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Road to a Grecian turn?

Road to a Grecian turn?

Old Jan 30th 2017, 3:05 pm
  #1096  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
The austerity measures are pretty much required as a direct result of the single currency!

Assuming that the European Onion and the IMF don't want to pour billions upon billions of euros into the Greek money pit year after year, the ONLY solution likely to allow Greece to recover is for Greece to have it's own free-floating currency which it can devalue to regain some sort of stability.

I have no doubt that historians will say that, after the absurd decision to allow Greece to join the euro, the next worst decision was to allow/compel Greece to remain in the euro after 2010. The past seven years have wreaked economic havoc on Greece and the Greeks, and done nothing but delay the recovery they so desperately need.
agree with that entirely
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 3:06 pm
  #1097  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
The Ottoman empire (which included the entire Balkan peninsula, including Greece) was known as "the sick man of Europe" in the mid 1800's, which I learned from reading the book on the Crimean War that I recommended above.
I didn't know that - thanks for the recommendation will follow it up
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 5:43 pm
  #1098  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
It's not the issue matey it's a myriad of issues one of which is Greece's unwillingness to implement reforms - that is the most obvious thing there can be. There are loads of issues some of which you have previously mentioned your self.

With your overly simplistic view of the difficulties it is no wonder you think Saint Yannis the Faker is a genius.
I'm really struggling to think of anything further I can suggest to help you see this from a different perspective.

If you have read everything posted on this thread and all the links and a lot else besides, it should by now be abundantly clear to you that implementing all the toxic so-called reforms demanded by the creditors is not the solution because it will not only achieve the square root of bugger-all, it will be positively damaging. It simply is not possible to keep on sucking life out of the economy, pile on another load of loans and expect the loans to be repaid in full and on time. The reforms being demanded are shrinking the economy besides being politically impossible for the current government to implement. Do they really want to topple yet another government?

Until you accept that, you will be as insistent as you have been throughout this thread that what Greece needs to do is to do everything it's told, just get on with it and lump it. Fortunately, after 2 very extreme doses of bailout this current government is not of a mind to follow the lethal prescription unquestioningly.

And you can stop pretending that Varoufakis is the problem because he has now been out of office for far longer than he was ever in it and you aplauded the appointment of his successor, who is proving to be equally as tough.
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 5:47 pm
  #1099  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I'm really struggling to think of anything further I can suggest to help you see this from a different perspective.

If you have read everything posted on this thread and all the links and a lot else besides, it should by now be abundantly clear to you that implementing all the toxic so-called reforms demanded by the creditors is not the solution because it will not only achieve the square root of bugger-all, it will be positively damaging. It simply is not possible to keep on sucking life out of the economy, pile on another load of loans and expect the loans to be repaid in full and on time. The reforms being demanded are shrinking the economy besides being politically impossible for the current government to implement. Do they really want to topple yet another government?

Until you accept that, you will be as insistent as you have been throughout this thread that what Greece needs to do is to do everything it's told, just get on with it and lump it. Fortunately, after 2 very extreme doses of bailout this current government is not of a mind to follow the lethal prescription unquestioningly.

And you can stop pretending that Varoufakis is the problem because he has now been out of office for far longer than he was ever in it and you aplauded the appointment of his successor, who is proving to be equally as tough.
If you don't want austerity and you don't want Grexit, what do you want?
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 5:55 pm
  #1100  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Debt restructure is what is required and not just for Greece. And a serious look at the future of the euro and how to make it work for the majority of the population that uses it.
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:28 pm
  #1101  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Debt restructure is what is required and not just for Greece. And a serious look at the future of the euro and how to make it work for the majority of the population that uses it.
What you noted above are very noble aims, however, it would be a difficult thing to sell the idea of a Greek debt restructuring to the voters in the Euro zone, as every Euro zone country (big or small) could lost money as a result.

With regards to the future of the euro - given the Greek crisis, the future of the euro my move towards more political unity for Euro zone states - the Germans will not buy the idea of a common Euro zone debt unless there are strong measures like the ECB to pre-approve member state's budget to control Euro zone government expenditure. That can be a hard sell as well.

Without more political and fiscal union between Euro member states, the only way to get out of an economic downturn in theory is to reduce cost - both labour and capital.
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:30 pm
  #1102  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I'm really struggling to think of anything further I can suggest to help you see this from a different perspective.

If you have read everything posted on this thread and all the links and a lot else besides, it should by now be abundantly clear to you that implementing all the toxic so-called reforms demanded by the creditors is not the solution because it will not only achieve the square root of bugger-all, it will be positively damaging. It simply is not possible to keep on sucking life out of the economy, pile on another load of loans and expect the loans to be repaid in full and on time. The reforms being demanded are shrinking the economy besides being politically impossible for the current government to implement. Do they really want to topple yet another government?

Until you accept that, you will be as insistent as you have been throughout this thread that what Greece needs to do is to do everything it's told, just get on with it and lump it. Fortunately, after 2 very extreme doses of bailout this current government is not of a mind to follow the lethal prescription unquestioningly.

And you can stop pretending that Varoufakis is the problem because he has now been out of office for far longer than he was ever in it and you aplauded the appointment of his successor, who is proving to be equally as tough.
The narrow perspective is yours Eric

Varoufakeit is, fortunately, long gone - you bought him up not me where did I say he is currently part of the problem - oh I didn't as you well know please don't add dishonesty to your evasiveness.....

There are a whole lot of things that need to be done, which include debt restructuring, debt forgiveness and deep reform and expanding the tax base etc etc

God - how difficult is it to understand Eric???? Lots to do on all sides - surely you are not so captive to your narrow political ideology that you can't see it isn't that simple?
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:31 pm
  #1103  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by HKG3 View Post
What you noted above are very noble aims, however, it would be a difficult thing to sell the idea of a Greek debt restructuring to the voters in the Euro zone, as every Euro zone country (big or small) could lost money as a result.

With regards to the future of the euro - given the Greek crisis, the future of the euro my move towards more political unity for Euro zone states - the Germans will not buy the idea of a common Euro zone debt unless there are strong measures like the ECB to pre-approve member state's budget to control Euro zone government expenditure. That can be a hard sell as well.

Without more political and fiscal union between Euro member states, the only way to get out of an economic downturn in theory is to reduce cost - both labour and capital.
fine analysis sir
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:43 pm
  #1104  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Debt restructure is what is required and not just for Greece. And a serious look at the future of the euro and how to make it work for the majority of the population that uses it.
it is much more than that

That is merely one element
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:44 pm
  #1105  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Pulaski View Post
If you don't want austerity and you don't want Grexit, what do you want?
A miracle maybe?
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 6:53 pm
  #1106  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
The narrow perspective is yours Eric

Varoufakeit is, fortunately, long gone - you bought him up not me where did I say he is currently part of the problem - oh I didn't as you well know please don't add dishonesty to your evasiveness.....

There are a whole lot of things that need to be done, which include debt restructuring, debt forgiveness and deep reform and expanding the tax base etc etc

God - how difficult is it to understand Eric???? Lots to do on all sides - surely you are not so captive to your narrow political ideology that you can't see it isn't that simple?
I haven't actually brought my political ideology into this at all.

Why, oh why do you keep on and on and on about Greece needing to implement more and more of these so-called reforms without any of the rest of it being done?

And it was you, yet again, who brought Varoufakis back into the conversation. You're obsessed with his now comparatively minor role in all of this. And continuing to be childish with the playground name-calling.
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Old Jan 30th 2017, 7:00 pm
  #1107  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
I haven't actually brought my political ideology into this at all.

Why, oh why do you keep on and on and on about Greece needing to implement more and more of these so-called reforms without any of the rest of it being done?

And it was you, yet again, who brought Varoufakis back into the conversation. You're obsessed with his now comparatively minor role in all of this. And continuing to be childish with the playground name-calling.
I don't it all needs to be done as I have written on numerous occasions please read my posts it's extremely clear

I repeat myself - Varoufakeit is long gone

gone = gone = gone = gone

Surely you get it now?
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Old Jan 31st 2017, 8:13 am
  #1108  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Why, oh why do you keep on and on and on about Greece needing to implement more and more of these so-called reforms without any of the rest of it being done?
Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
I don't it all needs to be done as I have written on numerous occasions please read my posts it's extremely clear
Yesterday :
Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
My take is the IMF is trying to do its best for the global economy and if Greece can't/won't reform then GREXIT might be its best way out of the current mess - there will be lots of blood on the carpet for sure but it might be best in the long run for both Greece and the wider global economy.
Absolutely no mention of anybody else other than Greece needing to undertake actions. Despite the fact that Greece has been implementing reform after reform after reform, hundreds, thousands of reforms since the crisis began. It's what they spend their days (and frequently nights) in Parliament doing. Despite the fact that review after review has been completed and signed off. It's a pre-requisite to getting the next tranche of funds. Or not getting them, since it all bypasses Greece completely and goes directly to the creditors.

And despite the fact that they were promised debt relief talks long, long ago if they met certain conditions, which they have done, those talks have still not taken place and nor do they look likely to any time soon.

But you know all this because it's all scattered through the preceding pages of this thread.

Originally Posted by Garbatellamike View Post
I repeat myself
You do indeed
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Old Jan 31st 2017, 9:11 am
  #1109  
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Default Re: Road to a Grecian turn?

Originally Posted by Red Eric View Post
Yesterday :


Absolutely no mention of anybody else other than Greece needing to undertake actions. Despite the fact that Greece has been implementing reform after reform after reform, hundreds, thousands of reforms since the crisis began. It's what they spend their days (and frequently nights) in Parliament doing. Despite the fact that review after review has been completed and signed off. It's a pre-requisite to getting the next tranche of funds. Or not getting them, since it all bypasses Greece completely and goes directly to the creditors.

And despite the fact that they were promised debt relief talks long, long ago if they met certain conditions, which they have done, those talks have still not taken place and nor do they look likely to any time soon.

But you know all this because it's all scattered through the preceding pages of this thread.



You do indeed
Eric - you are wrong on this but not totally; they have actually met 1/3 of the conditions, another 1/3 are due this week and they are promising the last 1/3 in time for the upcoming bailout review. Hopefully they will deliver on their promises and get the relief albeit some of the things they have been asked to do are politically toxic domestically speaking hence their difficulty in meeting all the conditions they have agreed to. It is not easy for the current Greek administration for sure.

A favour if you'd be so kind? Please read my post carefully as the constant need to repeat things to you is a chore for me and boring for everyone else and is easily solved by a little more attention to detail from you.
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Old Jan 31st 2017, 10:10 am
  #1110  
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