British Expats

British Expats (https://britishexpats.com/forum/)
-   Citizenship/Passports and Spouse/Family Visas (UK) (https://britishexpats.com/forum/citizenship-passports-spouse-family-visas-uk-196/)
-   -   British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982) (https://britishexpats.com/forum/citizenship-passports-spouse-family-visas-uk-196/british-citizenship-discretion-cbr-post-1982-a-942619/)

pinkrose Feb 1st 2022 10:46 pm

British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Hi Everyone,

I received this from a well-known agency that deals with immigration services:


The UK Government entered into a treaty with the United Nations some years ago to enshrine equal rights for women. Included in the Treaty is the right for their children (and potentially, their grandchildren) to acquire her citizenship by descent on the same terms as if such a right had come down the paternal side of the family. While the UK has passed legislation to allow such claims, the Home Office has interpreted this legislation in relation to making claims to British Nationality by descent to be effective only for those born in the first generation. The existing stance of the UK Government therefore did not fully address gender discrimination in relation to citizenship applications.

It was only in 1983 that the issue of gender discrimination in British nationality law was addressed for the first time. However, there remained many areas in the law that were not taken into account, and several further changes have been made in the years since 1983 to remedy these. But the complexities of the old laws, and the legacy of the British colonial empire, meant that instances of unfairness still remain today.

The draft legislation appears to properly address the unfairness of the older law. Accordingly, it should be possible to lodge an application if one can demonstrate that - had it not been for gender discrimination in the old law - an applicant would (or could) have British nationality in the modern day. Based on your family tree, it appears that such an application would be successful. While the theory is complex, this solution broadly requires the following:

- Applicant born in a qualifying country

- Applicant born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987

- Applicant's grandparent born in the UK

PLEASE NOTE: We expect this change to only become law in the latter part of 2021 or early 2022. However, we will be taking on cases now on a strictly first-come, first-serve basis in anticipation of the change in law. This is because we will include a formal assessment of your nationality status and an opinion on the likely success of your application, as well as setting out the documents that the home Office will require.


My husband qualifies on the requirements set above, but said immigration agency wants to charge thousands of Pounds for their services. I'm wondering if this is worth doing on our own (once the law has changed) if it is a fairly simple application? Or will it be a bit more complex? We are in two minds as to whether to join the queue or take the risk and do it on our own.

Any help or advice will be much appreciated!
Thank you!

BritInParis Feb 2nd 2022 1:41 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
The Nationality and Borders Bill in question is currently making its way through the House of Lords so it’s likely to receive Royal Assent in the next few weeks.

https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3023

Personally I would wait and make the application yourself.

pinkrose Feb 2nd 2022 1:52 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
This is great news, thank you so much.

In the meantime my husband can make sure he has all his documents in order. I'm wondering if he would he need his vault birth certificate for this type of application? Or will an unabridged birth certificate suffice?

Thanks again!

pinkrose Feb 2nd 2022 9:14 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Hi BritInParis :wave:

I just checked and my husband has an unabridged birth certificate (South Africa), and his Mother has both a vault and unabridged birth certificate.
Should he apply for his vault birth certificate, just in case?

Thanks again for your help.

BritInParis Feb 2nd 2022 11:11 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
The vault copies would be preferable.

pinkrose Feb 3rd 2022 12:32 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Thank you!

pinkrose Apr 28th 2022 7:33 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Hi BritInParis !

I see the bill has received Royal Assent https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/3023.
I am wondering now what the next steps would be?
I've been told this application could take 9-12 months.

Thank you in advance for your help!

BritInParis Apr 29th 2022 11:25 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
You’re a bit quick off the mark! I would wait until the relevant changes are made and published on legislation.gov.uk then we can confirm whether your husband is indeed now eligible.

pinkrose May 8th 2022 7:06 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Sounds good! Thanks so much BritInParis ! :D

pinkrose Jul 5th 2022 1:27 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
BritInParis Hi! I see the Nationality and Borders Act commencement date was 28 June https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga...ntents/enacted :D

BritInParis Jul 6th 2022 11:49 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
I presume Sable are referring to this section of the BNA 1981:

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1981/61/section/4L

But without knowing their reasoning it’s difficult to say whether your husband has a claim. Which country was he born in and when? South Africa post 1983 but pre 1987?

pinkrose Jul 6th 2022 7:34 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Yes it looks like they are referring to that section of the BNA.

For what it’s worth, Sable did a status trace and it came back as Likely (95-99%) that he has a claim.

My husband was born in South Africa in 1987.


pinkrose Jul 12th 2022 11:41 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
BritInParis I thought I'd share this link:https://assets.publishing.service.go...-ard-06-22.pdf

Would this be the application my husband would need to fill out should he qualify? It gives a better idea of more or less what they'd require.

jmin Jul 16th 2022 12:36 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by pinkrose (Post 13128548)
BritInParis I thought I'd share this link:https://assets.publishing.service.go...-ard-06-22.pdf

Would this be the application my husband would need to fill out should he qualify? It gives a better idea of more or less what they'd require.

When you fill out the application, your husband will need to make a convincing argument about how he was subject to historical legislative unfairness. Otherwise, the examiner may misread the facts and believe that your husband is making an argument about the BNA 1981 changes being unfair in the sense that he 'missed out', in which case the application would be denied. I read the 'case studies' that the Secretary set out and they differentiate between legislative unfairness, an act or omission by a public authority, and feeling that you 'missed out'. The 'missed out' guidance mostly concerns changes in BNA 1981.

To make a convincing argument you will need to clearly explain that if not for this legislative unfairness (specifically, gender discrimination) his parent could have registered him under BNA 1981 by making use of the transitional registration period within BNA 1981 (1983-1987) combined with gender discrimination. BNA 1981 had a transitional registration period which was continued with the end date being 31 December 1987. I believe that the relevant section is BNA 1981 Section 9, as originally enacted, although I will look into this further.

You may want to explain that South Africa was outside of the Commonwealth from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994 inclusive to avoid a rejection due to a passport examiner not understanding that South Africa was a "foreign country" as set out in section 9.

Let us know when the application is approved.

pinkrose Jul 18th 2022 12:54 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
jmin Thank you! This helps so much!

For this application, I’m wondering what supporting documents he’d need?

And do all applications have to be sent via post along with the supporting documents?
Or can it be done online?

Thanks again!

jmin Jul 23rd 2022 11:34 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by pinkrose (Post 13129512)
jmin Thank you! This helps so much!

For this application, I’m wondering what supporting documents he’d need?

And do all applications have to be sent via post along with the supporting documents?
Or can it be done online?

Thanks again!

You would need to reference (quote in full) the appropriate section of BNA 1981 that contains the registration language. I believe it is section 9. You would then need to explain how that would have applied to your husband if not for historical legislative unfairness (gender discrimination), You will need to show that his mother could have registered him (mother's birth certificate, proof that she would have been able to register him at the time of his birth such as old passport, information on her parents, and so on). Then reference the new nationality act, the guidance, and how it applies to him. You need to spend some time on this, perhaps write it up and post it here so we can review it before you submit the registration documents. The reason you need to be careful is that I do not believe that there are any approved registrations using this route yet. This is because the guidance was only published at the end of June so the firm that advertised this solution would only have begun submitting these registrations around that time.
The Home Office's ARD guidance on required documentation is:Please send the following documents:
  • Your passport
  • Information to show how you would have been, or would have been able to become, a British citizen. This might include:
    • Your full birth certificate (one which includes the name of your parent(s))
    • your mother or father’s birth certificate and evidence of their status at the time of your birth
  • Information relating to an act or omission of a public authority, if you are applying on that basis
  • Evidence of your exceptional circumstances, if you are applying on that basis
As far as online or by post, the form you cited is by post.

Cocky01 Aug 4th 2022 10:38 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Hi Pinkrose,

We seem to have husbands in common, have you done this application yet? We would like to get started, but unsure if applications are open and if so what application form to use, any assistance or guidance would be greatly appreciated.



pinkrose Aug 10th 2022 1:20 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
jmin This helps so much! Thank you!

Cocky01 My husband hasn't applied yet as we are waiting for his retention letter first. As far as I know the Home Office is accepting applications already. I found this form online that one would need to post to the Home Office along with the supporting documents: https://assets.publishing.service.go...-ard-06-22.pdf

I'll be posting his "argument" of why he should be granted citizenship here before he submits.
I'll keep you all updated.

sptolsma Sep 7th 2022 9:11 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Hey,
I'm in a very similar situation. I will apply through the same route, without the help of lawyers. The asking price for representation is absurd!

jmin Sep 8th 2022 1:56 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by sptolsma (Post 13139781)
Hey,
I'm in a very similar situation. I will apply through the same route, without the help of lawyers. The asking price for representation is absurd!

As far as I know, no one has had a successful claim with this route yet because of the Home Office's processing timelines. That said, the government has guidance (ARD guide) that could be used to draft a statement in support of a registration application.
The ARD Guide lists three 'historical legislative unfairness' scenarios, although there are more that are not listed. The parent would have been able to register their child if the law had:
  • treated men and women equally
  • treated children of unmarried couples in the same way as children of married couples
  • treated children of couples where the mother was married to someone other than the natural father in the same way as children of couples where the mother was married to the natural father.
Here is a short example of a statement for an applicant who was born in the USA in 1984 to parents that were married, whose mother was born in the USA, and whose maternal grandfather was born in London. Any application will be unique and while the idea would be the same for an unmarried mother, you would need to explain why. Do not just submit this statement and do not assume it is correct, I am posting it to add to the conversation. Remember that you need to send the correct supporting documents (birth certificates, marriage certificates, colour copies of your passport, parent/grandparent's UK passport number, and so on).

If not for historical legislative unfairness (gender discrimination), my mother would have been able to register me under section 9 of BNA 1981 because:
  1. I was born in 1984 in the USA to a mother who was a British citizen by descent.
  2. I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations (1983-1987). (Section 9 of BNA 1981)
  3. My mother was a British citizen by descent born in the United States.
  4. My maternal grandfather was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands) <---note that UK and Islands means England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, etc, it does not mean the entire former empire.
  5. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my maternal grandfather was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
  6. I satisfy the test in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
  • Immediately before the commencement of BNA 1981 my mother was a CUKC by descent (Section 5 of the 1948 Act)
  • My mother was married to my father (although whether or not they were married is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness)
  • My mother was 'ordinarly resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (USA is a foreign country under the act).
  • My mother became a British Citizen on commencement of BNA 1981 (CUKCs by descent with a father born in the UK became British Citizens on commencement by section 11(1) of BNA 1981).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Include Section 9 of BNA 1981 in your submission and note that all references to 'father' are gender discrimination/historical legislative unfairness:
Right to registration by virtue of father's citizenship etc.
(1)A person born in a foreign country within five years after commencement shall be entitled, on an application for his registration as a British citizen made within the period of twelve months from the date of the birth, to be registered as such a citizen if—
(a)the requirements specified in subsection (2) are fulfilled in the case of that person's father ; and
(b)had that person been born before commencement and become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of section 5 of the 1948 Act (citizenship by descent) as a result of the registration of his birth at a United Kingdom consulate under paragraph (b) of the proviso to section 5(1) of that Act, he would immediately before commencement have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom by virtue of section 2(1)(b) of the [1971 c. 77.] Immigration Act 1971 as then in force (connection with United Kingdom through parent or grandparent).
(2)The requirements referred to in subsection (1)(a) are that the father of the person to whom the application relates—
(a)immediately before commencement or at his death (whichever was earlier)—
(i)was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of section 5 of the 1948 Act (citizenship by descent) or was a person who, under any provision of the British Nationality Acts 1948 to 1965 was deemed for the purposes of the proviso to section 5(1) of the 1948 Act to be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent only ; and
(ii)was married to that person's mother ; and
(iii)was ordinarily resident in a foreign country (no matter which) within the meaning of the 1948 Act; and
(b)either—
(i)became a British citizen at commencement and remained such a citizen throughout the period from commencement to the date of the application or, if he died during that period, throughout the period from commencement to his death ; or
(ii)would have become a British citizen at commencement but for his death.

Note that 2(a)(ii) (parents were married at your birth) is also historical legislative unfairness according to the ARD Guidance. If your parents were unmarried, explain that this is gender discrimation.

No one statement will work for all applicants as their situations will be different, including their countries of birth. For example, the registration section asks you to suppose that you were born before the enactment of BNA 1981. In that case, if you would have been a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies you would need to explain how you meet these two tests under the 1948 Act:
1. Were you born in a foreign country? You can ask here but as an example, the USA is a foreign country and South Africa is treated as a foreign country from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994 inclusive.
2. Would you have the right of abode under section 2(1)(b) of the Immigration Act of 1971?

Here is the relevant section 2(1)(b) of the 1971 Act that you would include in your statement:
A person is under this Act to have the right of abode in the United Kingdom if—
(b)he is a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies born to or legally adopted by a parent who had that citizenship at the time of the birth or adoption, and the parent either—
(i)then had that citizenship by his birth, adoption, naturalisation or (except as mentioned below) registration in the United Kingdom or in any of the Islands; or
(ii)had been born to or legally adopted by a parent who at the time of that birth or adoption so had it;

You would have ROA from a parent (b) who was (i) born in the UK or (ii) your grandparent was born in the UK. Explain how you would have had ROA under 2(1)(b) of the 1971 Act from your parent or grandparent.

sptolsma Sep 8th 2022 7:08 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
jmin Thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail. Much appreciated!

The more I read into this, the more I realise how complex the application is. As you said, each application is unique.

My mother was born to a British mother in Zimbabwe in 1959. I was then born in South Africa in 1986. Making a case and explaining why I am eligible for citizenship seems to be a job for lawyers who have a grasp on the legislation.

I must admit, I’m considering scraping the money together for Sable to get the job done.

justin4d Sep 29th 2022 10:17 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
@jmin - have you considered consulting to assist us mere-mortals that are not as well-versed to form the applications instead of paying absurd amounts to Sable? I would definitely consider strongly wanting to save some money whilst remunerating you for your advisory and support!

Looking forward to your reply :fingerscrossed:

christmasoompa Sep 29th 2022 10:27 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13144639)
@jmin - have you considered consulting to assist us mere-mortals that are not as well-versed to form the applications instead of paying absurd amounts to Sable? I would definitely consider strongly wanting to save some money whilst remunerating you for your advisory and support!

Looking forward to your reply :fingerscrossed:

Not an option I'm afraid. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...gration-advice

HTH.


justin4d Sep 29th 2022 10:35 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
Fair enough - in this case - is anyone aware of an advisory company / immigration lawyer that would be registered to be able to provide such guidance, or is Sable the only provider that seems to be able to provide this service re. the unique British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)?

I would welcome any advice on alternatives that are available. Thank you!

christmasoompa Sep 29th 2022 10:40 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13144646)
Fair enough - in this case - is anyone aware of a person that would be registered to be able to provide such guidance, or is Sable the only provider that seems to be able to provide this service re. the unique British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)?

I would welcome any advice on alternatives that are available. Thank you!

You could try posting on the forum and seeing if anybody can help you for free? As you can see from the forum we have some very knowledgeable people around, granted they're not lawyers or registered immi consultants so the advice isn't official, but they may be able to steer you in the right direction.

Or you'd need to find a registered consultants or lawyer who has knowledge of this area of law, I'm sure there are others as well as Sable out there.

Good luck.

jmin Oct 4th 2022 1:37 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by sptolsma (Post 13140038)
jmin Thank you for taking the time to respond in such detail. Much appreciated!

The more I read into this, the more I realise how complex the application is. As you said, each application is unique.

My mother was born to a British mother in Zimbabwe in 1959. I was then born in South Africa in 1986. Making a case and explaining why I am eligible for citizenship seems to be a job for lawyers who have a grasp on the legislation.

I must admit, I’m considering scraping the money together for Sable to get the job done.

Apologies as I only now saw your reply. You may have a valid CBR claim through your mother. I will try to help if you have not already contacted Sable.

Where and in what years were both sets of grandparents born? When were the grandparents married? Were your maternal grandparents married at the time of your mother's birth? What were their citizenships? Where and when was your father born? Were your parents married at the time of your birth?





jmin Oct 4th 2022 1:41 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13144646)
Fair enough - in this case - is anyone aware of an advisory company / immigration lawyer that would be registered to be able to provide such guidance, or is Sable the only provider that seems to be able to provide this service re. the unique British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)?

I would welcome any advice on alternatives that are available. Thank you!

I will respond if you provide specifics on how you feel you are eligible. As another poster mentions, It's not official and I am not an immigration consultant - it's only a hobby and a desire to try to help since I went through a multi-year process to prove my own claim.

Where and when you were born, where and when your grandparents were born, citizenships, maternal grandparents married or not at her birth, your parents married at the time of your birth, and so on.

There are alternatives to Sable in the UK (with similar pricing) for some of the less complicated claims, which I suppose many of these CBR claims are. A google search should find some registered consultants or lawyers.

Based on some of the posts here, there is at least one group operating out of South Africa that provides 'discount' services - but they don't submit an argument with how you are eligible. They charge you, collect your documents, and then let the Home Office's caseworker divine how you are eligible when they submit your application. This can lead to denied applications that should have been approved.

justin4d Oct 4th 2022 2:20 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13145708)
I will respond if you provide specifics on how you feel you are eligible. As another poster mentions, It's not official and I am not an immigration consultant - it's only a hobby and a desire to try to help since I went through a multi-year process to prove my own claim.

Where and when you were born, where and when your grandparents were born, citizenships, maternal grandparents married or not at her birth, your parents married at the time of your birth, and so on.

There are alternatives to Sable in the UK (with similar pricing) for some of the less complicated claims, which I suppose many of these CBR claims are. A google search should find some registered consultants or lawyers.

Based on some of the posts here, there is at least one group operating out of South Africa that provides 'discount' services - but they don't submit an argument with how you are eligible. They charge you, collect your documents, and then let the Home Office's caseworker divine how you are eligible when they submit your application. This can lead to denied applications that should have been approved.


Thanks @jmin that is very kind of you.

I have contacted Sable today and got the latest timelines - they will take 18-20 weeks until a caseworker from Sable looks at my file (after paying their fees), then once I get all the documents aligned, then the official process begins with UK Govt and that will take a further approximated 6-9 months. I have not yet pulled the trigger but will assess all options out there that I can pursue.

Where and when you were born: South Africa, Oct 1984 (within the approved dates for CBR)
Where and when your grandparents were born: Will look to apply through my grandmother (father's mother) who was born in UK (1926) and fled to SA on ship during WWII before her parents (both British) joined her at a later stage in SA.
My grandfather (father's father) who married my UK Grandmother in 1950, was South African (born in SA but has 1820 British Settler heritage but irrelevant for this CBR I assume).
Citizenships: My mother (South African born but currently on UK ancestral visa through her grandfather's British ancestry since Feb '21), my Father (South African and was denied the ability to get a UK passport through my maternal grandmother, whilst she was still alive many years ago). Myself - South African.
Maternal grandparents married or not at her birth: I assume you mean grandparents married during my father's birth - if so, then yes as my father was born in 1953 and they were married prior to this in 1950.
Your parents married at the time of your birth: Yes - Apr 1984. Subsequently divorced around 2014/2015.

As for the reason why I believe I can apply for British Citizenship by Discretion - I am not sure what to bolster my argument with - other than the above which is what Sable has used to share with me that I am eligible to apply; which is not very much literature to be honest. I assume they'd share more once I have sunk myself into the journey with them.

Is there some form of required proof that my father was discriminated against for not being able to get his UK passport through not having been allowed to be passed down from his UK mother?

Your support is really appreciated as there is not much literature out there on the Internet (besides Sable links) nor on Youtube...

Thanks so much!


sptolsma Oct 4th 2022 6:55 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13145706)
Apologies as I only now saw your reply. You may have a valid CBR claim through your mother. I will try to help if you have not already contacted Sable.

Where and in what years were both sets of grandparents born? When were the grandparents married? Were your maternal grandparents married at the time of your mother's birth? What were their citizenships? Where and when was your father born? Were your parents married at the time of your birth?

Paternal grandfather, Dutch: Netherlands 1932
Paternal grandmother, British: England 1930
Married: 1955
Father: South Africa 1958

Maternal grandfather, South African: South Africa ca. 1940
Maternal grandmother, British: England 1942
Married: 1958
Mother: Rhodesia 1959

My birth 1986
My parents married 1985

Thank you!

jmin Oct 5th 2022 11:19 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by sptolsma (Post 13145853)
Paternal grandfather, Dutch: Netherlands 1932
Paternal grandmother, British: England 1930
Married: 1955
Father: South Africa 1958

Maternal grandfather, South African: South Africa ca. 1940
Maternal grandmother, British: England 1942
Married: 1958
Mother: Rhodesia 1959

My birth 1986
My parents married 1985

Thank you!

To save time, were either of your parents CUKCs? British Citizens? I see your mother was born during Rhodesia's federal period.

sptolsma Oct 5th 2022 11:24 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 
jmin No, they were not.
They are both British citizens now, but only obtained citizenship recently (2016)

jmin Oct 5th 2022 11:28 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13145720)
Thanks @jmin that is very kind of you.

Citizenships: My mother (South African born but currently on UK ancestral visa through her grandfather's British ancestry since Feb '21), my Father (South African and was denied the ability to get a UK passport through my maternal grandmother, whilst she was still alive many years ago). Myself - South African.
Maternal grandparents married or not at her birth: I assume you mean grandparents married during my father's birth - if so, then yes as my father was born in 1953 and they were married prior to this in 1950.


Tell me more about your maternal grandmother (your mother's mother). Was she born in the UK meaning England, Scotland, Wales, etc? When was your mother's mother born? When was your mother born? Your mother's father and mother were married when she was born?

I am interested in this for your claim but the changes in the law also mean that it's likely that whatever reasons that led to her prior rejection would now be overcome.

jmin Oct 5th 2022 11:32 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by sptolsma (Post 13146081)
jmin No, they were not.
They are both British citizens now, but only obtained citizenship recently (2016)

How did they obtain it? What was the basis of the claim? Were they registrations or just an application for a passport?

I want to write an argument that's correct and avoid using your father if, for example, he had an automatic claim. Or if your mother's claim was automatic mentioning why she couldn't use the CBR route or if wasn't automatic how she could have been a British citizen herself if not for gender discrimination. Your mother was born during the federal period so it's possible she had an automatic claim.

sptolsma Oct 5th 2022 11:45 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13146086)
How did they obtain it? What was the basis of the claim? Were they registrations or just an application for a passport?

I want to write an argument that's correct and avoid using your father if, for example, he had an automatic claim. Or if your mother's claim was automatic mentioning why she couldn't use the CBR route or if wasn't automatic how she could have been a British citizen herself if not for gender discrimination. Your mother was born during the federal period so it's possible she had an automatic claim.

They were both standard routes to British citizenship. My parents could not receive British citizenship as children because of gender discrimination. Their mothers were British, but only men could pass down citizenship at the time. Once that law changed (around 2012) they were able to apply. I hope that helps.

justin4d Oct 6th 2022 12:26 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13146084)
Tell me more about your maternal grandmother (your mother's mother). Was she born in the UK meaning England, Scotland, Wales, etc? When was your mother's mother born? When was your mother born? Your mother's father and mother were married when she was born?

I am interested in this for your claim but the changes in the law also mean that it's likely that whatever reasons that led to her prior rejection would now be overcome.

Hi ​​​jmin
  • My mother's mother was born in SA (1936) (both mother's mother's parents were born in SA).
  • My mother is currently in the UK on ancestral visa after sourcing her original blood father's birth certificate (born in SA and died when my mother was 5) linking her to her UK born grandfather.
  • She had to use her blood father's birth certificate in order to prove the link between her, her blood father (SA born) and her blood grandfather (UK born) - as my mother was legally adopted by her current adopted father at the age of around 7.
  • Therefore my application will not be linked to my mother's mother as this is irrelevant for this CBR claim - if I am correct?
  • The route I will take is my father's mother (per the prior post reply with info).
  • I am not sure what form of application or level of detail / effort my UK grandmother used to apply for a UK passport for her kids as kids or adults, or if she did anything at all to be honest
  • However, I heard via family that it was just something that was not allowed based on the prior laws that were gender discriminatory.
  • Nothing was ever done by the family since she passed on in 2010, and it's only now that I am wanting to take action to look into this, on behalf of the extended family.
Hope this helps somewhat?
Is there a reason why you needed my mother's lineage for the application information?

Also - is there a specific reason why the grandchildren as Applicant's to this ruling would have had to have been born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987? My sister was born in 1989, but am unable to explain to her as to how she is not eligible.

Thanks :cool:

jmin Oct 7th 2022 12:18 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by sptolsma (Post 13145853)
Paternal grandfather, Dutch: Netherlands 1932
Paternal grandmother, British: England 1930
Married: 1955
Father: South Africa 1958

Maternal grandfather, South African: South Africa ca. 1940
Maternal grandmother, British: England 1942
Married: 1958
Mother: Rhodesia 1959

My birth 1986
My parents married 1985

Thank you!

Perhaps BritInParis could review this. I am not certain whether it's better to use your mother, your father, or both. You say that both of your parents received their citizenship after your birth as a result of a change in law (gender discrimination), so you can use either or both for the claim. But they might be confused if you use your father (because a father who was a British citizen could register their child during the transitional period, although yours was not at the time). I will do it for your mother, you can replace the specifics for your father.

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my mother could have registered me under BNA 1981 Section 9 (consular birth registration). I am therefore eligible to register as a British Citizen due to the recent changes in British Nationality Law (Section 4L of BNA 1981 which came into force on 28 June 2022).
  1. I was born in 1986 in South Africa.
  2. I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations (1983-1987). (Section 9 of BNA 1981)
  3. My mother, born in Zimbabwe in 1959, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for gender discrimination (she subsequently acquired British citizenship after my birth - insert date - because the law changed to address this historical legislative unfairness). Specifically, if not for gender discrimination she could have been a British citizen because her mother (my maternal grandmother) was born in England in 1942.
  4. My maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom in the meaning used in BNA 1981 (birth within the United Kingdom and Islands - specifically England)
  5. I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my maternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
  6. I satisfy the test in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
  • Immediately before the commencement of BNA 1981 my mother could have been a CUKC by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 5 of the 1948 Act)
  • My mother was married to my father (although whether or not they were married is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness) - date of marriage was 1985
  • My mother was 'ordinarily resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (South Africa is a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994).
  • My mother would have become a British Citizen on commencement of BNA 1981 if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (CUKCs by descent with a parent born in the UK became British Citizens on commencement by section 11(1) of BNA 1981).
For your application: Form ARD + guidance;
https://www.gov.uk/government/public...tizen-form-ard

Caseworker guidance (so you can read how a caseworker will approach these applications):
https://assets.publishing.service.go...cumstances.pdf

Here is the right to register under BNA 1981 9(1). Write up a statement that all references to a father are gender discrimination and that South Africa was a foreign country between 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994 inclusive.

Right to registration by virtue of father's citizenship etc (emphasis mine).

(1)A person born in a foreign country within five years after commencement shall be entitled, on an application for his registration as a British citizen made within the period of twelve months from the date of the birth, to be registered as such a citizen if—

(a)the requirements specified in subsection (2) are fulfilled in the case of that person's father (Note: the use of father is gender discrimination); and

(b)had that person been born before commencement and become a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of section 5 of the 1948 Act (citizenship by descent) as a result of the registration of his birth at a United Kingdom consulate under paragraph (b) of the proviso to section 5(1) of that Act, he would immediately before commencement have had the right of abode in the United Kingdom by virtue of section 2(1)(b) of the [1971 c. 77.] Immigration Act 1971 as then in force (connection with United Kingdom through parent or grandparent). (Note: you would have had right of abode from your maternal grandmother)

The test in BNA 1981 9(2)
The requirements referred to in subsection (1)(a) are that the father (NOTE: Gender Discrimination) of the person to whom the application relates—

(a)immediately before commencement or at his death (whichever was earlier)—

(i)was a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by virtue of section 5 of the 1948 Act (citizenship by descent) (Note: If not for gender discrimination) or was a person who, under any provision of the British Nationality Acts 1948 to 1965 was deemed for the purposes of the proviso to section 5(1) of the 1948 Act to be a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies by descent only ; and

(ii)was married to that person's mother ; and

(iii)was ordinarily resident in a foreign country (no matter which) within the meaning of the 1948 Act; and

(b)either—

(i)became a British citizen at commencement and remained such a citizen throughout the period from commencement to the date of the application (Note: Would have become a British Citizen if not for gender discrimination) or, if he died during that period, throughout the period from commencement to his death ; or

(ii)would have become a British citizen at commencement but for his death.

jmin Oct 10th 2022 2:21 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13146096)
Hi ​​​jmin

Where and when you were born: South Africa, Oct 1984 (within the approved dates for CBR)
Where and when your grandparents were born: Will look to apply through my grandmother (father's mother) who was born in UK (1926) and fled to SA on ship during WWII before her parents (both British) joined her at a later stage in SA.
My grandfather (father's father) who married my UK Grandmother in 1950, was South African (born in SA but has 1820 British Settler heritage but irrelevant for this CBR I assume).
Citizenships: My mother (South African born but currently on UK ancestral visa through her grandfather's British ancestry since Feb '21), my Father (South African and was denied the ability to get a UK passport through my maternal grandmother, whilst she was still alive many years ago). Myself - South African.
Maternal grandparents married or not at her birth: I assume you mean grandparents married during my father's birth - if so, then yes as my father was born in 1953 and they were married prior to this in 1950.
Your parents married at the time of your birth: Yes - Apr 1984. Subsequently divorced around 2014/2015.

Also - is there a specific reason why the grandchildren as Applicant's to this ruling would have had to have been born between 1 January 1983 and 31 December 1987? My sister was born in 1989, but am unable to explain to her as to how she is not eligible.

Thanks :cool:

I will first address your sister (born in 1989) for the benefit of others and then I will provide an idea for an argument that you can use for your own case. The consular birth registration (CBR) route is for those born during the five year period beginning on 1 January 1983 and ending 31 December 1987. This is from BNA 1981 Section 9. The reason that gender discrimination does not apply for CBR claims for births after 1987 is that neither men nor women could register their children after this date and hence it could not be gender discrimination.

That said, your sister could have a claim if your father spent three years in the UK prior to her birth.

I do not think this is the end of the story, though. As BritInParis has mentioned elsewhere, section 4L (the new law) is very broad. It is broad enough that there is an argument to be made that someone born after 1987 whose parent and/or grandparent was subject to a historical legislative unfairness could still make a plausible registration argument (that would end up in the courts). As a thought experiment, consider the case of consular birth registrations. It's well known that most people who were eligible to register their children under section 9 did not do so. This is generally because they did not know about the changes in law or the twelve-month deadline. But Section 4L in the context of CBRs means that if a chance to make a registration was denied due to gender discrimination, such a registration must be allowed today. Even though we know that most such children would never have been registered at the time (similar logic appeared in the Romein case).

Similarly, those subject to gender discrimination under British nationality laws missed many other chances. For example, consider the case of your father who was denied British Citizenship (and CUKC before it) due to gender discrimination. Had the laws not been discriminatory, there is a chance that your father would have chosen to move to the UK as an adult (or his mother would have moved the family there as a child) or at least lived there for three years. If your father had been a British citizen there is a chance that your sister would have been born in the UK or been able to use the three-year route. We will never know because this chance was denied due to discrimination. This is more than theoretical as it happened in practice - there are many British South Africans living in the UK.

I would expect Sable to test such a claim once they have established other more straightforward routes, such as CBR. They will probably look for an applicant who has documentary evidence that their parent wanted to move to the UK shortly before their birth but could not (job rejection mentioning lack of citizenship, visa denied, visa approved for father but rejected for mother when it would have been approved if the father was a citizen, and so on). I think that such an argument would be weaker if the chance to move to the UK was long before the birth of the applicant (or before the applicant's parents met) as it would call into question the existence of the applicant under such a thought experiment. Ideally, you would want to make an argument that while your mother was pregnant with your sister, your father wanted to move your family to the UK before the birth but could not because he was not a British Citizen.

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my father could have registered me under BNA 1981 Section 9 (five-year transitional period for consular birth registrations). I am therefore eligible to register as a British Citizen due to the recent changes in British Nationality Law that rectified historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 4L of BNA 1981 which came into force on 28 June 2022).

My paternal grandmother was a British Citizen otherwise than by descent born in the United Kingdom (England) in 1936.
Specifically, my paternal grandmother was a:
First, a natural-born British Subject under the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 1(1)(a)
Next, a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) under BNA 1948 12(1)(a)
Finally, a British Citizen otherwise than by descent under BNA 1981 11(1) as she had the right of abode in the United Kingdom under the Immigration Act of 1971 as she was born in England.

I was born in 1984 in South Africa.
I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations which lasted from 1983 to 1987. (Section 9 of BNA 1981) This transitional period allowed fathers who were British citizens by descent to register a child as a British citizen within "the period of twelve months from the date of birth" and lasted for 5 years (1983-1987).
My father, born in South Africa in 1953, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for gender discrimination (descent was through fathers, not mothers, at the time). See below for further details:
Specifically, if not for gender discrimination, my father would have 1.) been a CUKC by descent at birth under BNA 1948 5(1) (birth to a mother who was a CUKC and born in the United Kingdom and Colonies, the discriminatory text mentions only 'father') and then 2.) a British citizen by descent by BNA 1981 11(1) as originally enacted (a CUKC who had a right of abode under the Immigration Act of 1971 became a British Citizen on commencement and my father would have had ROA from his mother under the Immigration Act of 1971 2(1)(b)(ii))
I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my paternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
I satisfy the test for registration as a British citizen in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
9(2)(a)(i): "Immediately before commencement" of BNA 1981 my father could have been a CUKC by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (The discriminatory language in section 5 of the 1948 Act referenced in 9(2) of BNA 1981 uses 'father' and not 'mother')
9(2)(a)(ii) My father was married to my mother at the time of my birth (although whether or not they were married is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness) - date of marriage was April 1984
9(2)(a)(ii) My father was 'ordinarily resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (South Africa was a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994, refer to the Home Office's caseworker guidance on the subject).
9(2)(b)(i) My father would have become a British citizen at the commencement of BNA 1981 if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination
The twelve-month registration period in 9(1) is ignored in gender discrimination cases such as mine (refer to Home Office's guidance).

justin4d Oct 10th 2022 6:33 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13146847)
I will first address your sister (born in 1989) for the benefit of others and then I will provide an idea for an argument that you can use for your own case. The consular birth registration (CBR) route is for those born during the five year period beginning on 1 January 1983 and ending 31 December 1987. This is from BNA 1981 Section 9. The reason that gender discrimination does not apply for CBR claims for births after 1987 is that neither men nor women could register their children after this date and hence it could not be gender discrimination.

That said, your sister could have a claim if your father spent three years in the UK prior to her birth.

I do not think this is the end of the story, though. As BritInParis has mentioned elsewhere, section 4L (the new law) is very broad. It is broad enough that there is an argument to be made that someone born after 1987 whose parent and/or grandparent was subject to a historical legislative unfairness could still make a plausible registration argument (that would end up in the courts). As a thought experiment, consider the case of consular birth registrations. It's well known that most people who were eligible to register their children under section 9 did not do so. This is generally because they did not know about the changes in law or the twelve-month deadline. But Section 4L in the context of CBRs means that if a chance to make a registration was denied due to gender discrimination, such a registration must be allowed today. Even though we know that most such children would never have been registered at the time (similar logic appeared in the Romein case).

Similarly, those subject to gender discrimination under British nationality laws missed many other chances. For example, consider the case of your father who was denied British Citizenship (and CUKC before it) due to gender discrimination. Had the laws not been discriminatory, there is a chance that your father would have chosen to move to the UK as an adult (or his mother would have moved the family there as a child) or at least lived there for three years. If your father had been a British citizen there is a chance that your sister would have been born in the UK or been able to use the three-year route. We will never know because this chance was denied due to discrimination. This is more than theoretical as it happened in practice - there are many British South Africans living in the UK.

I would expect Sable to test such a claim once they have established other more straightforward routes, such as CBR. They will probably look for an applicant who has documentary evidence that their parent wanted to move to the UK shortly before their birth but could not (job rejection mentioning lack of citizenship, visa denied, visa approved for father but rejected for mother when it would have been approved if the father was a citizen, and so on). I think that such an argument would be weaker if the chance to move to the UK was long before the birth of the applicant (or before the applicant's parents met) as it would call into question the existence of the applicant under such a thought experiment. Ideally, you would want to make an argument that while your mother was pregnant with your sister, your father wanted to move your family to the UK before the birth but could not because he was not a British Citizen.

Claim: If not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination my father could have registered me under BNA 1981 Section 9 (five-year transitional period for consular birth registrations). I am therefore eligible to register as a British Citizen due to the recent changes in British Nationality Law that rectified historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (Section 4L of BNA 1981 which came into force on 28 June 2022).

My paternal grandmother was a British Citizen otherwise than by descent born in the United Kingdom (England) in 1936.
Specifically, my paternal grandmother was a:
First, a natural-born British Subject under the British Nationality and Status of Aliens Act 1914 1(1)(a)
Next, a Citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (CUKC) under BNA 1948 12(1)(a)
Finally, a British Citizen otherwise than by descent under BNA 1981 11(1) as she had the right of abode in the United Kingdom under the Immigration Act of 1971 as she was born in England.

I was born in 1984 in South Africa.
I was born during BNA 1981's transitional period for consular birth registrations which lasted from 1983 to 1987. (Section 9 of BNA 1981) This transitional period allowed fathers who were British citizens by descent to register a child as a British citizen within "the period of twelve months from the date of birth" and lasted for 5 years (1983-1987).
My father, born in South Africa in 1953, could have been a British citizen by descent if not for gender discrimination (descent was through fathers, not mothers, at the time). See below for further details:
Specifically, if not for gender discrimination, my father would have 1.) been a CUKC by descent at birth under BNA 1948 5(1) (birth to a mother who was a CUKC and born in the United Kingdom and Colonies, the discriminatory text mentions only 'father') and then 2.) a British citizen by descent by BNA 1981 11(1) as originally enacted (a CUKC who had a right of abode under the Immigration Act of 1971 became a British Citizen on commencement and my father would have had ROA from his mother under the Immigration Act of 1971 2(1)(b)(ii))
I would have had the right of abode under the test set out in section 9(1)(b) of BNA 1981 because my paternal grandmother was born in the United Kingdom (Immigration Act of 1971 section 2(1)(b)(ii)).
I satisfy the test for registration as a British citizen in section 9(2) of BNA 1981 because:
9(2)(a)(i): "Immediately before commencement" of BNA 1981 my father could have been a CUKC by descent if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination (The discriminatory language in section 5 of the 1948 Act referenced in 9(2) of BNA 1981 uses 'father' and not 'mother')
9(2)(a)(ii) My father was married to my mother at the time of my birth (although whether or not they were married is immaterial as it is also historical legislative unfairness) - date of marriage was April 1984
9(2)(a)(ii) My father was 'ordinarily resident' in a foreign country under the meaning of the 1948 Act (South Africa was a foreign country under the act from 31 May 1962 to 25 July 1994, refer to the Home Office's caseworker guidance on the subject).
9(2)(b)(i) My father would have become a British citizen at the commencement of BNA 1981 if not for historical legislative unfairness/gender discrimination
The twelve-month registration period in 9(1) is ignored in gender discrimination cases such as mine (refer to Home Office's guidance).


@jmin what you have provided me with, in terms of your time and efforts, are absolutely incredible - I cannot thank you enough! Now for the next steps of filling out the official application! :)

jmin Oct 13th 2022 10:54 pm

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by justin4d (Post 13146894)
@jmin what you have provided me with, in terms of your time and efforts, are absolutely incredible - I cannot thank you enough! Now for the next steps of filling out the official application! :)

Keep us updated on the application. It would be helpful to others in the future if we know that the Home Office accepted the argument.

You also need to source a number of documents, if you have not already done so. Paternal grandmother's birth certificate and marriage certificate, birth and marriage certificates for your parents, your birth certificate, and so on. The UK birth certificate from England can be ordered online from the GRO. I believe South Africans also have to apply to retain their nationality?

justin4d Oct 14th 2022 12:25 am

Re: British Citizenship by Discretion (CBR post 1982)
 

Originally Posted by jmin (Post 13147700)
Keep us updated on the application. It would be helpful to others in the future if we know that the Home Office accepted the argument.

You also need to source a number of documents, if you have not already done so. Paternal grandmother's birth certificate and marriage certificate, birth and marriage certificates for your parents, your birth certificate, and so on. The UK birth certificate from England can be ordered online from the GRO. I believe South Africans also have to apply to retain their nationality?

jmin So far I have the following documents:
  • Republic of SA: Full birth certificate - myself, Father (linked to British Grandmother) & my Mother
  • UK: Entry of Birth - British Grandmother
  • Republic of SA: Marriage certificate of British Grandmother & SA Grandfather (Father's father)
  • Marriage & Divorce certificates: My Father & Mother
For anyone that has applied, I have some questions.

I found the following under the link shown:


"Fees are payable in accordance with The Immigration and Nationality (Fees) Regulations 2018. There is no application fee to apply for British citizenship if you would have acquired that status automatically (but for historical legislative unfairness, an act or omission of a public authority, or exceptional circumstances), but you will need to pay the ceremony fee of £80 if you are over the age of 18. You need to send this with your application, using the payment slip.If, however, you would have qualified for registration or naturalisation but for legislative unfairness, an act or omission of a public authority or exceptional circumstances, you will still need to pay an application fee to register under this route, as well as a ceremony fee. Fees are listed on our fees page."
Link: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ard-accessible
Fees link: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/330

--> So based on the fact that this application is related to historical unfairness, am I right to assume that I only need to pay the £80 and not the £1.5k that I was quoted was a Govt processing fee (and not charged by Sable Intl. themselves)?

Also - is it best to rather submit the Full application & legal argument via post, or is there a better, more efficient digital solution for online application? (as I cannot for the life of me, find it anywhere!)
Paper application link: https://assets.publishing.service.go...r_guidance.pdf
Finally - is there any other way to pay for the Gov't services other than this antiquated paper documented system (see below) which could lead to fraud?
https://assets.publishing.service.go...Slip_-_PDF.pdf

Thanks all!



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