Rob4BC

Well done Judy. I grew up in South Africa and lived in the UK for 14 years. IMHO you got it spot on.

Rob.

Almost Canadian

Did you not find that in England as well?

On the lawyer thing, no-one cared about the fact that I was a lawyer in England, it was just another job....

However, in Canada, the opposite is true, I never experienced the "instant deference" that I am given here by Canadians, in England.

I think most of us are talking about the historical class system in England, something that, in my opinion, just doesn't exist today.

When Mrs Miggins talked about accents, I would respond by saying that someone from Newfoundland would experience exactly the same thing in Alberta.

I do not speak with a Etonian type accent, and I knew lots of lawyers in England that spoke with typical Scouse or Newcastle accents. Because they were articulate and intelligent, no-one thought any less of them because of the way they spoke just like, if some "Nice but dim Tim" type walked into the room and opened his/her mouth, everyone realised within a minute or two what they really were and reacted accordingly.

As I said earlier, in my experience the "class issue" in England was limited solely to Pringle wearing, Volvo drivers.

mclauchlan35

Good Job, Judy

dbd33

I think this post misses the essence of the British class system, both a neuro-scientist and a plumber are in trade. I happen to know a British neuro-scientist here, in Toronto, and am quite sure that his parents were the sort of people who purchased their furniture. One might say that one is middle class and the other working class but given the miserly stipend paid to research scientists and the handsome wages brought in by plumbers I'd be at a loss to say which is which.

I think there is a class system in Canada; Lord Black of Crossharbour reached the pinnacle when he moved to England. I don't understand it as I don't have cause to have much contact with the unhyphenated but I think they have means of ranking each other independent of income; that's why people who went to Queen's constantly advise the world that they went to Queen's.

Steve_P

I don't disagree with you as far a a Canadian class system, it's there just not as overt as in the UK.

As for our good buddy Conrad, in order to become a Lord he had to move to the UK and give up his Canadian citizenship.

fledermaus

I like your article Judy. I think it sums up my experience of "class" in Canada.

The important thing to me is that in Canada you can move between classes more easily. You aren't defined by where you come from or by your occupation, which is very often the case in Britain.

My experience of the British class system has shown me that the posher people are the less they care about what you do or how you talk. (As long as you aren't going to marry into their family). I have worked with old school doctors who generally spoke to nurses, radiographers, etc as if we were servants. This was evident in their assumption that they can call me by my first name without me inviting them to, and yet expect me to call them by their title and surname. The younger breed of doctors is different, but they tend to come from more normal backgrounds. It's still unusual for doctors and other ranks to be friends, to socialise out of work. Those doctors who do regard the other ranks as friends tend to be of non British background.

In Britain it usually isnt long before someone asks what you do for a living, or about your family background, your people. Here it's rarely asked, sometimes people dont actually know what their friends do.

I was interested in your comment on professors. At my college in Ontario the teachers referred to themselves as professors. They werent a head of a school, or had their own chair, so I thought that this was the case for Canada. Maybe it's just an Ontario thing?

lof

francophone influence? in some of the french speaking areas in europe (at least the ones i have connections deep enough to give me an insight into the school system) teachers on secondary levels are called "professeur" even if they have not an according title.

fledermaus

Doctors in Canada are on piecework, paid by the number of customers they see. This makes them common...

The idea of class and being a professional, (ie someone who isn't an employee with a wage, but someone who has clients referred to them and who can bill those clients for services rendered.) put the kibbosh on both the NHS and the Canadian system. In Saskatechewan the doctors went on strike rather than sign up to be employees of the state in Tommy Douglas' Medicare system. In Britain they only joined the NHS on provided they had time to see private patients and so maintain that elitism.

fledermaus

Yes, I wondered if that was the case.

ireland2canada

I find that many people have a hugely over-inflated view of themselves simply because of the profession they are in. I cannot bear it when people qualify themselves by the job that they have....it's just a job! I don't give a damn if someone is a doctor/scientist/teacher/astronaut - that is the job that you do, not who you are.

I work as admin staff in a university, and have to put up with bone-jarringly patronising people sometimes. Some lecturers & academics are lovely, down to earth folks who come into our office for a bit of banter. Generally these are the people who have worked their way up from the bottom. Professors, deans, associate deans - for the most part their heads are completely up their own arse. And it makes me smile to myself, that they work for a living just like me, only they are too full of self induced importance to see it.

I don't give a damn how people view me, but it would be great if Canada was less 'nose-in-the-air' when it comes to occupation & wealth.

MB-Realtor

Perhaps I saw more of the Class system due to the type of people I had to deal with when I was in the printing industry in the UK.

Newmarket Horse Racing Stud Owners, we used to print "Stud Books" these were very small run but highly priced publications, leather bound, gold embossed sort of things, so I had to deal with the owners themselves.

Cambridge University College types.

Hospitals, dealing with the Consultants.

Possibly the most class orientated people in the World.

fledermaus

I know that area. Six Mile Bottom. Fulbourn etc?

dbd33

I don't much deal with Canadians but the status of doctors in the US class system is interesting. My partner's step-father is a hospital doctor, he works for the VA (the world's largest system of socialised medicine) and, within their town, would be seen as an average sort of worker were he not an active lobbyist for the Democrats in a solidly Republican district. Socially he's a bit shunned as a pinko. By contrast, the father of my eldest daughter's boyfriend is head of orthopeadic surgery at a well known clinic in Minnesota, he's as close to being American royalty as a non-Kennedy can be. As someone who makes a million dollars a year he can hold any sort of political view without offending the neighbours.

That someone has an MD tells you dick about them, it's a bit like knowing that someone has a Phd or, indeed, what colour car they like to have.

fledermaus

Indeed, its not what you have, it's what you do with it that counts.

What the MD says also depends on the country. A British MD is a doctorate degree, PhD level. A USA or Canadian MD is a Batchelors degree, similar to the MBBS that UK docs have.

Novocastrian

Indeed, in France professeur can mean school teacher, even in a maternelle (1st grade etc.). It's usual to say "professeur d'universite" (properly accented, of course) to mean prof in the US/Canadian sense, and, as appropriate, something like "Professeur et Directeur de Département Universitaire" for the UK sense.

BTW fledermaus, the UK usage of Professor to mean Head of Dept. or Chairholder is dying out. Professors are multiplying like rabbits. When I were lad, there was one Prof per department, now there are 13 (count 'em!) in the department where I did my grad work. There appear to be two reasons for this (1) that when abroad, especially in the US, to be referred to as a lecturer implies lowly, untenured, status and to be referred to as a reader provokes blank stares. (2) lecturer/reader pay scales have a top. If you can get the professor title there are notwithstanding clauses through which you can negotiate a decent salary (if you have the clout).

Of course, needless to say, my job fits the traditional UK definition.