My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Jan 29th 2014, 2:43 pm
#196
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
He argued that he should be allowed to remain in the UK under EU rules as his ex wife had exercised her EU rights in Germany for 2 years and he lived with her as her dependant.
From what I can gather, if a non-EU remains married for 2 years to a EU citizen, then they retain their right of EU residence inthe EU country they are residing in.
However, the rules on non-EUs being able to stay in an EU country when they are divorced, seem to have changed now. i.e. Some try to drag out their divorce to 2 years so they can keep EU residency rights, but now their EU partner must be exercsing their EU rights in that country when the divorce is finalised. All the EU has to do is stop exercising their EU rights while the divorce is finalised and the non-EU can't stay. i.e. something as simple as the EU citizen leaving that EU country and going home for a while or another EU country, while the divorce is finalised.
Last edited by formula; Jan 29th 2014 at 2:50 pm.
Jan 29th 2014, 2:51 pm
#198
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Joined: Mar 2011
Location: East Anglia->New England
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Yes, they are nothing to do with free worker movement. Denmark brought in new rules years ago, to block their citizens who might try to exploit the Singh loophole to avoid Danish immigration laws. The recent rules the UK have adopted, are a lighter version of those (much harsher) Danish rules.
EU laws change all the time. Even the existing rules are open to interpretation. They also allow EEA countries to tighten rules to their country for the EEA migrants.
EU laws change all the time. Even the existing rules are open to interpretation. They also allow EEA countries to tighten rules to their country for the EEA migrants.
That's what this thread is all about.
Jan 29th 2014, 2:59 pm
#199
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Mr and Mrs Singh worked in Germany for 2 years and had their life based in Germany.
People can still have their "legal path of entry to EU nations" under whatever rules are in place at the time.
It's not the first loophole that has been closed and I doubt it will be the last. There have been changes for EU citizens trying to get PR in other EU countries too. Many getting caught out during their 5 year wait to PR, when those loopholes are closed too.
People can still have their "legal path of entry to EU nations" under whatever rules are in place at the time.
It's not the first loophole that has been closed and I doubt it will be the last. There have been changes for EU citizens trying to get PR in other EU countries too. Many getting caught out during their 5 year wait to PR, when those loopholes are closed too.
Please share your extensive knowledge of EEA Free Movement rules changes around the EU. That could indeed be helpful.
Not sure these vague statements are helpful in themselves. If you can back them up, fine. Otherwise one might suspect you're just trying to make people who are looking at the Singh Route nervous enough to give up the idea.
Last edited by WEBlue; Jan 29th 2014 at 3:01 pm.
Jan 29th 2014, 3:20 pm
#200
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Posts: 2,294
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
As I have always said, the EU route is not the safest route to bring loved ones to the UK as EU rules change and often change retropectively. It's hardly a surprise that another EU route has just changed. Until they get citizenship, it will always be a case of looking at the EU situation and worrying for years.
On the UK route, once they have their fiance or spouse visa, they are safe and any future UK immigration changes will not affect them.
Although (as I have also said before) I can understand why those naturalised Brits use the EU route to try to get elderly parents to the UK.
Jan 29th 2014, 3:29 pm
#201
WhiteRabbit
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,480
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
I thought old people were just a drain on the NHS.
Jan 29th 2014, 3:48 pm
#202
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
"an ambiguity or inadequacy in the law or a set of rules."
I think those using Singh will also have to look at about other likely changes too, within the UK for EU and home changes, plus future EU changes.
Last edited by formula; Jan 29th 2014 at 3:51 pm.
Jan 29th 2014, 3:52 pm
#203
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
And this is the judgement that allows it:
21 It follows that a national of a Member State who has gone to another Member State in order to work there as an employed person pursuant to Article 48 of the Treaty and returns to establish himself in order to pursue an activity as an employed person in the territory of the Member State of which he is a national has the right, under Article 52 of the Treaty, to be accompanied in the territory of the latter State by his spouse, a national of a non-member country, under the same conditions as are laid down by Regulation No 1612/68, Directive 68/360 or Directive 73/148, cited above.
Not sure what this has to do with anything on this thread?
Jan 29th 2014, 4:09 pm
#204
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Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/...0J0370:EN:HTML
It was on that link to a site you recently posted when you were advising someone on the catch 22 of using time on a student visa for ILR v citizenship. I didn't agree with what your said, so checked your link and then read some more of that site. I then checked what they said by using google and found it on immigrationboards too. As you put the link to that site, I assumed you were reading their singh threads too; especailly as you post a lot on singh.
You and I both read a lot about Singh, Formula. I think we're both very interested in the principle. I just wish you'd back up your statements with proof. That would be helpful to everyone here on this board.
Originally Posted by formula;11102765Not extensive, but those changes I read about are refusals of PR and [B
don't affect Brits using Singh or the Brit non-EU spouse.[/B]
It IS a bad idea. I wouldn't recommend that route to my worst enemy. The EU rules change. Just look at what has happened here to the Singh route. I have been saying to use the UKBA route for the safe route. On the UK route, your spouse is safe when they get their visa; you only have to meet the income requirments for a set time and then the income of the spouse counts too; your spouse gets free at point of entry medical care too (not always free in other EU countries).
I think those using Singh will also have to look at about other likely changes too, within the UK for EU and home changes, plus future EU changes.
I think those using Singh will also have to look at about other likely changes too, within the UK for EU and home changes, plus future EU changes.
But for now it is also the ONLY way many (not all, but many) UK citizens can find to bring their non-EEA spouses to the UK to live as a real family should be able to live. Until that changes, you're fighting an uphill battle if you want to persuade British citizens not to use it.
Last edited by WEBlue; Jan 29th 2014 at 4:13 pm.
Jan 29th 2014, 4:45 pm
#205
WhiteRabbit
Joined: Dec 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 1,480
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
I don't think Singh is inherently "unsafe".
No immigrant procedure is 100 percent bullet proof. If nothing else, you never know if the person looking at your paperwork might be having an off day.
The key to any immigrant path is reading, learning and getting advice if necessary. As long as you don't break the law - you are likely to find success.
There are often legal immigration paths that people disagree with. That doesn't make them any less legal though. I'll give you an example. Under US immigration law, if you are a non-visa national to the US, as long as you have entered the country legally, you can file for residency via your marriage to a US citizen, from within the country. A lot of people don't like this, especially non-visa nationals and their spouses. They cry "loophole" and moan about having to attend consular interviews and long separations, proving that their love is "more tested" than the people who "cheated". They feel visa nationals have a leg up on the process because they are able to just enter on a tourist visa, marry and stay. But - it's perfectly legal. And, forum discussions about this are just as full of boogey-man scare tactics as we've seen in formula's post. The non-visa nationals like to tell the visa nationals that what they have done is risky, and their adjustment to residency will be denied. But - it won't.
It kind of reminds me of someone yelling at kids not to run with scissors. Or your mother telling you that if you keep crossing your eyes, they are going to get stuck like that for life.
No immigrant procedure is 100 percent bullet proof. If nothing else, you never know if the person looking at your paperwork might be having an off day.
The key to any immigrant path is reading, learning and getting advice if necessary. As long as you don't break the law - you are likely to find success.
There are often legal immigration paths that people disagree with. That doesn't make them any less legal though. I'll give you an example. Under US immigration law, if you are a non-visa national to the US, as long as you have entered the country legally, you can file for residency via your marriage to a US citizen, from within the country. A lot of people don't like this, especially non-visa nationals and their spouses. They cry "loophole" and moan about having to attend consular interviews and long separations, proving that their love is "more tested" than the people who "cheated". They feel visa nationals have a leg up on the process because they are able to just enter on a tourist visa, marry and stay. But - it's perfectly legal. And, forum discussions about this are just as full of boogey-man scare tactics as we've seen in formula's post. The non-visa nationals like to tell the visa nationals that what they have done is risky, and their adjustment to residency will be denied. But - it won't.
It kind of reminds me of someone yelling at kids not to run with scissors. Or your mother telling you that if you keep crossing your eyes, they are going to get stuck like that for life.
Last edited by rebeccajo; Jan 29th 2014 at 4:55 pm.
Jan 29th 2014, 7:20 pm
#206
Account Closed
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 26,319
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Reunification? You don't get to chose the country your family can all just move to. Even the Human Rights Act doesn't allow that.
Understood, but if the UK spouse has lots of family here, and the non-EEA spouse doesn't have many family in their country, surely it's a bit much to expect the UK national to have to move to their partner's country for good.
As I have always said, the EU route is not the safest route to bring loved ones to the UK as EU rules change and often change retropectively. It's hardly a surprise that another EU route has just changed. Until they get citizenship, it will always be a case of looking at the EU situation and worrying for years.
When was the last rule changed retrospectively? Wouldn't that be wrong?
It would take a considerable time to change an EU law, and given the Conservative Party's stance on the EU I feel that the only likely change would be if the proposed referendum votes Yes to withdrawing from the EU.
EU law regularly works in our favour, despite what some of the media say.
On the UK route, once they have their fiance or spouse visa, they are safe and any future UK immigration changes will not affect them.
Safe! What happens if the wife/fiancee gets pregnant. They can face a choice of having the child or keeping the wife's income coming in to meet the income requirement.
Just getting the Spouse visa can be a struggle. I live in South Wales, and I'm currently earning £15,800 a year working 2 jobs. Both require me ensuring the safety of others, and should I take a 3rd job to try and reach the £18,600 a year requirement, I cannot guarantee that I will be sufficiently rested to do either or both of the other jobs to the satisfaction of my current employers. I can easily live here with my wife on £13,160 a year (40hrs pw at NMW) without needing to access housing benefits or anything else. Why would I need another £5,440 above that?
Although (as I have also said before) I can understand why those naturalised Brits use the EU route to try to get elderly parents to the UK.
Understood, but if the UK spouse has lots of family here, and the non-EEA spouse doesn't have many family in their country, surely it's a bit much to expect the UK national to have to move to their partner's country for good.
As I have always said, the EU route is not the safest route to bring loved ones to the UK as EU rules change and often change retropectively. It's hardly a surprise that another EU route has just changed. Until they get citizenship, it will always be a case of looking at the EU situation and worrying for years.
When was the last rule changed retrospectively? Wouldn't that be wrong?
It would take a considerable time to change an EU law, and given the Conservative Party's stance on the EU I feel that the only likely change would be if the proposed referendum votes Yes to withdrawing from the EU.
EU law regularly works in our favour, despite what some of the media say.
On the UK route, once they have their fiance or spouse visa, they are safe and any future UK immigration changes will not affect them.
Safe! What happens if the wife/fiancee gets pregnant. They can face a choice of having the child or keeping the wife's income coming in to meet the income requirement.
Just getting the Spouse visa can be a struggle. I live in South Wales, and I'm currently earning £15,800 a year working 2 jobs. Both require me ensuring the safety of others, and should I take a 3rd job to try and reach the £18,600 a year requirement, I cannot guarantee that I will be sufficiently rested to do either or both of the other jobs to the satisfaction of my current employers. I can easily live here with my wife on £13,160 a year (40hrs pw at NMW) without needing to access housing benefits or anything else. Why would I need another £5,440 above that?
Although (as I have also said before) I can understand why those naturalised Brits use the EU route to try to get elderly parents to the UK.
I don't think Singh is inherently "unsafe".
Agreed. EU law outweighs UK law.
No immigrant procedure is 100 percent bullet proof. If nothing else, you never know if the person looking at your paperwork might be having an off day.
It appears that many more Spouse visa applications are being denied by the Home Office using 'sham marriage' as the reason, despite no evidence from the Home Office that these are a sham. I personally know of a couple of these couples.
The key to any immigrant path is reading, learning and getting advice if necessary. As long as you don't break the law - you are likely to find success.
Whether applying for a Fiance/Spouse visa, or exercising Free Movement to another EU country, both partners need to read everything and talk with each other. Plan everything in detail, who needs to do what and when, if exercising Free Movement start contacting potential employers ASAP and aim to have employment as quickly as possible when you get there.
Remember the 6 P's. Prior Planning and Preparation Prevent Poor Performance.
There are often legal immigration paths that people disagree with. That doesn't make them any less legal though. I'll give you an example. Under US immigration law, if you are a non-visa national to the US, as long as you have entered the country legally, you can file for residency via your marriage to a US citizen, from within the country. A lot of people don't like this, especially non-visa nationals and their spouses. They cry "loophole" and moan about having to attend consular interviews and long separations, proving that their love is "more tested" than the people who "cheated". They feel visa nationals have a leg up on the process because they are able to just enter on a tourist visa, marry and stay. But - it's perfectly legal. And, forum discussions about this are just as full of boogey-man scare tactics as we've seen in formula's post. The non-visa nationals like to tell the visa nationals that what they have done is risky, and their adjustment to residency will be denied. But - it won't.
It kind of reminds me of someone yelling at kids not to run with scissors. Or your mother telling you that if you keep crossing your eyes, they are going to get stuck like that for life.
Agreed. EU law outweighs UK law.
No immigrant procedure is 100 percent bullet proof. If nothing else, you never know if the person looking at your paperwork might be having an off day.
It appears that many more Spouse visa applications are being denied by the Home Office using 'sham marriage' as the reason, despite no evidence from the Home Office that these are a sham. I personally know of a couple of these couples.
The key to any immigrant path is reading, learning and getting advice if necessary. As long as you don't break the law - you are likely to find success.
Whether applying for a Fiance/Spouse visa, or exercising Free Movement to another EU country, both partners need to read everything and talk with each other. Plan everything in detail, who needs to do what and when, if exercising Free Movement start contacting potential employers ASAP and aim to have employment as quickly as possible when you get there.
Remember the 6 P's. Prior Planning and Preparation Prevent Poor Performance.
There are often legal immigration paths that people disagree with. That doesn't make them any less legal though. I'll give you an example. Under US immigration law, if you are a non-visa national to the US, as long as you have entered the country legally, you can file for residency via your marriage to a US citizen, from within the country. A lot of people don't like this, especially non-visa nationals and their spouses. They cry "loophole" and moan about having to attend consular interviews and long separations, proving that their love is "more tested" than the people who "cheated". They feel visa nationals have a leg up on the process because they are able to just enter on a tourist visa, marry and stay. But - it's perfectly legal. And, forum discussions about this are just as full of boogey-man scare tactics as we've seen in formula's post. The non-visa nationals like to tell the visa nationals that what they have done is risky, and their adjustment to residency will be denied. But - it won't.
It kind of reminds me of someone yelling at kids not to run with scissors. Or your mother telling you that if you keep crossing your eyes, they are going to get stuck like that for life.
Last edited by DaveLovesDee; Jan 29th 2014 at 7:22 pm.
Jan 30th 2014, 1:51 pm
#207
Under blue skies
Joined: Mar 2011
Location: East Anglia->New England
Posts: 3,624
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Yes, they are nothing to do with free worker movement. Denmark brought in new rules years ago, to block their citizens who might try to exploit the Singh loophole to avoid Danish immigration laws. The recent rules the UK have adopted, are a lighter version of those (much harsher) Danish rules.
http://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/comin...der_eu-law.htm
BTW, it's written in clearer English than 90% of the UKBA guidelines, IMO. And Section 2, on "Genuine and Effective Residence" in the chosen EU country, does provide some possibly-valuable tips for Singh Route followers.
If--as you say--more and more EU nations are going to tighten up their Singh rules along the Danish model, then it might behoove Singh followers to have a good read through this link.
Feb 3rd 2014, 1:12 pm
#208
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 837
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
Until the Immigration Bill is passed. At which point any of the subsequent applications can be denied, completely erroneously or for made-up reasons and there will be no right of appeal based on the argument "they got it wrong". In fact you could be in possession of ILR and receive a deportation order and still have no right of appeal, even though they clearly got it wrong. (Don't think it won't happen - there have been mistakes in the past of such letters going to citizens and/or people who left years ago).
Feb 7th 2014, 4:44 pm
#209
Just Joined
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 3
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
AngelaV, thanks for this thread. We too are attempting this route. I have a british passport and my two kids so we o.k but my wife is on south african. We have been in ireland just over a month now and trying to research and find support for our next steps. Always helful having someone to chat to as we as a family are pretty much alone. I tired to have a look at that facebook group you mentioned but its not allowing me to. Please could you share any advise you may have with us. We will be putting in for my wifes irish resedency soon then hopefully can go on to get the family permit although I have heard the rules have again changed since jan. Would you or anyone know about this. Thanks so much.
Feb 7th 2014, 5:51 pm
#210
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,294
Re: My experience of going the Surinder Singh route so far
But I did post my sources when you asked, I told you that I got it from a link that YOU posted to this site. I was surprised that you missed it and hadn't read the Singh stuff on your link, as you are so keen on posting on here about singh.
Last edited by formula; Feb 7th 2014 at 5:56 pm.