UK reposession/foreclosure
Jun 30th 2009 | 6:55 am
#1
Thread Starter
Just Joined
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
UK reposession/foreclosure
Hi - I am living and working in Canada with a work permit, and shall soon secure permanent residency. I own a flat in the UK with an outstanding mortgage of 160k sterling. I am currently renting this property out and successfully paying my mortgage.
If in the future I am unable to pay my mortgage, and my house is repossessed by the bank, the bank will auction my property, and then sue me for the amount owing after the sale. My question is - can they successfully sue me whilst I live in Canada? Does anyone have any experience in this matter? Can my Canadian house be sold from under my feet? Will my Canadian credit be ruined?
I hope you can help, and also recommend a lawyer in Alberta who can help me further.
Thanks
If in the future I am unable to pay my mortgage, and my house is repossessed by the bank, the bank will auction my property, and then sue me for the amount owing after the sale. My question is - can they successfully sue me whilst I live in Canada? Does anyone have any experience in this matter? Can my Canadian house be sold from under my feet? Will my Canadian credit be ruined?
I hope you can help, and also recommend a lawyer in Alberta who can help me further.
Thanks
Jun 30th 2009 | 7:40 am
#2
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 4,480
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
You need legal advice. Try Alan Nielsen at (403) 232-9487.
Jun 30th 2009 | 10:33 am
#3
getting ready to apply!
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 32
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
(been a hot day :-)
Last edited by snowdemon; Jun 30th 2009 at 10:43 am.
Jun 30th 2009 | 3:49 pm
#4
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,404
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
I was worried about this also, but fortunately we managed to sell ours in the end, although at very little profit.
Did you take out Mortgage Protection (MIG) insurance with your mortgage? If so, the bank are insured against the scenario you mentioned. However, the insurance company are likely to pursue you for the shortfall if there is any.
That is of course if they know where to find you...
However, they have no legal powers to recover anything from you in Canada. Also, I doubt that you'd be in "debt" to the insurance company, because you never entered in to an agreement with them.
If you didnt have the MIG insurance, the bank are likely to pursue you... again if they know where you are, and of course, the size of the shortfall will dictate what lengths they're prepared to go to.
There is a reciprocal agreement between the UK and Canada with regards to CCJ's. However, my understanding (and you'll need to check, as I may be wrong) is that the agreement can only work if you were in the UK when the CCJ was served. ie/ if it's all done in your absence, there are no powers to enforce the CCJ in Canada.
None of this will have any effect on your canadian credit rating. However, if you're reposessed in the UK, you'll probably have to declare this on any canadian credit application, which is sure to affect the chances of you getting credit in the future.
I highly doubt a UK bank/debt collector (or whatever) would have the powers to sell your Canadian house. Anyways, wouldnt your Canadian house be mortgaged and so secured to someone else?
Did you take out Mortgage Protection (MIG) insurance with your mortgage? If so, the bank are insured against the scenario you mentioned. However, the insurance company are likely to pursue you for the shortfall if there is any.
That is of course if they know where to find you...
However, they have no legal powers to recover anything from you in Canada. Also, I doubt that you'd be in "debt" to the insurance company, because you never entered in to an agreement with them.
If you didnt have the MIG insurance, the bank are likely to pursue you... again if they know where you are, and of course, the size of the shortfall will dictate what lengths they're prepared to go to.
There is a reciprocal agreement between the UK and Canada with regards to CCJ's. However, my understanding (and you'll need to check, as I may be wrong) is that the agreement can only work if you were in the UK when the CCJ was served. ie/ if it's all done in your absence, there are no powers to enforce the CCJ in Canada.
None of this will have any effect on your canadian credit rating. However, if you're reposessed in the UK, you'll probably have to declare this on any canadian credit application, which is sure to affect the chances of you getting credit in the future.
I highly doubt a UK bank/debt collector (or whatever) would have the powers to sell your Canadian house. Anyways, wouldnt your Canadian house be mortgaged and so secured to someone else?
Jul 2nd 2009 | 12:16 pm
#5
Thread Starter
Just Joined
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 2
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
Some good information there - thanks. Anybody else have any experience or knowledge in this area?
Jul 2nd 2009 | 1:23 pm
#6
Banned
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 3,824
From: the GTA
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
The mortgagee in the UK will decide the cost effectiveness of registering a judgement against you in Canada for a UK debt. If the shortfall after foreclosure/sale is more than offset by hiring UK and Canadian lawyers then they would probably write it off. As legal costs are a moving target it would probably require to be a substantial sum/shortfall. I had cause to institute legal proceedings in the UK for the same situation occuring in Canada.
Jul 2nd 2009 | 1:26 pm
#7
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
The process is fairly simple. A court action for debt is issued against you in England, judgment is obtained and the judgment is then enforced in Canada. It is relatively simple and quick and, despite what others on here will tell you, it happens all the time.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
The above is a worst case scenario. Whether the English lender will take these steps depends upon how much money you owed.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
The above is a worst case scenario. Whether the English lender will take these steps depends upon how much money you owed.
Last edited by Almost Canadian; Jul 2nd 2009 at 1:43 pm.
Jul 2nd 2009 | 1:28 pm
#8
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
Costs of enforcement can be claimed as easily as the debt itself.
Jul 2nd 2009 | 2:13 pm
#9
Cynically amused.
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 3,648
From: BC
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
The process is fairly simple. A court action for debt is issued against you in England, judgment is obtained and the judgment is then enforced in Canada. It is relatively simple and quick and, despite what others on here will tell you, it happens all the time.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
The above is a worst case scenario. Whether the English lender will take these steps depends upon how much money you owed.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
The above is a worst case scenario. Whether the English lender will take these steps depends upon how much money you owed.
The MIG company have rights of subrogation.
Jul 2nd 2009 | 3:47 pm
#10
Pea Brain
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 6,005
From: TBD
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
Amex chased me aggressively for under GBP200 for a fraudulent transaction on my credit card, 2yrs after I moved to Canada. Don't expect to be able to avoid debt.
Jul 2nd 2009 | 4:24 pm
#11
Account Closed
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 2,404
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
The process is fairly simple. A court action for debt is issued against you in England, judgment is obtained and the judgment is then enforced in Canada. It is relatively simple and quick and, despite what others on here will tell you, it happens all the time.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
I used to do this regularly when I was a solicitor in England.
The judgment can be very easily enforced in Canada. It is simply a matter of turning the English judgment into a Canadian one. From there on in the same remedies that would be available to a Canadian creditor will be available to the English one. The rubbish about lack of service in Canada is rubbish. It's called personal service and only requires a process server to be able to locate you. There are lots of them in the phone book. Skip tracers should be able to locate you very easily. Unlike the UK, it is relatively easy (in Alberta at least and I am confident that other Provinces are the same) to locate people. It is possible to perform a demographic search to turn up peoples' whereabouts and, if that draws a blank, there are loads of skip tracers here.
The nonsense posted above about the failure of the insurance company to be able to pursue you is just that: nonsense.
If there is sufficient equity in your Canadian property, the English lender will, quite easily, be able to enforce any Canadian judgment against your Canadian property. With sufficient equity, the fact that there is a higher ranking secured creditor is irrelevant, as both will be paid out.
Here's the relevant bits of the Alberta legislation....
Order for registration
2(1) When a judgment has been given in a court in a reciprocating jurisdiction, the judgment creditor may apply to the Court of Queen’s Bench within 6 years after the date of the judgment to have the judgment registered in the Court, and on the application the Court may order the judgment to be registered accordingly.
(2) An order for registration under this Act may be made ex parte in any case in which the judgment debtor
(a) was personally served with process in the original action, or
(b) though not personally served, appeared or defended, or attorned or otherwise submitted to the jurisdiction of the original court,
.
.
.
(6) No order for registration shall be made if it is shown by the judgment debtor to the Court that
(a) the original court acted either
(i) without jurisdiction under the conflict of laws rules of the Court, or
(ii) without authority under the law of the original court to adjudicate concerning the cause of action or subject‑matter that resulted in the alleged judgment or concerning the person of the alleged judgment debtor,
or without that jurisdiction and without that authority,
(b) the judgment debtor, being a person who was neither carrying on business nor ordinarily resident within the jurisdiction of the original court, did not voluntarily appear or otherwise submit during the proceedings to the jurisdiction of that court,
(c) the judgment debtor, being the defendant in the proceedings, was not duly served with the process of the original court and did not appear, notwithstanding that the judgment debtor was ordinarily resident or was carrying on business within the jurisdiction of that court or agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of that court,
Jul 3rd 2009 | 2:19 am
#12
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 13,402
From: South of Calgary
Re: UK reposession/foreclosure
It's great that you used to be a solicitor in the UK, but enforcing a UK CCJ in Canada is subject to Canadian, not English laws. In addition, each province has their own law and I'm pretty sure Quebec has no such law.
Here's the relevant bits of the Alberta legislation....
Order for registration
2(1) When a judgment has been given in a court in a reciprocating jurisdiction, the judgment creditor may apply to the Court of Queen’s Bench within 6 years after the date of the judgment to have the judgment registered in the Court, and on the application the Court may order the judgment to be registered accordingly.
(2) An order for registration under this Act may be made ex parte in any case in which the judgment debtor
(a) was personally served with process in the original action, or
(b) though not personally served, appeared or defended, or attorned or otherwise submitted to the jurisdiction of the original court,
.
.
.
(6) No order for registration shall be made if it is shown by the judgment debtor to the Court that
(a) the original court acted either
(i) without jurisdiction under the conflict of laws rules of the Court, or
(ii) without authority under the law of the original court to adjudicate concerning the cause of action or subject‑matter that resulted in the alleged judgment or concerning the person of the alleged judgment debtor,
or without that jurisdiction and without that authority,
(b) the judgment debtor, being a person who was neither carrying on business nor ordinarily resident within the jurisdiction of the original court, did not voluntarily appear or otherwise submit during the proceedings to the jurisdiction of that court,
(c) the judgment debtor, being the defendant in the proceedings, was not duly served with the process of the original court and did not appear, notwithstanding that the judgment debtor was ordinarily resident or was carrying on business within the jurisdiction of that court or agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of that court,
Here's the relevant bits of the Alberta legislation....
Order for registration
2(1) When a judgment has been given in a court in a reciprocating jurisdiction, the judgment creditor may apply to the Court of Queen’s Bench within 6 years after the date of the judgment to have the judgment registered in the Court, and on the application the Court may order the judgment to be registered accordingly.
(2) An order for registration under this Act may be made ex parte in any case in which the judgment debtor
(a) was personally served with process in the original action, or
(b) though not personally served, appeared or defended, or attorned or otherwise submitted to the jurisdiction of the original court,
.
.
.
(6) No order for registration shall be made if it is shown by the judgment debtor to the Court that
(a) the original court acted either
(i) without jurisdiction under the conflict of laws rules of the Court, or
(ii) without authority under the law of the original court to adjudicate concerning the cause of action or subject‑matter that resulted in the alleged judgment or concerning the person of the alleged judgment debtor,
or without that jurisdiction and without that authority,
(b) the judgment debtor, being a person who was neither carrying on business nor ordinarily resident within the jurisdiction of the original court, did not voluntarily appear or otherwise submit during the proceedings to the jurisdiction of that court,
(c) the judgment debtor, being the defendant in the proceedings, was not duly served with the process of the original court and did not appear, notwithstanding that the judgment debtor was ordinarily resident or was carrying on business within the jurisdiction of that court or agreed to submit to the jurisdiction of that court,
The OP was asking about Alberta - what has Quebec got to do with that?
I will, of course, defer to your greater knowledge. The "law" you have quoted is helpful, but is not the full story. Section 2(2) of what you have quoted, only deals with an ex parte application, so is no help if the debtor is served and the application proceeds on notice.
You omitted section 2(5) which states:
In a case to which subsection (2) does not apply, any notice of the application for the order that is required by the Alberta Rules of Court or as the Court considers sufficient shall be given to the judgment debtor.
And section 2(6) merely deals with service and it needs to be read in its entirety. As I pointed out about, personally serving the debtor in Canada will ensure that the "transfer" of the judgment to Canada will be very straightforward. I have obtained hundreds of these orders. Please tell me, how many have you successfully defended?
