, didn't speak French and didn't know any French people.
So glad I'm out of that group !

Re: French visa nightmare
 

That seems to happen a lot.
People coming on here asking for information and then they never ever reply.
Are they being rude or lazy, one wonders ... ?
It makes me think twice about putting in an effort though.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Indeed.
It's entirely up to them of course, they don't have to come back if they don't want.
But when you make the effort to answer questions and there is no response, then the thread drifts (though not too far in this case) and you end up having a chat with forum members and you get told it's not helpful, you can't help thinking, What's the point of coming here? And that is a question to which I don't know the answer.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Indeed.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Here, hear!
And so what if it drifts? The OP is always at liberty to jump in and yank the conversation back on track.

Re: French visa nightmare
 

:lol:

Re: French visa nightmare
 

Yes, and I quite enjoying visiting other forums from time to time. ​​​​​​ :)