Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Nov 30th 2012, 6:56 pm
#1
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Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Seeing as the thread was closed before I got to respond:
The point I was making is there is no such thing as an EU citizen from the context of how CBP looks at it. There is no provision in US immigration law that recognizes anything under the Maastricht Treaty or the Schengen Agreement and even the Maastricht Treaty goes on about the territorial extent of the EU, and various member states have territory that extends beyond the EU.
So if the OP is a citizen of say, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Poland or Romania and moved to the UK, then CBP will likely look at him as a migrant worker, not an "EU citizen". They're required to do this under the provisions of 8 CFR 217 as the VWP doesn't include those EU states. I'm assuming he isn't because he entered under the VWP but still, CBP will look at him as a citizen of X who lives in the UK, not a citizen of the EU.
I see this come up on forums quite often and that's why I'm making this point.
The US has treaty agreements with various British Overseas Territories as well as St Pierre and Miquelon (which means they're treated differently) and a French citizen who lives there or a British citizen who lives on a BOT or even the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is not an "EU citizen" however you look at it as they're outside the territorial extent of the EU.
You cannot for example live in New Caledonia or French Polynesia if you're British by virtue of anything to do with the EU. Although they are part of France the Schengen Agreement doesn't extend there either.
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
I think the point behind the post from Marocco was to negate the comment regarding there is no such thing as an EU Citizen.
So if the OP is a citizen of say, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Poland or Romania and moved to the UK, then CBP will likely look at him as a migrant worker, not an "EU citizen". They're required to do this under the provisions of 8 CFR 217 as the VWP doesn't include those EU states. I'm assuming he isn't because he entered under the VWP but still, CBP will look at him as a citizen of X who lives in the UK, not a citizen of the EU.
I see this come up on forums quite often and that's why I'm making this point.
The US has treaty agreements with various British Overseas Territories as well as St Pierre and Miquelon (which means they're treated differently) and a French citizen who lives there or a British citizen who lives on a BOT or even the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is not an "EU citizen" however you look at it as they're outside the territorial extent of the EU.
You cannot for example live in New Caledonia or French Polynesia if you're British by virtue of anything to do with the EU. Although they are part of France the Schengen Agreement doesn't extend there either.
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
Nov 30th 2012, 7:31 pm
#2
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
I changed the thread title to accurately describe the topic. I don't want it to get back to that other thread's main topic, this one can just continue the discussion of "EU Citizen".
Rene
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Rene
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Nov 30th 2012, 8:06 pm
#3
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Seeing as the thread was closed before I got to respond:
The point I was making is there is no such thing as an EU citizen from the context of how CBP looks at it. There is no provision in US immigration law that recognizes anything under the Maastricht Treaty or the Schengen Agreement and even the Maastricht Treaty goes on about the territorial extent of the EU, and various member states have territory that extends beyond the EU.
So if the OP is a citizen of say, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Poland or Romania and moved to the UK, then CBP will likely look at him as a migrant worker, not an "EU citizen". They're required to do this under the provisions of 8 CFR 217 as the VWP doesn't include those EU states. I'm assuming he isn't because he entered under the VWP but still, CBP will look at him as a citizen of X who lives in the UK, not a citizen of the EU.
I see this come up on forums quite often and that's why I'm making this point.
The US has treaty agreements with various British Overseas Territories as well as St Pierre and Miquelon (which means they're treated differently) and a French citizen who lives there or a British citizen who lives on a BOT or even the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is not an "EU citizen" however you look at it as they're outside the territorial extent of the EU.
You cannot for example live in New Caledonia or French Polynesia if you're British by virtue of anything to do with the EU. Although they are part of France the Schengen Agreement doesn't extend there either.
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
The point I was making is there is no such thing as an EU citizen from the context of how CBP looks at it. There is no provision in US immigration law that recognizes anything under the Maastricht Treaty or the Schengen Agreement and even the Maastricht Treaty goes on about the territorial extent of the EU, and various member states have territory that extends beyond the EU.
So if the OP is a citizen of say, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Poland or Romania and moved to the UK, then CBP will likely look at him as a migrant worker, not an "EU citizen". They're required to do this under the provisions of 8 CFR 217 as the VWP doesn't include those EU states. I'm assuming he isn't because he entered under the VWP but still, CBP will look at him as a citizen of X who lives in the UK, not a citizen of the EU.
I see this come up on forums quite often and that's why I'm making this point.
The US has treaty agreements with various British Overseas Territories as well as St Pierre and Miquelon (which means they're treated differently) and a French citizen who lives there or a British citizen who lives on a BOT or even the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is not an "EU citizen" however you look at it as they're outside the territorial extent of the EU.
You cannot for example live in New Caledonia or French Polynesia if you're British by virtue of anything to do with the EU. Although they are part of France the Schengen Agreement doesn't extend there either.
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
Nov 30th 2012, 8:36 pm
#4
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The OP in the thread in question was correct to describe himself as an EU citizen. I accept it wasn't relevant to his story of US immigration trouble. But then he wasn't trying to make that claim anyway, so your rebuttal of his statement frankly seems quite disingenuous.
Nov 30th 2012, 9:40 pm
#5
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Certainly you didn't, although who knows what the OP thought - and the content above is interesting enough in its own right anyway. (I think the original point had something to do with it being odd for him to be so specific about where he was living but so vague about his passport.)
Dec 1st 2012, 10:49 am
#6
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The US has treaty agreements with various British Overseas Territories as well as St Pierre and Miquelon (which means they're treated differently) and a French citizen who lives there or a British citizen who lives on a BOT or even the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man is not an "EU citizen" however you look at it as they're outside the territorial extent of the EU.
Dec 3rd 2012, 12:44 am
#8
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The point I was making is there is no such thing as an EU citizen from the context of how CBP looks at it. There is no provision in US immigration law that recognizes anything under the Maastricht Treaty or the Schengen Agreement and even the Maastricht Treaty goes on about the territorial extent of the EU, and various member states have territory that extends beyond the EU.
...
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
...
The EU might think there is EU citizenship but pretty much nobody else does is the point I'm making. Not in any meaningful way anyway.
Until the State Department gives diplomatic recognition to the "European Union" as a country, as distinct from its member states. This would mean only one accredited EU embassy in Washington DC, and in reverse, only one U.S. Embassy on EU territory (in Brussels, or Berlin).
Until then, EU states maintain their legal sovereignty, even if they find themselves under a form of de-facto foreign rule.
Dec 3rd 2012, 2:56 am
#9
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Don't you think you're coming on a bit strong there? According to your definition, membership of the United Nations could also be seen as a form of de-facto foreign rule: if you want to be a member, you have to integrate its rules into your system of law.
Dec 6th 2012, 3:20 pm
#10
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
In general, citizenship doesn't depend on where you happen to be living (the only exception I know of being the Vatican City State).
Dec 7th 2012, 3:19 am
#11
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The United Nations does not have the power to interfere directly in the internal affairs of member states. Most international treaties are merely commitments by countries to act in a particular way and do not give rise to the kind of parallel legal system enforced upon member states by the EU.
Dec 7th 2012, 1:18 pm
#12
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The United Nations does not have the power to interfere directly in the internal affairs of member states. Most international treaties are merely commitments by countries to act in a particular way and do not give rise to the kind of parallel legal system enforced upon member states by the EU.
You're possibly thinking of the European Court of Human Rights, ruling that prisoners should get the vote? The ECHR is part of the Council Of Europe, which has nothing whatsoever to do with the European Union. Britain was a founding member and its main architect.
Strangely enough, the British media never make the distinction. According to the Leveson enquiry, there is 'clear evidence of misreporting on European issues'. This happens across the whole spectrum, tabloids and serious titles alike.
Tongue firmly in cheek, anyone relying on the British press for information on European issues may as well rely on the Iranian press for Israeli issues. Except that in Britain the government is presumably not complicit in the deliberate spouting of misinformation.
Oh and regarding the United Nations. Some of its resolutions authorise military force, which allows its member states to legally invade another. Would you not call this direct interference in the internal affairs of member states?
Dec 7th 2012, 2:56 pm
#13
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Ian
Last edited by ian-mstm; Dec 7th 2012 at 3:01 pm.
Dec 7th 2012, 11:34 pm
#14
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
Good point ! But let's turn the whole thing on its head. *Not* having a resolution in place forbids one country from invading another. So the United Nations still interferes in its members' internal affairs - members are no longer sovereign in who and when to invade.
Dec 8th 2012, 9:31 am
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Re: Is there such a thing as EU Citizen?
The bottom line is that the UN, much like Star Fleet, has a non-interference directive. Now, does that get tossed out the window every now and again when circumstances are extreme? Sure... but then the UN has to make its case to the membership - and the membership have to agree. And while that may look like interference, the country can still act as it sees fit - even if that action brings the disdain of the world.
Ian