SBS

Hi,

Had a number of extremely bad experiences with French "artisans" this year. If I extrapolate their quotes to actually rebuilding the house then it would cost 3-5 its market value (in perfect condition). So clearly it just not make sense and surely locals would not consider paying anything close to such prices.

Example 1:
Roofer for 1 day maintenance work. Arrived with his wife. Charged EUR600 for a day's work charging the same rate for his wife as for himself. Insisted that he is paid in cash, otherwise 20% on top. In the UK a builder who would arrive with his wife and expected her to be paid the same rate would be laughed at straight into his face and sent home. In the UK a roofer works with 1-2 much cheaper labourers and could easily find a roofer with 1-2 labourers for £300 per day. And costs of life, especially housing which now by far the greatest expense, in the UK that UK roofer must pay to survive is several times that in France.

Example 2:
Quote to retile 160squm roof ... EUR30k...

Example 3:
Quote to replace 2 smallish dormer windows EUR8k...


At such crazy prices to actually knock off the loft floor of the main house and redo it would cost EUR150k - more than a 3 hectares plot with two houses (six bedrooms, 2 living rooms, three bathrooms in total) is worth at current prices.

Surely I am being charged 2-5 times the going rates - as with these prices and current property prices all those builders would be out of work as it would not be economically viable to build anything in the country except in the handful of super-prime locations.

Does anyone know what are the going rates for different trades in France (rates that they charge to French clients)?

EuroTrash

I think not

One thing you need to bear in mind is that the French social security system works differently to the UK system, and contributions paid by artisans, companies etc are very much higher. Which obviously affects what people have to charge for labour to run a viable and sustainable business, and it also affects the costs of materials (because labour is used at each stage in the manufacturing/distribution process).
As an example (since I'm just doing my accounts for last year) - as a freelancer in France earning a very modest income, I paid well over 5,000€ in social cotisations. In the UK on an equivalent income I would have paid NICs of maybe around £100. Since moving to France I've had to increase my rates for doing the same work quite considerably.

Then there's the fact that French artisans are obliged by law to guarantee the work they do against defects for, in the case of structural work, 10 years, which means taking out decennial insurance, which increases their overheads. This of course is (in theory) an added value for the client.

But in fact it's pointless trying to compare an isolated element across two different national economies. At the end of the day living in France and living in the UK work out roughly the same in my experience, although certain specific elements differ vastly. Housing is far far cheaper in France, healthcare is far far cheaper in the UK. And people adapt their lives accordingly. The French don't tend to 'do up' old properties nearly as much as Brits do, for the reasons you've discovered - it's expensive and you never get your money back.

So - having work done by artisans is considerably more expensive in France than in the UK and there are reasons for it, it cannot be otherwise, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you haven't been ripped off. I had two small double windows on the ground floor replaced recently for around 1000€ so your dormers do look very pricey. There are plenty of cowboys about, as in every country, so you have to be careful who you use. Comparing with UK prices is pointless but what you should always do is get at least 3 quotes for the job, choose the best and then check that the artisan you have chosen is correctly registered and insured, ask your neighbours if they know him, and if possible see other work that he's done. And if you think all the quotes you got are too high, don't accept any of them and keep looking.

PS. I particularly don't like the sound of your roofer. Did he give you a proper invoice with his SIRET number and insurance details on it? If not, I think you should definitely have laughed in his face and sent him home...

SBS

Thanks a lot for the reply. Some nations are commerce driven - like for example British. So it would seem unlikely that three random builders (who might have never met) would have and unspoken understanding that they quote a lot more to foreigners. At least one of them would want the business and quote more or less fairly (even if he dislikes foreigners in principle!).

What I keep reading on the forums is that in France it is not like that, especially when not only the owner is a foreigner but also there is what they might consider a very expensive car (as they are probably not aware of UK car prices for 10 year old cars even of the best of marques) parked on the drive. My family member several years ago, when driving 20 year Citroen, was getting work done for a lot less than it would cost in the UK so it might be a foreigner + car that might be setting French builders into the triple-price mode - even at a significant risk of not getting the business.

So I wonder whether someone knows going daily rates that are charged by various building trades (to French clients who know what they are doing). Equivalent numbers are easily available for UK building trades.

SBS

With virtually all builders / tree cutters I dealt with they would offer to pay at least part in cash and offer a discount for that. So you save the 20% VAT and they probably save a lot more in other taxes as well.

The roofer story was that he did not offer a discount, he upped the price by 20% when I wanted to pay by check. There was something like an invoice (called factur I think) but no proof of payment.

In the UK it is possible to save VAT by paying cash but it is not so common at all like in France where almost everyone offers it as an option at least on, say, 30% of the total amount.

Novocastrian

Did you get a devis? Did you look for a siret number?

EuroTrash

It depends what business structure they work under but generally it's not so much taxes or VAT, it's to avoid social charges which are the killer here. OK for 20 per cent, it is common practice although illegal, but not the whole amount in cash, that's taking the p155. A substantial proportion of it has to go through the books because you need a receipt for a credible amount, otherwise the guarantee is not valid. Asking for the whole amount in cash and refusing a cheque rather suggests that he's not registered. The thing is that in France it's not the person who's working on the black that can be prosecuted, it's the client who employs them, i.e. you; French law makes it your responsibility to check.

Good artisans don't generally charge daily rates, they give you a quote for the job. The devis will often show you the split between labour and materials. Daily rates are a bit meaningless aren't they - if you're paid by the day you don't have much incentive to work efficiently. What's important to you as the client is the quality of the finished job, not how long the artisan spent on it - that's for him to worry about.

SBS

Not sure I did and I did not look for siret number. When I wanted to pay by cheque (because did not like hin and his wife and wanted to make sure he at least pays tax on it) he insisted it is 20% more so ended up paying by cash.

dmu

Google is your friend:
Le tarif horaire d’un couvreur professionnel
was the first result (unofficial) dated 2015.

P.S. this post crossed yours and ET's. If you didn't sign a Devis and your facture hasn't got the artisan's SIRET number and "payé le..." written on it, then keep your fingers crossed that you don't have any roof problems in the next 10 years. He'll probably have done a bunk by then, anyway....

Novocastrian

Ah well. Try doing that next time.

SBS

In the UK (unless you are a known building professional) it also would be very unwise to just agree to a daily rate. However daily rates exist for project builds (where the hirer knows exactly how much work to expect) and also when quoting for jobs many builders have a reference rate in mind - so I would assume there is something similar in France. Taking installation of two windows as an example there could be quite a big differnce in te amount of work involved in different properties. But I believe I can estimate at least aproximately how much a particular job should take and if reference daily rate is known can estimate what sort of quote is fair. For UK builders plenty of sites with information about daily rates and also how mnay days varios jobs could take so I am usually well prepared with regard to potentials costs even before I receive quotes. It means in some cases I see that there is no need to get three quotes, in others that I need more than three or even abandon something altogether if currently market is overheated.

dmu

It can't be emphasized enough that this is France and nothing should be compared with the UK!!

EuroTrash

The comments on that site are interesting - I see there's a guy there had a devis for 13 000€ to replace 3 m² of slates. Makes the OP's quote of 160 m² for 30 000€ seem an absolute bargain

dmu

I didn't scroll down that far!!

SBS

Was shocked by that as well. Really shocking, and it must bee a recent thing as a family member rebuilt that house, and just several years ago had a 60sqm metal roof replaced for just EUR2k - cheaper than it would cost in the UK. (He did drive a 20 year old Citroen and I was warned about the danger of being seen in what might be perceived to be a nice car!!!)

Are new houses being built in France? Given the house prices there and such builders' charges it seems to me all those "artisans" should be without work except for absolutely necessary repairs.

I keep hearing taxes are high, but in the UK taxes are also high. 20% VAT, 40% marginal rate of income tax for most builders. So are taxed in France add up to something like 80 or 90%? Also it looks like taxes in France are more optional than in the UK as here builders do not regularly offer that you pay 20-40% by cash outside the tax system.

EuroTrash

Artisans are specialists. You don't tend to get "general builders". Houses are built, of course, but the guys that lay the bricks and put in the hours aren't artisans and it's said that many of labourers are sans papiers working for low wages, in the Ile de France region at least.

Income tax is not especially high in France and a large proportion of households in France don't pay income tax as their income is below the threshold. As said - it's the social charges that are the killer here. They are only optional in exactly the same sense that declaring what you earn to the taxman in the UK is optional