special needs education
 

Hi guys, getting the hang of this now. Currently in Dundee Scotland, huge opportunity for my husband to transfer to Waterloo. Still a few things we need to figure out before we decide.

My son, aged 5, is diagnosed as being on the Autistic Spectrum. Currently in P1 mianstream school here, with special support. Doing very well, but will continue to need educational support.

Where do I start???????? Suport networks available??????Registering at school????Would he still be in mainstream or would he need to attend a special school????Do I just get letters from all his support workers and Doctors and visit the schools in the area???More to the point can Canada handle us

Advice greatly appreciated.
Fae Bonnie Dundee

Re: special needs education
 

Hi Vonny

That won't be a problem. If he is in mainstream schooling now, he will very likely be in mainstream schooling over here. Just make sure you bring all the assessments etc. so that he can get the extra support he needs asap.

You could always phone up a few possible schools and see what kind of reaction/info you get. The principal should be able to answer all your questions, but if you need further answers, ask to speak to the SERT (Special Education Resource Teacher).

Good luck,

Chris

Re: special needs education
 

I suppose it depends if this is DSM IV Autism or Yuppie Autism.

I have a daughter who is nineteen and is a low functioning non-verbal autistic. Based on out experiences with her and the education system in Ontario I would have to say that this advice is completely and dangerously inacccurate. To start with, I think it unlikely that immigration will allow the child to come to Canada. I think people who have expensive permanent medical conditions are specific excluded. If you can come as a family I don't think you'll find school boards will welcome an expensive and potentially disruptive student with open arms; you'll have to beg, cheat and steal to find a place and the place may be inconvenient; my daughter currently commutes to hers by taxi, the fare is $156/day.

If, on the other hand, being "on the spectrum" just means that the child is a bit bratty then it's less of an issue but it's not autism.

Re: special needs education
 

God you make me cross. How dare you say her son may be just a bit bratty and isn't autistic? Surely she should know. If you can't give helpful advice then don't bother.

Re: special needs education
 

I have read dbd's response a few times, and I cannot find a place in which he said that the original poster's son wasn't autistic.

Re: special needs education
 

After nearly twenty years of exposure to people who are "on the spectrum" I think I'm well placed to know that not all people so described meet the criteria in the DSM IV. Autism is a completely disabling condition, there are no formerly autistic people and no autistic people, with the possible exception of Temple Grandin, who can communicate at anything more than the most basic level. The level of communication possible between an ordinary person and someone who has autism is at the level of a person and a cat. The person understands some of what the cat does and may have some influence over the cat's behavior but the person cannot negotiate with the cat and the cat does not conceive that the person has an opinion, never mind considering behaving to influence that opinion.

That's autism.

The "autistic spectrum", on the other hand, encompasses the "sitting in the corner banging the head" autistic person at the one extreme and the two year old who won't sit still at the other. Spectrum disorders are a murky world, there's a lot of money at stake in dealing with them and there's also prestige involved. There are an incredible number of con artists in the world of spectrum disorders and almost any child will be diagnosed as having such a disorder if there's a buck in it. For a primer look at www.quackwatch.org or search on Kaufmann + autism. There's also a great deal of politics involved, obviously people who are dealing with autism resent government money being used for the benefit of people they don't consider disabled.

I use the term Yuppie Autism to describe the perception of rich parents that their child has a disorder when, were the child poor, the "disorder" would be considered part of normal life; things like having an imaginary friend, or some twirling of a favourite object. The sort of parents who cause autism clusters to match demographics (Silicon Valley being the obvious example).

I think telling someone who is considering emigration that autism is a red flag for the Canadian authorities is useful advice. As for a mother knowing that a child is autistic I don't think that need be the case, professionals often can't decide if even extreme case are autism or some other syndrome.

Re: special needs education
 

Haven't heard the term 'Yuppie Autism' before but it brought a smile to my face. I can understand your cynicism though, in this day and age it is true to say that many people are indeed jumping on the bandwagon so to speak. However I did not mean to upset anyone, or in anyway trivialise what I see as a very complex and misunderstood condition. Yes my son IS Autistic. As I previously explained he is in mainstream school. He is 'HIGH' functioning, if there is such a term, and can communicate very well, he is in no way 'disruptive' or 'bratty', and is a very likable little boy, with very specific difficulties, ADHD, NOT being one of them. I'm sure to someone who has a child with low functioning autism that I may appear to be somehow 'better off', but in my experience, this can work against him, with some narrow minded individuals, thinking that we are crying wolf. Inevitably this usually means fighting very hard, with the full support of our Doctors, to obtain all the help and support to which my son is entitled and needs. To that end however, at least I am experienced enough to, as you suggest, fight,beg,and steal. I see no reason why he can't contine to do well in mainstream either here or in Canada. May I ask, was your daughter diagnosed in Canada, or was the diagnosis given in the UK. What sort of support network, aside from school, do you have over there to help you and the family cope. Many thanks for everyones comments, very much appreciated. Watch this space and I will let you know if indeed they do 'let my son into the country.' If nothing else it may help others in my situation.

Re: special needs education
 

<aims for brevity>

My daughter was born here, in Ontario, and so is eligible for the gamut of services from A to, well, A. If she were to move provinces she would lose these benefits. At one year the doctors decided she was autistic but wouldn't make that a formal diagnosis "it's a death sentence, no one will treat her for anything else" they said, at Sick Kids. We knew at that time that early intervention was critical so we took her all over the place, Phildelphia, La Jolla, some place in Germany, Boston, no one knew what to do. Today, early intervention is still said to be critical and still no one knows what to do.

The school situation for her has been rather good but only due to happenstance. We have two older children and, through them, the school principal heard of the autistic one, he approached us. He had a large budget for disabled children but no disabled children so she could have most anything, two full time TAs, a Snoozelen room, therapy balls, yadda, yadda. This came about not because Ontario has money but because the school system is bizarre. There are four state funded school boards and they get special needs funding according to the ratio of special needs students in one board. Our daughter happened to be classified under another board and there weren't any other nominally Catholic, nominally francophone, disabled children starting that year.

The lesson here is that Canada is massively bureaucratic, if you have the time and persistence to work the system, become Catholic, become French, or whatever the government currently wants, and lots is available. Don't work the system and you're doomed. There's an excellent state funded school for disabled children in suburban Toronto complete with a kitchen and car wash for work experience but to get in you have to either be connected or put your child's name down before birth.

I'm not aware of any support networks within our budget. Most of the autism related groups here have a connection to a commercial service or "cure", there's an association for people who hang their children upside down (called AND), one for facilitated communication, one linked to Andrew Wakefield the disgraced, and disgraceful, former doctor from the UK and many connected to herbal remedies. They're all a bit dodgy. I did use to post on a Toronto based autism talkboard run by the Geneva Center but it went subscription only.

Services and benefits we do use are :

- "looney day" at the trampoline club. On Sunday mornings the warehouse full of trampolines is turned over to an army of kids who are on the spectrum. The music is loud, the lights flash, hundreds of children are gleeful, it's no place to take a hangover.

- federal government tax credit. (Each year they ask for proof that the child is "still permanently disabled".)

- Ontario government respite program. Parent signs that third party looked after child, goverment pays third party just above minimum wage. This is a good deal all around if you're the parent of one disabled child and provide respite to a couple of others. At least, it is, if you have a backyard, a trampoline and a paddling pool.

One thing I have to say is pleasing about North America is that in all the years of traveling and eating out I recall one really nasty comment and one instance of being refused admission to a place on account of being with an autistic person. I think that's an impressive level of acceptance. Often people even step up with informed comments about autism or disabilities in general. (Please note that while I was delighted when that restaurant, the Wave on Queen St E in Toronto, burned down, I didn't torch it.)

Re: special needs education
 

I think you'll find that my advice was to talk to possible schools in the area that Vonny is planning on moving to - hardly dangerous!

Re: special needs education
 

Well we are Catholic, so that could be a plus. French - No, but I do look good in a beret. Well thanks for the info, as I say nothing is decided yet, we won't decide until we have all of the information we need, particularly concerning my son. We will be coming over again and at that stage, aswell as looking at houses and areas, we will be visiting schools, I have a 10 year old daughter too. Only then will we make a decision.

Re: special needs education
 

If I can ask...where would you say Asperger's Syndrome fall on the autism spectrum? My (almost 9 year old) nephew keeps getting diagnosed as having Asperger's, then having it recanted, then being diagnosed again, seemingly in tune with when his school are applying for special grants for special needs kids. He can communicate very well, but pretty much since babyhood does not make eye contact, and has a lot of difficulty socialising. Of course, this could also be down to the environment in which he is raised (no siblings, no real contact with other children until he started school, etc.)

Re: special needs education
 

That could be indicative of a number of issues - has anyone looked at other possibilities or are they all stuck on the Aspergers syndrome.

Re: special needs education
 

As I understand it, Asperger's overlaps the high end of the Autism Spectrum.

Re: special needs education
 

You said "That won't be a problem."

I suggest that it will be a very large problem both in terms of qualifying to move to Canada and in terms of finding a school board willing to take on either of the children. "Dangerous" might be a bit strong but there's certainly a risk of raising false hope.

Vonny, there's a good Catholic school in Hamilton that has an integrated program, I don't have the name here but it would be possible to work in Waterloo and have children attending school there.

Re: special needs education
 

Thanks for that, I'll look into that, not sure where Hamilton is in relation to waterloo, geography isn't my strongest point, even over here in the UK, or my own hometown for that matter. If you could at some stage get the name for me it would be much appreciated.

On the point of Aspergers ; is not one of the predominant characteristics an obsession with a particular subject, or reluctance to talk about or involve themselves with anything other than that subject, basically their life revolves around it. Certainly it is seen to be on higher end of the spectrum. My son displays this characteristic, but I was told by his consultant that he is too young to diagnose Apergers.

Re: special needs education
 

Perhaps I should have said that it 'shouldn't' be a problem rather than it 'wouldn't' be a problem. Based on the fact that Vonny's son is coping well in mainstream education with special support, I would think that he will be able to do the same thing here. Being on the Autistic spectrum can mean very different things and can be mild or severe. If Vonny's son had severe difficulties, he would probably be in a special school in Scotland and wouldn't be coping in mainstream education.

In Ontario, students with special education are included in mainstream schooling as much as possible unless their condition is deemed to need the extra support that only a special school can provide.

As Vonny has said, they intend to investigate the situation fully before deciding on whether to move to Canada.

Re: special needs education
 

Shouldn't in an ideal world, perhaps. Based on his special support I would expect the immigration authorities to turn him down flat. As a tax payer I take an ambivalent view of that.

I don't know about Scotland but, in Ontario, he could be a vegetable and they'd just prop him up at the back of the classroom and call it coping. Being "integrated" means nothing at all, not even that the child can use a toilet/bathroom/restroom or eat without help.

Or, in the real world, parents though encouraged to remove their disabled children from Ontario schools, can force the school board to provide a place unless the board can demonstrate that the child is disruptive. The school board is obliged to provide a place until the age of 21, though one will likely have to litigate to make it happen.

Very sensible. I suggest that the child will benefit from more state support if thay stay where they are. There may, however, be all manner of good reasons to move outweighing what I can only think will be a negative impact on the child.

Re: special needs education
 

Not to doubt for a moment what you are suggesting, but why are you so sure the state support over here is so much better. I can understand that you are dissillusioned by the system over there, but having been over there for so long how can you compare it to a system that you have had no involvement in, just interested. Certainly wouldn't be doing anything that would have a negative impact on my son, and without full investigation, it's hard to say at this stage if that would be the case. I think alot of it has to do with the sort of individual you are and what lengths and efforts you are prepared to go for the positive aspects in life. I agree with Tom, it shouldn't be a problem, but it will be if I am prepared to take no for an answer and don't do my homework properly.

Re: special needs education
 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to be assusming that Vonny's son is severly autistic which doesn't appear to be the case. It sounds as if you have had a very hard time fighting for your daughter's rights based on your description of the school system in Ontario. Understandably you feel very passionately about this subject due to your own experiences with your daughter.

Re: special needs education
 

Vonny, until now most of the discussion has focused on what kind of support the school system in Waterloo or a nearby community would or would not be able to provide your son.

Dbd has raised an issue that I think is relevant, and that is whether or not Citizenship and Immigration Canada (CIC) will admit your family into Canada for residence purposes.

If a person is applying for a work permit or for permanent residence as a skilled worker, and if their case is straightforward, I usually tell them that my husband successfully applied on his own, and there is no need to hire an immigration consultant. If a person wants to apply as a business class applicant, however, or if a member of his or her family has a medical condition, things can get complicated. In that case I think there is merit in using the services of an immigration consultant. In your case I think there would be value in asking a knowledgeable and experienced immigration consultant for his/her opinion of what your chances of acceptance are.

Given that the application process is not cheap, paying for a qualified opinion up front may be money well spent. There are immigration consultants who participate on this forum, usually in the Canada Immigration section of the forum.

In fact, the Canada Immigration section would be a good place to ask your question about your chances of being accepted. However, the Canada Lifestyle & Culture section is a good place to have asked your question about schooling and other facilities in the community.

All the best.

Edited to add that I've now noticed from your previous threads that your husband has been offered a transfer. Perhaps his employer will pay for the CIC application process. Regardless of whether your husband's employer will pay or whether your and your husband will pay, I still think there is merit in securing a professional opinion about your chances of acceptance.

Re: special needs education
 

I'm not arguing that there's better support in the UK, I have a friend who works with autistic children in London and, from what I can tell the situation is about equal to that in Canada. That is, it's about equal for people who have always lived in each country. I think though that a newcomer is (rightly?) disadvantaged compared to an established person and that in terms of benefits, if you move you lose, regardless of the direction of the move.

I don't know if you son if classically autistic in being disrupted by changes to his routine, my daughter isn't at all, but if he is, that's another factor.

I wouldn't say that I'm disillusioned, btw, the government didn't create the child, I did, and it's certainly open to debate whether or not the taxpayer should be expected to fund any sort of special education.

Re: special needs education
 

Thanks Judy, it's certainly an issue that we will have to discuss with his employer. I take it then that an individual is 'disabled' , to use the term loosely, then in general you have great difficulty in being accepted as a resident, temporary or otherwise. As you say I should probably take this issue up with imigration. At least I've discovered what my first problem might be early on in research, thanks to you guys.

Re: special needs education
 

I do not feel very passionate. I am English.

Re: special needs education
 

I was being polite. I am Scottish.

Re: special needs education
 

Well you're wrong on a couple of points :

- I assume nothing about vonny's son but I don't think she should use the term "autism" in discussing matters with immigration. They are likely to think a little bit autistic is like a little bit pregnant.

- I have not had a hard time over schooling, see above, it all just fell into place. This I know to be atypical.

- I'm not that passionate about matters related to children, dbd is a contraction of deadbeat dad. I'm semi-detached at best.

I know you work in the school system but there's really no need to pat me on the head.

Re: special needs education
 

hi
this is Steve's wife I'm Canadian i grew up there 34 years and i lived in a small town we had a separate school but it lost funds and was closed so all the kids there were put into public school the school system is different kind of in every county so in simco and gray county we had are classes divided so the teacher could help each student separately also we had student helpers kids from the high school who want to be teachers came to the school and sat with a student and helped them with their work
we had a child like your son but he was ok in class at that time it was not known what it was called but he had all the help the school could give him and also the district health unit helps out in your home to keep him going through the summer months we have almost 9 wks off so its just to keep them going also my son had my grade 5 teacher as a helper she was retired but stayed in the school to help out.

Re: special needs education
 

quote "I take it then that an individual is 'disabled' , to use the term loosely, then in general you have great difficulty in being accepted as a resident, temporary or otherwise. "


Not along the autism track but on 'disabled' I spoke to CHC at Sandown asking about my being severely hard of hearing. they said they dont exclude on disability alone- its not allowed, but the same medical rules apply, if you are likely to put an extra burden on the state then they may well refuse entry. In my case as i am working then they will accept me. Maybe if you extrapolate this criterion to your case.


otherwise , good luck!

Re: special needs education
 

I believe there are a couple of high profile cases going thought the courts at the moment with regards to handicapped children and immigration.

I don't have any direct references but I do remember one involved a South African millionaire, and another I think was a Dutch religious group.

It may be worth having a read up on what is/was involved in this, it did point out that CIC review this area as very cut and dried Black and white.

Re: special needs education
 

sheesh - what a minefield eh?? Thanks again for the info. posted a thread on immigration but so far have heard nothing. I'll keep you posted.Steve's wife and batty x-ray, I ain't speaking to the other two until you stop arguing.(only joking)

Re: special needs education
 

Hi there
I would just like to offer a little advice from my own personal experiences.
I lost my little girl 3 years ago. She was severly disabled and complex medical needs. I Knew that i could never move to Canada as she would be classed as a drain on resourses. I was told i would have to proove that i had sufficient funding to cover all her medical and social needs. I know this is to the extreme as her needs were complex but it is an example.

I am here now and i work with special needs. I am a nanny for special needs and things are not so simple to access here. I took the social services and HS service for granted when in the UK. It is not until you actually get here, do you actually realise the expense of things. Medication etc.
I am also here on a works visa and in the process of applying for my PR. Until i get my status here i am not entitled to any help at all.
On the other hand there is some excellent resourses for special needs. In the local school system.
Where area are you planning to move to?
Some people come with good package deals from companys but they do not cover all expenses.
I love canada and i am sure you will also. I am not in any way trying to put you off. I am only trying to be realistic about your future. It would be heartbreaking to get so far and then find you can't come after all.
i hope this was not too hard on you. Only trying to be realistic.
take care :)

Re: special needs education
 

Realistic is exactly what I'm looking for. Little point in being anything else. The Waterloo area. Not sure yet what the company package will be, haven't got that far yet.

Re: special needs education
 

I can't seem to post search results but a quick search of the Immigration forum for "autistic" shows a couple of interesting threads (and some irrelevant ones).

One poster says a friend's child passed the medical and another poster says they were refused.

Re: special needs education
 

thanks for that Biiiiink, I'll check that out today.

Re: special needs education
 

<stops arguing>

babyblue's comment about the high costs of medicine is an important point. In the most expensive year we spent $36,000 on heath related matters. OK, we have no insurance and that was slightly inflated for the tax return (we got the dental prebilled) but it's what I claimed and it passed an audit. Killer items are travel to remote hospitals and accomodation near them, lost income while gone and, in the case of accident prone children, surgical appliances. I just came across a bill for a $3,000 ankle brace from ten years ago. Autistic children are prone to injury, when throwing tantrums or just because they like to bang their heads, and so the miscellaneous costs can quickly mount up. I would think it to be of paramount importance that one of you get a job with benefits, that or one of you gets a job that pays shitloads of money.

Re: special needs education
 

Something of possible interest here :

Immigration policy document from: Canadian Public Policy - Analyse de Politiques, Vol. XXVI, No. 1 2000: http://www.yorku.ca
Refers to the Immigration Act, section 19a which states that immigration will not be allowed for families with a member who has a medical condition that may result in higher usage of the health care system than the average Canadian.

This is from :

http://www.autismsocietycanada.ca/li...s/index_e.html

Re: special needs education
 

Unpromising notes from the doctor's guide to filling in the medical bit of immigration forms :

Question 16: AUTISM, DEVELOPMENTAL DELAY, etc.

If there is a history of autism, mental retardation or developmental delay, and if the applicant is NOT excessive demand exempt, provide a specialist’s report, from a pediatrician and/or clinical psychologist as appropriate, to describe:

developmental history,
psychometric testing including IQ testing and assessment of adaptive skills, associated behaviour disorders,
specific diagnosis,
school, vocational training, and/or work records,
current and future treatment requirements / recommendations for speech therapy, occupational therapy, physical therapy, special education, or vocational training,
current and future need for ongoing supervision or institutional care.
If there is a history of senility or dementia interfering with the applicant’s activities of daily living and if the applicant is NOT excessive demand exempt, provide a complete assessment to include:

duration and rate of progression of symptoms,
diagnostic evaluation,
treatment and management requirements, and
a completed Mini Mental Status Questionnaire.
If the applicant is illiterate, and is NOT excessive demand exempt, then describe:

the applicant’s current adaptive life-skills,
the applicant’s capacity to communicate orally and through print,
the applicant’s counting skills and ability to use money,
etiology of the illiteracy to include whether there is evidence of mental retardation or a learning disability, with results of psychometric tests,
whether vocational training is required, and
whether the applicant has any other condition or disability that would prevent or impair the applicant’s ability to lead an independent life.
See:

Appendix X – Adult’s Global Assessment of Functioning Scale (GAF)
Appendix XI – Assessment of Activities of Daily Living
Appendix XII – The Mini Mental State Examination

That's here :

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/dmp...pendix-09.html

It'd be interesting to find out what "excessive demand exempt" is all about. It'd also be interesting to know why Canadians assume anyone reading text is so weak in comprehension as to need every "not" shouted at them.

Re: special needs education
 

Isn't that an exemption for sponsored spouses/common-law partners, and possibly dependent children of PRs but don't quote me on the children bit?

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I'd guess that it's a lot more specific than any spouse/partner but, I dunno, we gave up on the forms and hired a lawyer for a simpler case than this one.

Re: special needs education
 

Seems not - a bit irrelevant to the OP as a non-sponsor but IRPA says this about "excessive demand":-



38. (1) A foreign national is inadmissible on health grounds if their health condition

(a) is likely to be a danger to public health;

(b) is likely to be a danger to public safety; or

(c) might reasonably be expected to cause excessive demand on health or social services.

Exception

(2) Paragraph (1)(c) does not apply in the case of a foreign national who

(a) has been determined to be a member of the family class and to be the spouse, common-law partner or child of a sponsor within the meaning of the regulations;

(b) has applied for a permanent resident visa as a Convention refugee or a person in similar circumstances;

(c) is a protected person; or

(d) is, where prescribed by the regulations, the spouse, common-law partner, child or other family member of a foreign national referred to in any of paragraphs (a) to (c).



http://laws.justice.gc.ca/en/I-2.5/64755.html

Re: special needs education
 

Would vonny's husband be her sponsor or does "sponsor" here mean someone already in Canada who will bear financial responsibilty for the immigrants ?