worklifebalance

Maybe things have changed since you last changed jobs because there is certainly a pattern emerging in responses I get from employers. Perhaps the employers have just discovered the loop hole. Certainly the US owned companies have.

dgagitw

I don't think things have changed much in the last 6 months and, even if they had, I would expect that maybe one of the many people I know in the IT business in Toronto might have mentioned it. I don't want to be too confrontational here, but there's no really nice way of saying this: you're coming across as having quite an attitude. You might want to consider whether that has more to do with why you got fired than a refusal to work 80 hour weeks.

worklifebalance

Even if I did have attitude which I deny, it would be entirely reasonable and expected for someone to have an attitude after working several 80 hour weeks in succession and being threatened with the sack if they don't. I have an attitude now to companies who make an offer requesting I work minimum hours way above normal hours - and that attitude is no thanks and I move on.

The fact the rules are as they are and they were campaigned to be that way by large companies says there are companies who want to abuse those laws. A simple search on google "IT Professionals overtime" should give you and your network some interesting reading.

Maybe I've been unlucky that I've found my first 2 jobs are from the abusive companies, and some of those who have interviewed have sent offers via email so it can be proven that a condition of acceptance is that I work a minimum 60 hours a week and only paid 37.5. I'm just stating fact printed on company headed paper or sent from company domain.

I am really pleased to hear your experience is different as that gives hope, but you can't judge everyone on your experience.

As for confrontational I'll give you an example from my 2nd job to show you who is confrontational.

Job 2 - Email Demand sent by manager Friday afternoon to work entire 48 hour weekend. Email sent to manager requesting not to work overtime at the weekend as attending family celebration and not forewarned of requirement. Email returned from manager stating "it is mandatory that all his team be available and in the office for the entire 48 hour weekend, longer if necessary", manager cc'ed HR. I declined stating I had already worked at least 60 hours a week for several previous and current week and had no notice that I was required for the weekend. Fired instantly by HR and owing holiday pay and bonus already earned withheld unless I sign agreement to say I will not take any action under Employment Standards Act and Human Rights Act. That sounds like the employer being confrontational not me. It is all in email so a document trail exists. Complaint to Ministry of Labour got me the owing holiday and bonus - who then extended investigation into an employer taking reprisal against an employee for investigating their rights under hours of work. The MOL have requested everything emails. contracts, record of employment etc

I can also show how my own personal cell phone logs/messages and email are filled with entries from both jobs out of hours requesting I get back to the office for often trivial tasks that could be done normal business hours. The companies involved have also been foolish enough to show on the Records of Employment the actual hours I worked.

Yes I have an attitude now, and that is to protect myself from similar companies.

magnumpi

How can it take so many hours to just turn off then turn on a computer ?

worklifebalance

For this company it took 12 to find the off switch, and then 48 hours to realise you use the same switch to turn it back on. I created a restart icon so everything could be complete in about 20 seconds but a new word only confused them.

Ironically the reference I used for this job works for same company in UK they can do the same job in 4 hours but here it is 2 whole days.

scrubbedexpat133

The single biggest problem is not the company but the individuals that bend to it.

No money no honey. I would suggest that you start a union and get every IT bod in town signed up. These large institutions have more than enough money to pay you a decent whack and cover overtime.

td2015

worklifebalance, can you please advise what area of IT you were working in, e.g. consultation, business/systems analysis, development, project management, general IT support, specific IT system support, network technician, hardware technician, etc? Also what are the kind of job titles and salaries (ballpark) being offered in your examples?

I ask all of the above from the perspective that 1) I 'work in IT' 2) I'm planning on moving to ON and 3) what you've described is pretty unappealing at face value.

worklifebalance

Change & Configuration Manager - but in general I found anyone in management or who supports development or test teams is expected to be available 24/7. Pattern is companies have offshore development and test teams but not management and support processes - Canadian team is expected to work for the whole world. I think you have to be very careful who you work for here and make sure you know the company set up - no offshoring etc. A good website for company reviews/salaries is glassdoor ca. Salaries are wildly different for my role anywhere from 40 to 120k is what I see quoted.

As said by a neighbour yesterday who is a development manager - some companies here target newcomers believing they are easy to bully into doing the jobs the Canadians don't want i.e. my job. The 2 companies I worked for both found me on linkedin - not me found them.

dbd33

Well, yes, but:

- it's easy enough to achieve that, just forward the company email to your phone

- it's not different than in other countries.

If you want a 9 to 5 job with no responsibilty when away from the desk then you'll have to work for the government whether in Canada, in the UK, or 'most anywhere else.

"Canadians", as in cradle Canadians, are all but irrelevant to the computer industry in the GTA, one hardly ever sees one.

Aviator

This is incorrect. All employees are covered by both employment standards and common law. Some industries, such as agriculture, forestry, fishing, HT etc. have some different provisions in the labour standards that are industry specific. https://www.labour.gov.bc.ca/esb/industries.htm

It is the same in Ontario.

Employees have to be remunerated for work done, but in some industries it is at basic rate with no extra for overtime. Excessive hours worked in regard to employees wellbeing apply to all industries.

Where a dispute arises that results in termination and the employee feels they were treated contrary to the act, they have the option of filing a complaint with the Labour Standards Board or using an employment lawyer.

Contractors are not covered by employment standards, however that is if they really are a 'contractor' under the regulations
http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/E/pub/tg/rc4110/

worklifebalance

You miss the point entirely or not had time to read the thread. If you read the thread you will see that I got fired for not working between 80 and 108 hours every week - not the odd week but every week. That's not asking for a 9 - 5 job, its basic humanity not to treat people that way. I've already said I would work extra hours and be available for emergencies etc. I've done the same job in UK, all over Europe, and the previous 4 years in Asia and never had to work this way before so it is very different to other countries. In other countries it has been rare to be called out - here it is so guaranteed that they wanted me in the office all that time. As for forwarding email to home, neither company because of security permitted it so you had to be in the office.

I'll reiterate I'm happy to work extra for urgent and emergency work, and chip in when the deadline is near etc. What I'm not happy about is the company I work for making cutbacks in their offshore and US teams to transfer the work back to me in Canada without giving me more resource so I have to work ridiculous hours - that is what's happening in my role and its legal to do it. Its why I decided to quit IT now I'm in Canada. We have already put other plans into action

worklifebalance

Sorry but you are completely wrong. I'm had discussions with Ontario Ministry of Labour and IT Professionals are exempt from hours of work, rest periods, and overtime pay amongst many other bits of the ESA. Ministry of Labour have confirmed that they can do nothing about the hours (and unpaid) I was asked to do, but they are taking action because they consider the company took reprisal by firing me when I requested fairer treatment. Because I began negotiating better conditions under the terms of the Employment Standards firing was not an option for them.

The act may say all employees are covered but then goes on to say IT Professionals and others are exempt when it is read in more detail.

dbd33

I read the thread. Your description of the working conditions in the industry were familiar to me only insofar as there are few computing jobs left that do not require some out of hours commitment.

worklifebalance

Some out of hours commitment is fine and to be expected but what I have highlighted goes way beyond that - 2 and 3 times normal full-time week every week. When an employer needs 24 hour around the world cover all year around they should employ at least 3 people/teams not fire 2. No other country would accept 365/24/7 working hence why global companies have assigned this work to Canada and nowhere else, it would not be accepted in UK, Europe, China, India, Thailand or any other place I've worked. All that is being achieved is people in those roles find something else to do as I have.

dbd33

I don't recognise that as being a common working practise in Ontario and I've been a contract programmer in numerous shops in and around the GTA (as well as in a number of other locations) since 1981. I don't think many people in this business routinely work more than 70 or so hours per week.

However, your references to legislation lead me to think that you've fundamentally misunderstood the nature of employment in the computer business in North America. It's not a business in which there's a need to be kind to staff; there are always more willing bodies. In consequence, the laws, the employment standards, the Ministry of this and that are, by and large, irrelevant. If the deal is that the worker is paid, for example, sixty bucks an hour then that $60 is the whole deal. Work an hour on a rainy Monday, $60. Work an hour on Christmas Day, $60. Don't work an hour, no $60.

Always remember that "permanent" jobs mean eight weeks notice, contract ones no notice and that you're disposable from either at whim. I work now with someone who took a permanent job after years of contracting for the "security" of the position only to be fired for having a heart attack (on his own time). I fired someone who wouldn't answer the phone while he was driving. I fired someone because he moved to that stupid GO train line where the trains only run a couple of times a day. The employer can dispose of anyone for any, or no, reason, so long as they're willing to pay for the notice period.

One might argue that being a computer person in Toronto is akin to being a child shoved up a Victorian chimney but, at least, it's simple. If you want employment standards, holiday pay, a scent free environment and respect for your feelings; then I'd have advised you to give up computing and get a qualification and a career, had you not already reached that conclusion.