dunroving

I don't think Terry's penalty from the FA had anything to do with freedom of speech. I think they penalised him because he is such a monumental pratt.

Having said that, just lately, accusations of "abuse" and "racist abuse" seem to be bandied about very liberally. There's amost a national obsession that trivialises real cases of abuse.

nun

I'm not Jewish, but I like to think I wouldn't have moved to Germany in 1938. OK so that's an extreme way to argue that even if we don't say nasty, stupid, or racist things we should be concerned when anyone's speech is restricted. I'm not a fan of the Daily Mail, John Terry or Nick Griffin, but I'd protect their right to say what they like to protect my right to do the same.

It's not at the level that would stop me moving back to the UK, but it worries me.

nun

I agree with your sentiments towards John Terry. The FA and Chelsea were right to punish him. The involvement of the police and the court case brought against him are the free speech aspect.

chris955

I'm just a bit confused about why this worries you to be honest ? I have never felt in the least bit worried about my freedom of speech but I dont ever feel the need to say something that could even remotely get me into trouble.

Ethelred_the_Unready

Terry got what he deserved. You just don't go around saying whatever you want. Just like I don't agree that Westboro Baptist Church should have the right to picket funerals. Free speech my arse...words can be dangerous, people need protection against incitement of hatred and persecution by individuals who don't give a rat's arsehole about who they hurt.

Think about this: Charles Manson is in jail even though he didn't physically commit murder. Words...just words. Then there was that Adolf Hitler chap. He didn't coerce the German people by violence? Just words.

nun

Manson is rightly in gaol because he used his words to convince and brainwash others into committing crimes. Insulting someone should not be a crime.

Ethelred_the_Unready

But it was just words though as many who blindly defend completely free speech say. Do you think that picketing a soldiers funeral is acceptable and is just merely "insulting" someone? I disagree.

nun

Manson is rightly in gaol because he used his words to convince and brainwash others into committing crimes. There should not be absolute freedom to say anything in any circumstance, but insulting someone should not be a crime. I believe that a healthy society is one where we can hear and see the idiots who need to insult others and let them make fools of themselves.

nun

It's a highly objectionable thing that they do and the courts have mandated that they stay a certain distance from the funerals to spare the feelings of the mourners. But they should be allowed to be idiots and fools because one persons foolishness is another's belief.

Ethelred_the_Unready

But in the case of Westboro? Their right to picket was upheld by the Supreme Court. Granted, I get it, but I vehemently disagree with the decision. What about the rights of mourning families to bury their dead in peace and with dignity?

Bud the Wiser

You're right to be concerned. Whether your concerns will manifest into something more serious only time will tell.

You only have to look at the 'Golden Dawn' movement in Greece to realise that it's a fragile path that many countries are walking at the moment. To label it as a 'Daily Mail' attitude is to dismiss it as being irrelevant. It's not, there is a genuine growing and real concern that goes beyond the Daily Mail circulation.

I don't condone those 'attitudes', but they are certainly there and to dismiss them as just being Daily Mail sensationalism is a head in the sand approach to tackling the problem.

Shard

No Bud it really is sensationalism. Greece is tragic right now, but that is largely due to decades of gross economic mismanagement, way way beyond what the worst British government could do. Tax evasion was rife in Greece, you cannot say that about Blighty. We do need to control immigration, agreed, but I don't think invoking Greece is valid.

Bud the Wiser

I disagree. It's a festering boil that needs to be lanced, for sure. If its sensationalism, it's been sensationalism for over a decade, probably longer and IT IS growing. Sure, there are differences between Greece and the UK, the rise in popularity in Golden Dawn is primarily down to a drop in living standards in Greece. When living standards drop people, rightly or wrongly, look for a scapegoat, that's not sensationalism, that's reality. Will there be a straw that breaks the( UK )camels back? Probably not, but to put it all down to sensationalism is naive.

nun

I don't take the Daily Mail's stories seriously, but that so many people are willing to believe them is the real worry. It's a tone that I see creeping into main stream opinion and politics in policies like the new UK citizen married to non-EEA spouse immigration policy

Bud the Wiser

Indeed, the Daily Mail is a powerful media, I believe, with the largest circulation and readership within the UK, covering the whole spectrum of social bands. So who do we believe? By virtue of the terminology, a headline is sensationalism. Therefore one has to dig deeper, read a cross section of material, read the articles, read the comments and try and collate an informed opinion.

Yes there is, as you say, "an attitude towards immigrants," however, it is not solely a domain of the Daily Mail and its readership. It is a growing and worrying trend and you're right to express your concerns.