Three years !!
 

Well, it’s been 3 years now since moving to Vancouver, BC (well suburbia). My gripes are already well documented and I’m sure that the ‘Vancouver/Canada lovers’ are already circling like vultures ready to pick at any perceived criticism of the beloved adopted home.

There are lots of people, who moved here just because they like it, and the associated lifestyle. Anyone who moved here a few years will have done very well out of any property they bought and benefitted from good exchange rates at the time etc. Anyone moving here now or recently will not be in that fortunate position.

Me, I moved here for my family (OH is Canadian). I always liked visiting here, but living here has been a very different scenario. The entire reason for moving here (OH’s work) went t*ts up very quickly and she was treated very poorly by the people concerned. I have struggled with work, and I’m pretty much doing the kind of work that I was doing in the 90’s. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but we jumped too quickly without really thinking it all through.

So what lies ahead? Mental breakdown – possibly:unsure:. Without a doubt, had I been here on my own, I would have left about a year ago. Life is more complicated when you have a family. Things definitely have got to change and some risk taking needs to happen. I can apply for citizenship in about 6m. It’d be foolish not to get it, but once I do and if life isn’t any better, we are going back to the UK – no mistake.

The good (IMO – Not facts !!)

-The scenery, summer weather.
-Pretty clean place with nice parks and open spaces.
-If you like outdoor rec. walking, skiing etc is great.
-Good restaurants.
-People are polite (but see below)
-I can see why people like it here, but it’s just not for me.

The bad (IMO – Not facts !!)

-Cost of living is pretty high, availability of jobs and wages don’t match up.
-Lack of opportunity, competition.
-Taxes are high, at least as high as the UK if not higher. Look at the deductions from your pay check, it’s frightening - tax, CPP, EI, Union fees , superannuation etc, but so much else to pay for, which would be free/cheaper in the UK. MSP, car insurance, prescription costs, etc. Nickel and dimed for everything, whether it’s cable, banking fees. There is always a fee and a tax on top of that.
-Yes, people are polite, but I think that they are very hard to get to know well. Skin deep human interaction doesn’t replace long established friends/family and I miss that.
-Endless suburban sprawl, architecturally it’s a very bland city with little to no history – Anything with any historical value has probably already been razed to the ground.
-Turgid, puritanical, protectionist bureaucracy: BC/local government, Unions etc, raison d’être is seemingly to protect a certain few and their interests. The rich and powerful run a closed shop. BC is a good place to come if you enjoy banging your head against a brick wall.
-The best place on Earth? World’s greenest city? God, how I hate all the smug arrogant attitudes of a not insignificant percentage of the populace who think this place is the dog’s do-daa’s, yet have never travelled further than an outlet mall in Washington state. This attitude is perfectly exemplified by the top politicians, Campbell/Robertson etc. Seriously, Vancouver is what it is, stop trying to make everyone believe it’s some sort of utopia.
-Media, newspapers, TV etc all bland, pointless and utter garbage. Where are the investigative journalists? Why do people not question anything and blindly accept it? Can you imagine the Iraq war protests or poll tax riots in Vancouver, no neither can I.
-Crackheads/lunatics/street alkys. Everywhere. The average BC’er might be pretty clean living but this lot really try to make up the numbers. The UK equivalents at least hang around their council estate and are not in your face everywhere you go. Begging, hassling people, sob stories etc. Just FO.

Re: Three years !!
 

Why wait for citizenship? Given your dim view of the place, I'd doubt you would be back. Of course, UK it utopia;)

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Because, my family are Canadian citizens. If we left, who is to say that things might not be different in the future and we might want to return? Doesn't have to be Vancouver, there's a lot of Canada out there, that I haven't been to and it could perhaps be more to my liking? I certainly don't want to have to go through snail's pace Canadian immigration ever again.

I never said that the UK is utopia. I'm well aware of the pro's and con's of living there, unfortunately some people think Vancouver is utopia.

Re: Three years !!
 

Perhaps it is to them. Just as you are not content here, others are. Don't think its utopia, think I've been pretty frank with the nature of the place. I agree with some of your comments, such as dull media, pricey re and lack of jobs, but it's hardly the depressing place you make it out to be. No offense, but it does seem that you look for the bad in everything and you come across as bitter and negative, even miserable. Life is what you make of it.

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Not according to Fledermaus:rofl::p

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Offence taken:ohmy:. I have lived in a hell of lot of different places and countries and nowhere have I been quite as miserable as here. Why is that, as Vancouver certainly isn't the worst place in the world on the face of it? Obviously some of my experiences here are tainting things to a degree, but the winter rain and the overall blandness of the place do not help either and I have put some positive things in there as well. One thing is for sure is that if I come across as bitter and negative, I can assure that I wasn't like that prior to moving here !!

Personally, I wouldn't jump on someone's post and label them in such a way, as I don't think it's helpful to the person concerned. I'd rather not say anything at all frankly, but then I was rather expecting this as I mentioned at the beginning.

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If you don't want a response, don't post, simple.

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Point is that say what you like about the content of the post, but no need to get personal. Seems reasonable to me.

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Seems to me dboy was commenting on the CONTENT of the post. He said (to paraphrase) that the POST suggests you are bitter and look for the bad in everything.

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Do you deny the negatives in brizzles post? Seems pretty spot on to me.

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Even joking about a possible mental breakdown is no simple matter of coming across as bitter.

Rant away brizzle! And so what if you paint a more negative view than others might think, like to read, or agree with? We all view things differently, through the life experiences that made us who we are. Vancouver, to you - it is what it is ...

Well done on three years and good luck with the future, wherever it lies. I hope it brings stability, a calm contentment and less rain :p

Re: Three years !!
 

Actually brizzle, you and I have more in common than I realised. I also came here for OH. I have also travelled and lived in a lot of countries. I agree with most of your negatives, except the one about smug attitudes. I mean, yes, there is smugness, actually HELL YEAH but I find Van values to be more in line with my values than any other modern city I've lived. I can't stand the 1960's backwards urban sprawl thinking of much of Australia and New Zealand (lived in Melbourne for 4 years) or the hopelessly corrupt system over there. From that respect, Van is light years ahead of a lot of other cities in my opinion.

And I like the climate.

But yeah, the mainstream media sucks, however, there is the Georgia Straight, the Tyee.ca, etc. to provide some of the debate missing from the Asper family newspapers. Slightly OT but I hope they have to break up the company...but that's another thread.

OH, and I think you need to get out of Coquitlam. I suspect being in the centre of big box store stepford development hell isn't helping.

But otherwise, no arguments here. I think you nailed a lot of the downsides to living here. I am finally at a point where I don't give a rats' ass anymore about the lack of genunine interest 'Couves have in other people, but it's taken 7 years to get here.

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Yeah. Have you checked out the Tyee? It just won a journalism award and it actually does investigate stuff in BC, which is SO CRAZY.

More people need to read it imo.

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I agree with "The good."

Real estate, for sure.

I have never found getting reasonably paid and reasonably interesting work a problem, though I think I set the bar for "reasonably paid" lower than some.

Taxes about the same as UK IMO.

You are never going to replace family, or life-long friends, in three years. That goes with emigrating anywhere in the world. I've been here quite a bit longer and have made some very good friends.

I hear you on the urban sprawl. I just keep my head up and look at the mountains. There is history around but it does take some searching out.

There is quite a bit of that about.

I disagree, there is a lot of opportunity.

It is just politicians' puff. Nothing to be taken seriously.

A lot, agreed, but not all.

But much politer and easier to co-exist with than street people in other parts of the world IMO. The care in the community experiment failed here, just as it did everywhere. The BC Government has certainly fallen down in its obligation to recognize this and do something about it.


It certainly makes sense for you to hang on until you can get your citizenship, but maybe another part of Canada would suit you better. After that there is no law that says you HAVE to like living here, or anywhere else for that matter. Life is too short to be miserable if you can do something about it.

Anyway, congratulations for sticking it out for your (first?) three years.

Re: Three years !!
 

Actually, I do agree with a number of them, some more than others, and some are down to personal experience/perceptions, some I acknowledge but don’t care about, but certainly see the value of them on a forum for those that may; however, I have little time for whiners, everyone is allowed a vent or two, just think Mr BRIZZLE is overdrawn. I tell those I come into contact with if I think they are moaning too much, and I accept them to do the same. I see continual moaning as a human failing.

I think I’ve been pretty frank about the place. Life is a funny thing, and sometimes it just doesn’t fall into place, I found the same thing in the US, which I suspect is as much about where you are in your life at the time and what is going on in it, than the entirely where you are at the time. I’ve come to realize from being on BE that I never really gave the UK a good shake and my memories of the place are colored by having not being able to find decent work and living in what amounted to poverty. I feel a bit cheated actually. I miss family now more than I did before, a few have died, others born, sure have missed out on a lot.


You have to accept life or do something about it, moaning doesn’t help if, anything it just makes you more bitter and poisonous. I think I’m hypersensitive to it, given the negativity of my job.

On another note, after living in Coquitlam for 6 months myself, I concur with Kiwilass that at least some of his perceptions may be due to that. Vancouver proper is very, very different. Crap job and a house in Coquitlam, been there and done that, I would have left too. The winter rain while living there just about did me in. I liken it to living in the middle of a giant shopping mall, surrounded by few English speaking people. Nice enough place but nothing to do, very soulless. Very North American with the sprawl and dependence on the auto.

I too wish Mr Brizzle luck, life is a journey after all.

Re: Three years !!
 

I don't disagree with you. Though I thought his post was reasonably balanced considering. I couldn't really find fault with his negatives, however it's a matter of finding enough positives to outweigh them. He is clearly struggling with this.

Re: Three years !!
 

Yeah. We briefly lived in a new development in Burquitlam and while I knew I was unhappy there, I didn't realise how unhappy until we moved to where we are now, which is an older, established and much more lively area closer to DT. It has made all the difference. That's why I'm hoping Brizzle will move before he gives up on Van.

And I agree about the not moaning thing, though that's hard when you're depressed.

Re: Three years !!
 

Know it well. That was were Clifford Olson lived (close to Austin). In fact he grabbed one of his victims at Lougheed Mall.

Sad part about Vancouver is that it seems there are more bad areas to live than good. I mean bad in the boring, uninspiring sense, rather than unsafe. There's nothing particularly wrong with them and some of the newer developments have very nice homes, but not my cup of tea at all.

For me it's a short list of possibles:

All of the west side of Van and a few bits on the east side.

West and North Van

The Heights and Capitol Hill, in North Burnaby

White Rock / crescent beach (beach living)

I think that's about it....

One thing I agree on with Brizzle is how the over priced re has really spoiled the place for a lot of people, myself included. Its only about 10 years ago, my ex and I almost bought a massive, beautiful home in kits for 400,000... i shudder to think how much it would be now, I'm thinking 1.2 million at least. Ah well, at least I have my health:(

What is you think that defines these areas over others?

Re: Three years !!
 

no re regret allowed ;)

hmm.

I don't know north van/west van well at all, but they're both older burbs.

northeast van has a lot of appeal for me (hastings/sunrise, commercial, fraser etc). Older neighbourhoods built at the time of the streetcar rather than the automobile. older houses/wider variety. tend to be more walkable to shops, schools.

Same with the heights/cap hill - built up during the late 1800's early 1900's when it was really a part of Vancouver and on the tramline. Character craftsman homes, walkable, parks etc. Settled first by the english, then italians/croatians, (still very italian) now an influx of all kinds.

Same for kits/west side. They're old enough that they've seen different waves of immigration to make them interesting (all the greek touches in kits) and to be have built on a pattern of walkability rather than Must Have Car.


So I guess my argument would be the older the city/burb, the more appealing/lively it is. Which explains why southeast (and south) van are so generic by comparion, as they were built much later, even though south van is not a 'suburb' per se.

Coquitlam, burquitlam, delta - these were the 'burbs when it was trendy to escape the city in the 60's and 70's and have your young family. (OH's parents and most of his friends did this - left KErrisdale, Capitol Hill, east van.) You had your car, there wasn't the traffic there is now, it was the dream back then, bizarre as it seems now. You drove to your Safeway and everything was modern but it was built around the car, which inevitably made it less lively but allegedly 'safer' because real life was so far away.

Anyway. Totally rambling now and just made that up, but that's why in my opinion. I don't think it's a coincidence that the areas where they've tried to replicate the ideas of the early 1900's have become sought after in the burbs - like Newport Village in Port Moody.

Ever seen the 99 through Delta in the morning? the traffic. yikes.

Oh, and another thing...they're all coastal with great views/sea breezes. :-) Another reason South Burnaby/South Van etc. aren't as sought after.

I really like White rock too, have no idea about it's history....but from being there, again, villagey, walkable, lively, BEACH, not featureless urban development sprawl punctuated with huge big box stores and bisected by highways. That's gotta help.

Re: Three years !!
 

Good points...

Re: Three years !!
 

1. I think we scared Brizzle away from his own thread

2. I could have summed my post up in "older, coastal".

har.

Re: Three years !!
 

No, I just go AWOL for a few days sometimes. Thanks for some interesting posts. I do read the Straight/Tyee and agree that they are about the best on offer.

Agree with the suburbia thing. Trouble is that 'older/coastal' tend to be prohibitively expensive. Not so much if you're a single professional and renting, but a family who wants to buy are restricted by cost. Living in the 'Co' probably isn't helping much but the IL's are here (maybe that is a good reason to move!!). We did live in E.Van a while back and whilst the area around Commercial seems to have improved a little, back then there were too many unsavory types around and we got broken into as well.

I just think that if the wages/job opportunities were better and the cost of living wasn't was astronomical (think back 7-10yrs), I'd be a lot easier on the place. Because of the expense of living here, I find most the time that I can't justify staying here when I compare what I like and what I don't like.

Cheers.

Re: Three years !!
 

There has been a border crossing here since the 49th parallel was adopted as the border out west in 1846. You can still trace the original road, now called the Semiahmoo Trail, through back streets and footpaths. The site of the original customs house is now a gas station.

There have been farms in the area since pioneering times and one is preserved on the banks of the Nicomekl River.

White Rock started to develop when the railway came in 1908. A new station and customs post was established on what is not the beach front. As there was now a direct rail link with Vancouver and New West people started to buy up land and build summer cottages. Very few of these cottages remain, and the one that do have been updated, but the tiny lots they were on are still there and cause nightmares for the city.

There were two mills in the teens and twenties but these closed in the depression. However, there was an influx from the prairies in the 30's as people tried to escape the dust bowl that was the central plain. Those that could afford it went to Vancouver. Many that couldn't afford Vancouver prices came to White Rock.

White Rock was then a distant and neglected part of Surrey so didn't benefit from the planning that went on in North Surrey. A combination of cottage lots, poor immigrants with no cars, and planning neglect led to the higgledy piggledy development of the hillside that gives the place much of its charm today

Re: Three years !!
 

Just about sums it up really. Having been wiped out financially in a divorce, i no longer reap any of the benefits of having moved here 17 years ago. It is a very different place now. I had more buying power in my late twenties, earning far less than I do now.

If there's one thing that were to cause me to leave it would be the cost of living, or more precisely, the re costs, which are, as you rightly note, prohibitive. Crap tv etc, is just not on my radar and while i miss the pub sometimes, I don't miss how it tended to be the centre of the universe in the UK, and i don't drink much (have found some decent pubs in north van though - lots of brits over here)I am fortunate in that I make a good living and can make do with a smaller place, having no kids, so I'm able to choose between a bigger place further out or smaller closer in... i chose the latter.

Here ya go mr brizzle, you should get a chuckle out of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH3IIzpwEhk

Re: Three years !!
 

My what a brave post - how to ruffle a few turkey feather's eh? Anyway, just wanted to say BOB ON! My husband (Canadian) and I totally agree with you. He said he was the unhappest he has ever been in Vancouver. He spent two years in London and then had to go back 'home' and was beyond lonely. He remembers lots of miserable Kraft dinners and other people driving flash arse cars. He never felt like that in in London...although he did live with 5 trainee nurses!

Re: Three years !!
 

Cheers, 'tis pretty funny :)

Thanks, what's life without a bit of debate and controversy !!

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You forgot Steveston ;) Steveston was founded even before Vancouver existed. It has its own history and character, distinctly apart from Vancouver's or the rest of the Lower Mainland's. It's also mostly walkable with plenty of parks and waterfront. Of course, it's been within the past 8 years or so that gentrification has finally caught up, and now Steveston's full of...

... well, we won't go there. ;)

Re: Three years !!
 

Ah yes, I had an ex gf from there and appear to have blocked it out.

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:D

Re: Three years !!
 

It sounds like you need to get out of Vancouver! Doesnt take long to leave a lot of the Vancouver issues behind.
I lived in Victoria BC for a year last year and would I rather live there over London, Leeds, Manchester, Liverpool, Hull, Nottingham, Birmingham,...... Of course. I agree with some points mentioned but. In the UK right now there is massive unemployment, High Immigration and costs/taxes are high. Oh and gas for cars right now in the UK you can pay over 2 dollars. You want to buy Levis in the UK ok sir £80 Please ($130)
A bus from my house in the Uk to town return is Over £5 In Victoria I could go a long way on $2.20 and ride back on a transfer.

I agree there is little history compared to London. Problems with people on the street. Why not walk through Brixton, Hackney, Lambeth, Fulham at night and see the difference. Oh and grimy dirty pavements graffiti everywhere.
I could go on. The negatives on living on the westcoast of BC are not in my opinion outweighed by the positive.

Re: Three years !!
 

Yep, I don't think there are enough good reasons for me to live here to outweight any negatives.

I would say in response to your points, that unemployment, costs/taxes are at least the same here if not a little higher than in the UK. The economy is probably in better shape mind. Costs for things like petrol are evidently cheaper here, but second hand cars and insurance is way cheaper in the UK. Overall, probably not a lot in it. If you see high immigration as an issue for you in the UK, then why isn't it an issue for you in Canada, a country built on sustained high levels of immigration? Obviously there is more space here, but the vast majority of immigrants (me included!!) end up in Toronto, Van, Montreal anyway.

The difference with the street people is that here they are everywhere. I used to live in London, so yes there are plenty of street people begging etc, but they are not generally hassling everybody. If you go to dodgy area i.e Hackney, DTES then at least it shouldn't be a surprise, but this morning, on my run of mill commute, I got hassled for money/cigarettes by two people, plus one last night on the way home. This never, ever happened in London on such a regular basis.

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Just curious - where? Cos that's never happened to me? :confused: I mean, they ask, yes, but actually being hassled? I've never experienced that.

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Congratulations on getting to three years.

Hopefully your time out in Canada will improve for you :fingerscrossed:

If you could move within Canada, where would you like to move to?

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Mainly downtown, but anywhere really (noticed it more recently at Lougheed Town Centre). I consider it a hassle when people come up and ask you for change as opposed to just having a sign/begging bowl. But I've also had a few more aggressive types that either were persistant or gave verbal abuse when I said no. Also had a few give the sob story that ends with a request for money. Maybe they think I look generous :eek: They're wrong, I never give any money to these types. If I give any money it's going to be to genuinely needy people, like those in Haiti.

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Thanks. Not sure, I would like to check out GTA for jobs, or even the idea of semi-retiring (!) somewhere with cheap property like NB, NS, PEI has some appeal, unfortunately the distances for a reccy mean it's like flying from E. Canada to the UK.

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me neither - guess it comes down to what your definition of what amounts to being hassled.

I do notice the homeless here more than elsewhere, although out of Vancouver property. I don't really notice it that much.

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ah yes, the "crime train" makes the element mobile I'm afraid.

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I agree with some of your points made

Projected UK popilation is 71.6 Million by 2033, today it is at 62 Million people. The UK is the 51st densest country. Canada is 228th on that list with a shade under 34 million people in the second biggest country in the world.
I do like a bit more space and a few less people. There are lots of visitors and students coming to Canada and some Immigrants. In the UK they give £1million plus pound houses to immigrants in London and give them over 160 grand benefits a year to bigger families.

I dont agree with the way that the Government here is happy to help people more than the British. Also proven fact is that a lot of non UK workers have been given jobs when we are near 2 million in unemployment. I think if you saw the UK today it is different from 3 years ago.

The taxation in the UK is clearly higher 23.8% National Insurance and 17.5% VAT soon to rise again. Costs in Canada to me seemed to be better for most things.

I agree with the people on the street that annoys me too! is bad in Victoria where the weather is drier and milder then Van. I try not to take it to heart though. I have not had fireworks fired at me in canada nor been assaulted or burgled. Many of my friends have had something similar happen in different parts of the uk. I see people asking for change as not a massive problem and am not going to get harmed by it.

On the whole I see the argument against living in Canada as someone that would rather be back in the UK. There are negatives compared to living in an affluent or quieter part of the Uk. Also prices and other factors are different, but I notice the service seems better for what you pay for in Canada.

I would say living out of Vancouver would solve most of the issues you may not like. I think it is obviously personal preference and for me Canada clearly has a better quality of life across the board. The earning potential seems lower than say London in some areas but what you can aceive and get out of living in Canada for me seems unattainable in the UK.

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Bloody immigrants :thumbdown:

Unemployment is higher in Canada than the UK.

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Ah, I neglected to mention that I am a smoker, for my sins. That probably has something to do why I get hassled more than non-smokers. Already had someone swear at me today for not giving them a cigarette.