sallysimmons

Totally agree - but there are tons of ways that the UK is better for someone with your views. Just not hearing constant arguments about settled issues like gay rights and abortion every time an election comes round is worth the price of admission as is not hearing religion pushed into every policy debate.

The other night I watched 'Have I Got News for You' and they were joking about the US election. Paraphrasing, somebody said 'Obama is slightly to the right of David Cameron. America has a right-wing party, an extreme right-wing party and then there's the tea party who are off the charts.' It's very true - at least on social issues.

As for the Daily Mail - I'd argue that they're not as problematic as Fox News is in the US. They drive some political debate (but that's partly because we have a Tory government just now) but their focus has always been 'England is going to the dogs' rather than a concerted political agenda that has swayed a huge hunk of the public and drives enormous amounts of media coverage.

I think when you get back here you'll find that things are nowhere near as bleak as they seem when you just read about them from over there. Then again, that may be more about personality. I tend to be an upbeat person in general whereas I know people who always seem to find the negative no matter where they go.

chris955

This post is just so true, as we have already said that the real UK does not seem to bear much resemblance to the UK some would, it seems, like to believe exists.
I am very confused about the fact that a perceived lack of free speech here in the UK is a real worry...why ?
I really do think we are living in a parallel UK to the one that some see in their head and what is also clear is that perhaps some are looking for reasons NOT to return to the UK and those reasons can be real or not so real.
Speaking as someone who lives here I see no reason for concern to be quite honest.

dunroving

I never, ever read the Daily Mail. That solves a lot of problems.

(I do peek at it now and then, in the same way I'll watch 5 minutes of the Jeremy Kyle Show if I come across it now and then, just to confirm why I don't bother taking either of them seriously).

Bud the Wiser

I understood Nun's point as being about "Daily Mail attitudes to immigration". Not about the Daily Mail per se. I took this to mean that he was worried about the growing xenophobia that is becoming more widespread in the UK and Europe. Apologises if I got it wrong.

dunroving

Yes, I think you are correct. I was just making a different point.

I sometimes wonder the extent to which media represents reality (yes, I know, duh, but bear with me).

There is the question of whether the Daily Mail represents reality in its stories. There is then the extent to which various media represent the reality of whether Daily Mail readers really believe what they read (i.e., maybe many people read it as entertainment rather than as a credible news source).

Do people who read the Sun walk around topless? Or do they expect women to walk around topless? That is an example (albeit an extreme one) of equating news content with the attitudes of readers.

I read the Sunday Times, but disagree strongly with a lot of the content and am irritated by an implied assumption that its readers are well-off or interested in hearing about the lives of the well-off (which I am not).

Then there is reality - how people truly feel about immigration and other issues that are discussed in the media.

Ethelred_the_Unready

Likewise. I've lived in both countries for a considerable enough time to form an understanding of what goes on aside from the Daily Fail & Faux News perspective. I feel no more or less "free" in either country. I don't get many of the negative perceptions of the UK and in stating the reasons why I do not wish to stay in the US, I have tried to say that it's just a bad fit, rather than the US is a giant craphole.

Shard

The trouble comes from the general public extrapolating from a handful of cases in the DM that a problem is widespread. The "refugees in luxury Kensington mansions" theme is typical. There are isolated cases like that which are (and which make the blood boil) but they are very few compared to the whole. In the above example, what would it be 1 in 1000? 1 in 10000? This is why I think the DM sensationalises, it doesn't dare put the problem into perspective, and happily lets its readership speculate that inequity is widespread.

nun

My worries about the UK haven't risen to the level where they'd stop me from moving back.

Sometimes I think you need to have a bit of distance to see things. Living in the UK you might not see things in the correct perspective......then again I might not have enough information to draw the right conclusions. But IMHO people who live in a country are often the least equipped to be aware of changes and problems. For the US that's certainly the case.

chris955

You may be right but we were looking at the UK from a distance, about as far away as we could be. We were certainly told in no uncertain terms that the UK was an overcrowded shithole not worth living in only to find it was in fact the opposite.
I see no evidence of this growing xenophobia or the lack of free speech but perhaps they exist in isolated pockets ?

dunroving

Nun: I don't know if you have access to British TV but if you can access some of the political magazine type programs I think you would be heartened at the diversity of opinion that is deemed to be acceptable/aired on television. Andrew Neill has a couple of good programs (most notably This Week).

Also, there are several participatory programs (sometimes with guest participants only, other times with audience participation) on some very contentious issues like abortion, racial and religious intolerance, sexuality, etc., etc. I don't see any signs of censoring of these programs and the diversity of opinion (and acceptance of that diversity by the participants) is heartening.

I realise this is different from your concern about "outlawing" extreme forms of speech, but isn't that also somewhat true in the US? Wouldn't using the "N-word" or inciting racial or religious hatred be a legal offence in the US?

Ethelred_the_Unready

I don't know about legal trouble, but the use of that word would land you in all sorts of other trouble.

I still say this country is no more or less free than the UK, but it is different. You are much more censored here in the corporate environment, so you have to be very careful. The kind of banter that flew around in both large and small British firms would not fly here. Also, anyone who leans to the right will jump on any discussion remotely pertaining to anything of a socialistic nature.

Again, no more or less free...just different.

nun

The only UK TV I get is BBC America and that mostly shows Top Gear and Graham Norton so I'm not going to judge based in that. But I do listen to UK radio a lot ranging from Radio 4 and LBC to Radio 1, Capital and Radio Tees (mostly for the accent) and of course I read the Guardian and the Telegraph online. I occasionally read the Daily Mail, but make sure I take a shower afterwards.

My impression is that the UK is still far more liberal than the US. I remember seeing Nick Griffin on Question Time and being heartened by the audience's response. He could have gone to a lot of places in the US and received a warm welcome. My issue is that I can see changes in the UK that mirror the US. They are small, but they are there. I see the intolerant views of various narrow minded religious and political groups gaining in popularity in the UK and I see the some of the policies of the coalition Government as very worrying.

dunroving

I think you will find that a lot of the "banter" is no longer deemed to be acceptable in the UK. It makes for a very politically sensitive and somewhat cautious work environment. I'm personally not one for cracking near the knuckle jokes and wouldn't condone that sort of "banter", but there's almost a sterility to work interactions these days.

I have a colleague who uses swear words in a way that is more "telling it like it is" than "offensive" and it is quite refreshing that he doesn't dance around topics - but if someone were inclined to "report him" he'd probably get into some trouble.

[I just mean if something is "shite", he says it's "shite", in a non-offensive way, if that makes sense]

dunroving

I hope you take the paper in with you and give it a good scrubbing.

I enjoy Radio 5 - it has some quite lively and energizing debate on topics of the day. Give it a try.

I sometimes find Radio 4 a bit depressing and the constant rude interrupting of guests before they've hardly started to reply is intensely irritating to me.

nun

The thing is that in the US the use of the N-word will only get you into the "court of public opinion". You can say it without fear that the police will be involved. That's not the case in the UK and I think that is the Government being too intrusive and limiting expression. It's obviously vile and stupid expression, but unless it's used to insight others into a crime it should be allowed.