My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Old Sep 23rd 2013, 8:54 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

So I have two small kids... 5 and (by the time we do it) 3. Would it be advisable for me to do the move to Ireland and get the entry clearance for my wife (US passport) then shortly afterwards take a short trip to the UK and deposit the kids with my Mother (Nanny) and leave them there while I get a holdover job and live rough for a few months? I would assume we can go visit pretty often? Is that a sensible plan or would that cause any issues with authorities? (Kids have UK and US passports.) Thanks!
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Old Sep 24th 2013, 8:15 am
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by MrMuffin View Post
So I have two small kids... 5 and (by the time we do it) 3. Would it be advisable for me to do the move to Ireland and get the entry clearance for my wife (US passport) then shortly afterwards take a short trip to the UK and deposit the kids with my Mother (Nanny) and leave them there while I get a holdover job and live rough for a few months? I would assume we can go visit pretty often? Is that a sensible plan or would that cause any issues with authorities? (Kids have UK and US passports.) Thanks!
As a US citizen, your wife doesn't need a visa for Ireland. You and your wife will need to live in Ireland together for at least 3 months with you working at least 10 - 12 hours per week. It is also worth knowing that when you send in your application for your residency card, you have to send in both your passports which will be held for 4 - 5 weeks.
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Old Sep 24th 2013, 1:01 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by AngelaV View Post
As a US citizen, your wife doesn't need a visa for Ireland. You and your wife will need to live in Ireland together for at least 3 months with you working at least 10 - 12 hours per week. It is also worth knowing that when you send in your application for your residency card, you have to send in both your passports which will be held for 4 - 5 weeks.
OK that's great, thanks. I guess I am trying to see if there is a way that we could leave the kids for the summer with their Grandparents in the UK (either we take them over to the UK via Ferry or Plane) while we stay in Ireland for the min 3 month period and work etc.? I am thinking that way we could get a smaller and less expensive place and 'rough it' while we're there. Or is it best to have the kids with us in Ireland for purposes of the application?
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 8:30 am
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by MrMuffin View Post
OK that's great, thanks. I guess I am trying to see if there is a way that we could leave the kids for the summer with their Grandparents in the UK (either we take them over to the UK via Ferry or Plane) while we stay in Ireland for the min 3 month period and work etc.? I am thinking that way we could get a smaller and less expensive place and 'rough it' while we're there. Or is it best to have the kids with us in Ireland for purposes of the application?
Not having the kids might be seen as an excuse to claim that you weren't really exercising your rights and it was just transient. Not sure what, if any, of the paperwork you would provide for the family permit application would show whether or not the kids were with you though
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 11:31 am
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

I agree with englishguygoinghome. Where there isn't anywhere that you have to state the kids are with you, if the UKBA were to find out that they were in the UK whilst you were in Ireland, they could determine that you were transient and "not genuine and effective" or "suggesting the possible intention to abuse the rights conferred by the Directive for the sole purpose of contravening national immigration laws", both are grounds for refusal on the grounds of abuse.

I definitely err more on the side of caution when it comes to the ss route. It is a risk whichever way you look at it but our personal approach to it is to reduce the risk factor by genuinely living in Ireland as I would if I were living anywhere.

However, this is my view on it. Not everyone will agree with me. I just know that I have invested far too much in this to be turned away at the end for any kind of infraction if I can help it.
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 11:31 am
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

I agree with englishguygoinghome. Where there isn't anywhere that you have to state the kids are with you, if the UKBA were to find out that they were in the UK whilst you were in Ireland, they could determine that you were transient and "not genuine and effective" or "suggesting the possible intention to abuse the rights conferred by the Directive for the sole purpose of contravening national immigration laws", both are grounds for refusal on the grounds of abuse.

I definitely err more on the side of caution when it comes to the ss route. It is a risk whichever way you look at it but our personal approach to it is to reduce the risk factor by genuinely living in Ireland as I would if I were living anywhere.

However, this is my view on it. Not everyone will agree with me. I just know that I have invested far too much in this to be turned away at the end for any kind of infraction if I can help it.
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 1:06 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by AngelaV View Post
I agree with englishguygoinghome. Where there isn't anywhere that you have to state the kids are with you, if the UKBA were to find out that they were in the UK whilst you were in Ireland, they could determine that you were transient and "not genuine and effective" or "suggesting the possible intention to abuse the rights conferred by the Directive for the sole purpose of contravening national immigration laws", both are grounds for refusal on the grounds of abuse.

I definitely err more on the side of caution when it comes to the ss route. It is a risk whichever way you look at it but our personal approach to it is to reduce the risk factor by genuinely living in Ireland as I would if I were living anywhere.

However, this is my view on it. Not everyone will agree with me. I just know that I have invested far too much in this to be turned away at the end for any kind of infraction if I can help it.
Thanks to both of you. I agree with what you're saying. I'm all for making sure the t's are crossed and i's dotted, and wasn't trying to pull a fast one. I think overall it'll make more sense to have the kids with us for the whole time... we'd miss them terribly anyway. And also the whole point of going the SS route is to keep the family together... if we go straight back to the UK then my wife would have to stay in the US until I found good enough work and that could take six or nine months in reality.

I have talked to family in the UK about us going the SS route via Ireland and they are all worried and concerned that we'll get stuck in limbo somehow. I'm at the beginning of this journey in terms of getting armed with all the info so thanks for your help and apologies for hijacking your thread. Cheers, M
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 2:07 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Oh goodness, I hope I didn't come across as thinking you were trying to pull a fast one, nothing could have been further from my mind. You come across as a caring father wanting to do what is right for your family.

What I was trying to say in my own fumbling way is that the UKBA are full of nonsense and will use any reason to make it as difficult as they can; and if taking the kids to Ireland improves your chance, then it may be worth it. The quotes in my last post are from their website relating to their interpretation of abuse and as to their reasoning behind rejecting applications if they interpret our actions as abuse - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...313:FIN:EN:PDF

The following is a point they have stressed as being effective:

"When necessary, Member States may define a set of indicative criteria to assess whether residence in the host Member State was genuine and effective. National authorities may in particular take into account the following factors:

• degree of effectiveness and genuineness of residence in the host Member State (envisaged and actual residence in the host Member State, efforts made to establish in the host Member State, including national registration formalities and securing accommodation, enrolling children at an educational establishment);"
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Old Sep 25th 2013, 2:15 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by MrMuffin View Post
Thanks to both of you. I agree with what you're saying. I'm all for making sure the t's are crossed and i's dotted, and wasn't trying to pull a fast one. I think overall it'll make more sense to have the kids with us for the whole time... we'd miss them terribly anyway. And also the whole point of going the SS route is to keep the family together... if we go straight back to the UK then my wife would have to stay in the US until I found good enough work and that could take six or nine months in reality.

I have talked to family in the UK about us going the SS route via Ireland and they are all worried and concerned that we'll get stuck in limbo somehow. I'm at the beginning of this journey in terms of getting armed with all the info so thanks for your help and apologies for hijacking your thread. Cheers, M
Personally I'd go via the EU somewhere - btu that's as much based on my personal migration history anbd political ideology as anything else.
As for practicalities, if the Irish route doesn't work and the kids could live with the grandparents then the following conditions may end up applying to your wife:
E-ECPT.2.1. The applicant must be aged 18 years or over.

E-ECPT.2.2. The child of the applicant must be-

(a) under the age of 18 years at the date of application;
(b) living in the UK; and
(c) a British Citizen or settled in the UK.

E-ECPT.2.3. Either -

(a) the applicant must have sole parental responsibility for the child; or
(b) the parent or carer with whom the child normally lives must be-

(i) a British Citizen in the UK or settled in the UK;
(ii) not the partner of the applicant; and
(iii) the applicant must not be eligible to apply for entry clearance as a partner under this Appendix.

E-ECPT.2.4. (a) The applicant must provide evidence that they have either-

(i) sole parental responsibility for the child; or
(ii) access rights to the child; and

(b) The applicant must provide evidence that they are taking, and intend to continue to take, an active role in the child's upbringing.
The big quesiton would be the level of formality related to defining the "carer with whom the child normally lives". This route has no stringent financial requirement see http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/po...e-as-a-parent/
but I'd still rather be with my kids in Ireland than run the risk that the UKBA simply state that they don't accept the grandparents are the current carers. If Singh fell over as a possibility this would probably be my last throw of the dice
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 2:17 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by AngelaV View Post
H, you will have to work for 12 hours per weeks for a minimum of 3 months. I said 10 weeks in an earlier post as some people have gone to the UK after 10 weeks but a couple were refused a family permit yesterday as seemingly her job seemed transient so I would possibly err on the side of caution and say a minimum of 3 months or more.

I don't know about Ceuto/Meliliya, just make sure they are part of Europe and the European Union otherwise it won't count.
Hi AngelaV. Can you tell me what happens to people in the above (bolded) situation... if they go SS and then are refused a family permit? What options do they have next? Thanks. M
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 2:37 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Originally Posted by MrMuffin View Post
Hi AngelaV. Can you tell me what happens to people in the above (bolded) situation... if they go SS and then are refused a family permit? What options do they have next? Thanks. M
If you're refused an EEA Family Permit, just work another month then re-apply.

Hopefully you'd get a better ECO?
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 3:19 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

The couple in question reapplied a month later and got their family permit.
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 3:32 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

OK DaveLovesDee and AngelaV... great to know. I (and my USC wife) was thinking that it was a one time thing and that there was a chance that we'd be stuck in limbo and would be forced to go back to the USA with our tails between our legs
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 3:44 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

So AngelaV... how are you doing? Any updates on your own progress? You're so wonderful logging everything you do and also taking the time to help so many others that I want to make sure your own plight isn't forgotten about!
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Old Sep 30th 2013, 4:19 pm
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Default Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far

Haha ... We are doing well. We reached the 3 month, 1 day mark yesterday (the earliest point where we can move back to the UK) and should get our stamp 4 next week so it's all happening.

One glitch though ....... we've fallen in love with Ireland!

We're setting up our business which should be going live this week so fingers crossed. Our savings have now depleted so need to start bringing in an income

It's actually very easy to set up a business in Ireland and the banks are very supportive.
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