FrednJacky

Hi all

A little advice, if you please. After several viewing trips, a shortlist of three or four potential properties has been drawn up.

On more than one occasion during the trips, agents have indicated that we'd be throwing away good money if we opted to employ a solicitor to represent us through the house-purchasing process. Instead, they suggested, they were in the ideal position to hold our hand, deal with notaires, guide us through contracts and generally make the transaction the most pleasurable experience of our lives.

On the other hand, everything I've read tells me that the employment of a solicitor who's conversant in French conveyancing is an absolute must.

Now, while we're tempted by the agents' offers, we're definitely more inclined to use a solicitor. Our feeling is that we’d rather employ our own solicitor. It would probably cost more but we’d not have doubts about the impartiality of the advice we’d be receiving. The agent is, after all, trying to sell the house, and it could be construed that his advice might be skewed in one particular direction.

Just wondered if anybody could share their experiences. Did you use an agent or a solicitor in your purchase? Did you feel the decision was the right one? Have you learnt anything since that makes you think you'd do it differently next time?

Any advice will be gratefully accepted and added to our growing pool of information.

Cheers

FrednJacky

cyrian

Hi F & J
The process is totally different from the UK.
On the assumption that you are married, the house may not revert automatically to your wife on your death.
The children have the right in french law to the estate and although the wife has certain rights under the law, you have to set the whole thing up properly initially.
I mean ALL children - from previous marriages or illegitimate.
In France there are 2 types of marriage contract. 1. Communauté des biens. 2. Separation des biens.
The type of marriage contract is normally stated in the purchase document.
Using option 1. the remaining spouse has the right to the house on the first death.
The usual process is that both parties use the same notaire and share the fee. However, you can choose to use your own notaire and each notaire gets half the fee.
I suggest that you consult a notaire with respect to possibly setting up a marriage contract and also a french Will. He will also be able to deal with the buying process for you.
The role of the notaire is not the same as in the UK. His role is not to look after your interests but to ensure that the process complies with the law and that the appropriate taxes are paid.
You need to do your homework and make sure that you understand the process. The law of buyer beware is the law in France.
Have a look at this site http://www.notaires.fr/notaires/en/jsp/site/Portal.jsp

Please also note that the notaire may overcharge you and then rebate any excess fees - this is quite normal.

Good luck

Ka Ora!

You can have an 2nd notaire in the process if you wish, But it is you as the purchaser that decides on the notaire so dont let the agent push you into using a specific one.

LPC

Notaires are government servants, and are required to act impartially. So certainly you and the seller could have a different notaire, but in practice the advice and help you get should be the same, if you had the same one. It is not, as said above, the same as in the UK; the system is totally different.

If you want the UK equivalent of "joint ownership", this must be specifically asked for before any contract is drawn up. It used to be called "clause tontine", but these days is often individually worded as a specific clause invloving "rapports entre les nouveaux proprietaires".

cyrian

The following is an extract from the Notaires de France site
You should know that special rules (bilateral agreements, the Hague Convention, etc.) apply to people from EU member states as well as nationals of countries that have signed special agreements with France.
Let’s take the example of an EU national whose spouse automatically inherits in his/her country of origin and who, under the law of that country, is entitled to change the matrimonial regime. This foreign national may simply adopt the regime of universal community of property, with full ownership of property acquired in France going to the surviving spouse, in accordance with the Hague Convention. This is to override French law which would otherwise apply in the event of death, where the spouse only inherits part of the estate or is only the usufructuary if there are children.
This shows that there are different ways to temporarily by-pass french inheritance law depending on individual circumstances.
You need to plan for this and the route chosen would be best achieved after full discussion with a notaire.

I am not disputing the Clause Tontine just informing the OP about the choice.

cjm

All the above is very sound advice. Heed it. My simple contribution is that if an offer seems to good to be true, then it probably is. What's in it for the agent? He so loves you, he wants to make your dream come true?
Do you trust UK estate agents? If your answer is in the negative, then the question is asked and answered.

FrednJacky

Hi all

Thanks for the responses - however, I'm not sure if I've made myself entirely clear, or if I'm merely misunderstanding the messages.

While the info on inheritance laws is useful, it's not what I'm actually asking about - it's the house purchasing process and whether or not to employ a conveyancing solicitor.

Did people on this forum engage a solicitor, an agent or handle everything themselves? The agents with whom I've spoken have said they could handle the conveyancing, offer translation of the contracts, represent us if we were unable to attend the notaire's office, and then help with the actual settling in - water, electricity, phone connections, etc. The complete package.

As I said previously, it's a tempting option, and one that could possibly save us money, but, on the other hand, the agent is trying to sell the house, so he would say those things, wouldn't he! Engaging a solicitor would probably cost more, but at least he'd be "our man", independent of the sale and representing only us - not also acting for the vendor.

In all likelihood, we'll go down the solicitor route, but I wondered how others had fared, and what they'd done, when it came to buying their first house in France.

Salut

Fred

Ka Ora!

If your referring to an English solicitor they offer very little to no legal sway here in France. If your referring to an Avocat which is a French solicitor they don't get involved in house purchasing and selling unless it's being delt with in a court room.

Simple rules to follow,

1 Get your own Translator, An agent will forget to mention things like death watch beetle or other rights of access which are can occur in France.

2 Anything you know about buying a house from England, Throw it in the bin and be prepared to take some advice.

3 A Notaire deals with all aspects of house buying and selling, They also deal with wills . You can not avoid the notaire and please take your own Translator to any meetings and paper signing's as an Agent can not be trusted as they are just trying to empty your wallet.

4 Relax it's not Spain and buying is a lot safer

5 Forget about using a solicitor, They will offer no protection you need a Translator you can get legally qualified translator's or you can use joe smo off the street just pays to know.

6 Before we get there, There is no building surveyor used in France it's more of a sight as seen. The best you get here at the moment is the silly eco grading visit that is down prior to putting the house on the market.

7 Open a bottle of wine it will help you forget about the English process and embrace the new French one.

And Welcome to the Forum again

dmu

Hi,
couldn't have said it better myself!
As has been said above, the English concept of Solicitor doesn't exist in France.
The Notaire is the only one who can legally conduct a property sale. The Avocat represents you in the civil or criminal Courts, even the lowest ones.
As a consultation with a Notaire is obligatory, you would do well to organise your Will with him/her at the same time. French Inheritence Law is vastly different from in the UK.
Hope we've convinced you that no one has fared anything along the solicitor route, since it doesn't exist here!
Btw, do you need a representative to sign on the dotted line for you as you won't be present? Or simply want to be accompanied by a French-speaking person? In either case, don't use the Estate agent's personnel and certainly don't give them procuration.

P.S. What was the French word that the agents mentioned in your first post used for Solicitor (or are the agents British?).

cyrian

The french love it when british people come to France, don't understand the system and pay too much for a "pig in a poke".
There is a recent thread where a brit purchased in France but didn't realise that the planning permission expired.
She is now stuck with a pile of bricks that she cannot sell. Read the thread
Going further back, someone purchased a house that was riddled with termites - didn't check - can't sell it now.
Inheritance planning is something that you can leave until later in the UK.
In France it is laid down in law and you don't have much control unless you plan properly at this stage.
Please read the website I mentioned - it is full of useful information.
Use a french notaire direct. Take someone with you who is fluent in french if the notaire can't speak english.
Make sure that you ask questions as suggested by Ka Ora.
The notaire is a notary - he notarises the transaction. i.e. He makes sure that it is legal and that appropriate taxes are paid.
The law in France is "buyer beware". You have to look after yourself.
The notaire is neither your nor the sellers agent.
He may tell you about problems you should have checked - but he may not
If you ask the right questions then I am sure that he will give you the answers.

The reason you are getting the replies above is because people have gone through the process themselves and are telling you what you need to consider along with the purchase process.

Good luck

Ka Ora!

On top of this and the main reason I have stipulated a Translator is needed is due to the fact that the French are obliged to disclose major defects at the contracts stage. They normally do, So if the house has Death Watch Beatle issues this is when the matter is mentioned. I do also know personally some one who used an Agent to translate and got done over in that the agent did not translate the bit about DWB which then became costly issue to resolve.

cjm

We have had experience of Notaires who will not act in a sale where the UK client/buyer does not bring in a fluent French translator. As to inheritance, it is not unheard of for a couple to sell up their French property and move back to UK. Sadly, I see French owned properties that I am advised are caught in the inheritance laws and because family cannot agree, the property lies vacant and deteriorates.

Ka Ora, cyrian and dmu have posted excellent advice and comment. In your own interest, listen to what they say.

Tweedpipe

I agree entirely with the latter comment.
In our own experience we opted to use the same notaire as the vendor, but only because we checked on him beforehand and we were also able to converse with the agent without problems - this is a MUST to prevent future potential problems! And when the contract was handed to us, I took two evenings to read through all the small print in detail, and made a few notes for clarification the next day with the agent. Final outcome was fine, which to date still results in zero remorse.
On a related, lighter note, the following is one of my favourite episodes from 'A Year In Provence' where Tony is looking for his French dream house and takes along Peter Male as translator - who gets sidestepped...... Check it out HERE

G-J-B

Having a translator is good advice if you're not absolutely fluent in French. I bought a house from an English couple who had been here 20 years, and despite they had good French, they still took a translator.
The diagnostic will check for certain things, for example a certain type of insect in the wood, but they only check for specific things, and not every nasty wood eating bug out there will be on their checklist for example. You should also check with the local town hall if there are any proposed motorways, planning permissions in effect for neighbouring dog kennels or anything industrial in nature. I think it's impossible to try and cater for every eventuality - just do as much as you can.
Check the plans for land and right of passage carefully. In the tiny hamlet I moved to earlier this month, a British second home owner, owns a bit of land next to her neighbour, and despite showing him the cadastre plans, he's still adament he owns it. Another resident thinks he's the owner of a communal well. There is a public right of way alongside another neighbours house, though they are well aware of it, and it doesn't bother them.

If I could have done the whole house buying situation again, I would have ditched using an agent. They take a huge commission (included in the house price) for next to no work.

cjm

With input from G-B-J this thread could well be a what to do before you buy in France advice column. G-B-J is touching on the small details, but details that are possibly vital in the future. The local Marie will hold much information; use them even if you have to go via a third party who speaks French (eg a Translator). House price costs and commission has moved a little I feel. Once it was, agree the porice and the fees go on top, agent and notaire. Okay notaire is still on top, but you can offer an all-in price for the property to include agent fees. We did this and in a difficult market it can pay off.
The survey gives a little but can miss a lot. For me the jury is out on its usefulness.