Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I would really welcome some advice and guidance from other expats on the following dilemma my wife and I now face. We are both fit pensioners who have recently knocked on the door of "70" and currently live independently in the UK. Our daughter, her Canadian husband and their family live in central-west Canada. Our son has also emigrated (to western USA), meaning we are on our own in the UK. My daughter's family has grown further recently with the birth of another child and we now feel that she could do with our support on a more permanent basis than the current 6 week annual/biannual visit/s we make to see her and our grandchildren.
Our problem is, should we take the plunge and move?

On the positive side I believe we can be of help in many areas, especially until the youngest is school aged. On the negative side we are getting older. We could get a Super Visa for 10 years, but what then? If we can't get PR, could healthcare costs become an issue? It goes without saying that without PR the 10 yr Super Visa would be fast approaching its expiration as we hit our 80s, and we would not wish to have to relocate back to the UK then.

I am genuinely in a quandary- stay put and be on our own through old age knowing we could be of use to our family if we move, or move with no guarantee of PR and the future possibility we would have to return to the UK at a relatively advanced age! Advice please. TIA

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

:popcorn:

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I am wondering why there would be no chance of PR at all. I know of a few families that have grandparents obtaining PR from a super-visa. I think its do-able just on the basis of those I know personally.


Frankly, I would do it. 10 years is a nice chunk of time anyway and if you were to find yourself having to return at 80 you would manage it with help. It may not be fun but it could be worth it.


(I say all this from my comfy spot of being younger and not facing this myself). Good luck in your decision.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Howefamily, Thanks for your reply. I apologise for my rather bleak outlook and the what ifs, I think that fatalism comes with age! Obviously, there is a chance of PR, but with the Sponsorship route now a lottery the chance is only 10% (100k applications vs 10k chosen). TBH, I haven't looked at how we would get on trying for PR of our own bat, but as pensioners I suspect our chances would be slim. Health insurance is also playing on my mind as healthcare is something that I don't have to concern myself about in the UK.
Anyway, if anyone has pensioner parents who have moved over, it would be good to hear their views. Thanks once again.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Healthcare is an issue, for Canadians as well. So long as you have insurance, that should cover most things, but read the fine print. Also, your family in Canada are giving an undertaking they will pick up any short fall if you cannot.

You might get PR, or you might not. Should you take the plunge, only you can answer that. Regardless of what others have done, your situation is unique to you. What you can afford and what you can't, your risk threshold.

If it were me, I would take whatever time I could with my family and figure out the rest later. If I had to go back to the UK, so be it.

Sponsorship is a lottery, so is the decision you have to make. In 10 years time, how do you think you will feel if you had not done it and taken a chance? By then it would be too late.

We may not even be here in 10 years time! Is leaving the grand kids with fond memories and a legacy of knowing their grand parents worth the risk? Life is a crap shoot, maybe make a list of pros and cons and go form there.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Think 10 years ahead after not doing this ? Will you regret all that precious time away from the grandkids, no doubt you will look back and think wow we was much fitter then why didn't we take the chance !!

Don't get into a situation later in life where you wish you had at least tried. Go do it, who knows, maybe this life IS heaven and u miss out on a golden chance ?

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

You can't live with "what ifs".

Who knows what immigration will be up to in 10 years. You might be able to stay longer....

10 years is a time to make lots of memories!

I'd jump at the chance... you only live once 😁

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Thanks everybody for your advice. Looks like I need to get my butt in gear and start the Super Visa application!
Kind regards
P

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

OP, my suggestion is stay put. Make 3-6 month visits for now, maybe take it in turns to support Daughter & new born.

Even if you made the Super visa 'sponsorship route', consider the following....

My feeling is if you make the major permanent move at your time of life, there will be issues, ranging from old folks get in the way, healthcare, climate, getting out & about when all hell freezes over & children will not always be wee ones, they grow quickly.

You may also find that you will miss the familiarity of 'back home'

If you have the resources to make one, even two visits a year, that IMO is better than the permanent move. You could also consider paying for your daughter to come visit you in the UK

Also any permanent move your British pension becomes frozen, loss of any winter fuel allowance, pension credit, carers allowance, free travel pass etc etc.

Lastly cost of living can be expensive in Canada


.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I do find it a teensy bit amusing that everyone has been saying go for it... apart from Not2old who one would have thought would , in view of his expat name be recommending likewise ...:cool:

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Thanks for that

Being also 70 years of age I understand that we cannot live our children's lives. That the OP daughter made her life with her Canadian husband to move to Canada, have children etc etc.

At age 70 (it is old, it's not 35 years of age) I wouldn't want to be a nuisance to my Daughters family (which will I believe happen at some point), nor would I want to at age 70 settled in my ways to move to a new country, not knowing the lifestyle, having to deal with healthcare issues & having my British OAP frozen + the loss of other UK benefits.

My approach is stay put, make as frequent as you want trips to Canada, with the Canadians can come visit the UK.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

:goodpost:

My father came to live with us in Canada from UK after he retired, He had a large family in Canada around him, but he missed his old friends in UK too much and he returned to UK after about three months.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Not2Old, your reply encapsulates many of the things that are in the back of my mind. I started this post because I've been flipping from one side to the other for the past 3 months. It's a difficult call, but maybe the deciding factor could be that in Canada we would be just 3 hrs flying time from our son and his family on the US west coast as opposed to 12 hours now. I think I need to get the ball rolling and if we get the Super Visa (there's many a slip betwixt cup and lip) we can then take a step by step approach (eg: rent in Canada and not buy for a year. Keep our UK home until we are really sure and have a true idea of our Canadian living costs etc.). It may not be the most cost effective way of doing things, but moving lock, stock and barrel and then deciding it's the wrong decision isn't either. Anyway, thanks for taking time to post.:thumbup:

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

The experience your father had is exactly why I do worry about moving later in life. Had we been 60, I doubt if I would have hesitated. But then again, in those days my daughter (and my son) lived in the UK so I didn't need to think about moving countries!!!:thumbup:

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I wish you all the best with whatever you do & that it all works out for the two of you.

let me add just a few last points on the basis that you get the visa

- Hopefully your resources are in order

- That you have factored in healthcare & year round living in a new country

- That should you make the final break by selling the UK house that you have also made that life changing decision.

- That should the Canadian family or the US family decide to move (quite common in this part of the world) are you also prepared to up-stakes again & move after you may have purchased in Canada?

- Do you have a fall back plan (2-5 years) in the event it doesn't work out, even after you sold the UK property?

- Or in the event one of you becomes seriously ill or passes away?



.



-

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

This :goodpost: I love my mother, but I would not want her to uproot her entire life snd move thousands of miles to be closer to me. As an adult she should live her life for her. Not me, not my children, but her. Just as I did when I left home to live overseas.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I am resurrecting an older post of mine from months ago, because there are other things to factor that you may not even realise are factors, so I'm going to copy and paste my thoughts here as they are still relevant:

You sound absolutely lovely and I wish you the best in your future plans. As you stated, this is a big decision.

After reading another thread, it reminded me that one thing many people seem to omit in their plans to move for quality of life purposes, or perhaps not take seriously, is the culture shock and the differences in culture. You are not moving to another place in the UK. You are moving to a different country with different customs and different ways of living life. Do you want a different life? To immerse yourself in a different culture? This is what a move to Canada will bring you.

On the surface, it may be similar to the UK, but the subtleties of the differences do add up. What I mean is that the small things you take for granted in the UK will be different in Canada. The infrastructure is different. Canada is the size of a continent, with a population half of the UK. It cannot function like a small, densely-populated country like the UK. Services and prices reflect that. The banking systems are different. The way towns/cities/villages are built is different. The options to interact with the wilderness and countryside is different. The perceptions of history and geographical distance are different. The prices and modes of public transportation are different. The seasons - when they start, how long they last - is different. The way people shop for food is different. The food choices available to you are different. The television shows and radio personalities and all the pop culture references you take for granted that you grew up with in the UK will be foreign to Canadians, and what they reflect on nostalgically will be foreign to you. The way people socialize in public and behind closed doors privately is different. Etc. You will need to adapt your UK habits and transition and adjust into new Canadian habits.

Again, these are subtle differences. A move to Canada is not a move to Mongolia, but these subtle cultural differences will exist.

Let's say you arrive in Canada. You secure your dream job. You secure your dream home. Will you and your family be ready to embrace living immersed in a different society that is quite different from UK society? Are you looking for that kind of cultural change? Those expectations must be there before considering a move to Canada in my opinion.

My ramble there is mainly to play devil's advocate, but to also set expectations. Again, I do emphasize, you sound absolutely lovely and I do believe you are going about your research in the right way. If you're the easy-going sort and move to Canada with an open mind ready for new experiences, you could have a very happy family life in Canada.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I wouldn't buy a home here until you are a PR. Admittedly we bought 2 condos before PR...but since then some Provinces have stepped up taxes to prevent overseas buyers pushing up property prices.

Look into healthcare insurance (its required for the SV)...for both living here and for a long vacation. For 70s it may be a deciding factor. It will also cover you for emgencies only...which means they patch you up and then you have to go home for further treatment. This happened to a friend visiting relatives for 3 months...she went to the ER...was admitted and after tests was advised to return to the UK for further treatment (cancer).

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I've read this with interest and the many well balanced and thoughtful replies you've been offered. I'm not Canadian but American and my Canadian husband chose to live in the US instead of my going to Canada (he hates snow). I'm just shy of 70 and he is well over it.

He fell in love with the southern state of Mississippi when we came to visit my daughter who lives down here. Hubby wanted to live here and so when he retired he moved to Mississippi and I stayed in NY for several years alone while I continued to work to reach the retirement age. Last year, I finally moved to Mississippi.

I felt, while I didn't like the state, at least I had my daughter and my 3 grandchildren and my husband here. Surprise. I live 3 miles from my daughter and while we were always close and we visited twice a year when I lived in NY, I see her perhaps once every 10 to 15 days and talk with her only when I pick up the phone. Why? Not because there isn't love there but because she has a life with her husband and children and work and after school games for the boys and her daughter all of whom play either football, baseball or soccer. There isn't time in her busy day to be seeing Mom daily or every other day or to be picking up the phone daily. She had lived down here with her family for many years before we moved down. They have established a life with church, family, friends, activities all of which do not involve parents who lived 1500 miles away. It was wrong of me to think that we would be an easy inclusion into their lives and that I could be helpful to her with the kids and running errands. We are still what we have always been: parents who are loved and who they visit for special occasions or when we issue an invite and they have the free time to accept.

It is not wise to think you will be heavily involved in your children's lives. They have started lives with spouses and children and you have been pigeon holed into the slot marked "loved, respected and happy to see on visits". As difficult as it is to have them living on another continent, they have moved more than geographically. They have moved emotionally. That is the hardest thing to find out.

Why not take advantage of a few long visits to Canada to stay with them. Six to eight weeks will tell you a lot about whether you can seamlessly reinsert yourself into her new life. Go in the summer and go again in deep winter. You really need to experience the deep winters of Canada before you seriously consider a permanent move.

The best of everything to you.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I think Not2Old sums up my thoughts on this. The kids growing up and old folks getting in the way comments whilst may not be particularly nice to hear, are often quite true even with best intentions.


I was very close to my grand parents which admittedly was very nice but I used them as an escape from a troubled home life. All of my cousins on the other hand had 'normal' home lives and as such as they got older the visits to grand parents became very infrequent, sometimes only a couple of times a year.


I've read a few times on this forum that people spend more quality time with their friends/relatives when visiting than when they lived close by. I think when it's a visit, both parties feel a desire to make a real effort to make the most of your time together.


If you can continue to make the 3-6 month annual trips then I'd continue to do that, it must be a pain but in my opinion it's the best of both worlds.


Either way I wish you the best of luck with whatever you decide. There's a wealth of knowledge around the forum, stick around and let us know how you get on :thumbup:

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Wow, so many posters to thank. So much sound advice. Where do I start? Firstly, I'd like to thank the new posters- Dorothy, Lychee, Jerseygirl and Rete for their valuable input. Many of the points they raise have been buzzing around my head since we began considering whether or not to make the move to Canada.
We've been 3 times to Canada in winter and genuinely do worry about how we would fill our time. My wife and I walk and cycle to keep fit- but when it's 40 below that's not really an option outside. Our answer (in our head) is we would visit our son on the US west coast (ie become a snowbird, I think they call it), or visit southern Europe (from where my wife comes from). But whether that would really be an option as we get older is questionable. BTW, we went this summer and discovered Canadian "mosquitoes", but- thankfully- never encountered any ticks!
Rete also made a good point about seeing her daughter ("I see her perhaps once every 10 to 15 days and talk with her only when I pick up the phone. Why? Not because there isn't love there but because she has a life with her husband and children and work and after school games..."). Our daughter Skype's us every 7-10 days or so. Her life is hectic. How would we feel if having moved to Canada we discover that contact is no more frequent? My wife and I have discussed this scenario at length, and still don't know the answer!
Jerseygirl mentioned health insurance- that for me is one of the biggest issues (if no PR were forthcoming). A close relative of mine has just been diagnosed with cancer, and so the thought of having to fund such treatment ourselves came to the fore.
Lychee mentioned cultural differences. We have noted these as well. In one way we are lucky as my wife and I have both lived abroad when we were younger. But we would be moving to an area in Western-Central Canada with sparse populations, where some have never left the region and many have not visited other countries. Discussing in any depth things outside of their experience that we hold dear (heritage, European history, ancient buildings, cricket(!) etc) will be challenging. But the onus is on us to adapt to their culture. Unfortunately, without trying it we will never know if we can.
Not2old also made a salient point about people moving. My daughter has been in Canada 7 years and in that time has moved houses about 6 times! Thankfully, all within 90 miles. We haven't moved in over 30 years, so moving once for us will be a big thing. Having to move yet again having established ourselves would be problematic.
I could waffle on forever. So I'll sign off and say thanks for all the advice it has been a great help.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

given the responses to your OP, in your shoes I would proceed as follows

- apply for the super visa, who knows if you get it

- should you get the visa, then & only then can you make your decision to 'shall we, shan't we'

Likely that you have already checked out the basics on the super visa?

I checked the Canada immigration website for processing times that indicates they are currently working on applications made in January 2014

Check application processing times

eligibility?

Determine your eligibility – Visit your children or grandchildren

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Great post!

Leaving children aside, are you living your ideal retirement now? What was your dream when you retired?

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Thanks for the post Shakyuk, it's a hard call. Up to now we've spent 6 weeks on each visit (mainly because of travel health insurance). However,for many reasons (4 lively grandkids under 9 years can be exhausting; having your mum/dad living with you 24/7 for months at a time is not ideal ; lack of independence due to no public transport etc) we found this stay length was just about right. However, this parachuting in an out of our grandkids' lives means that just as they are getting used to us being around it's time for us to go. I think staying longer would be better for them, but I really think we would need our own "space" (ie place to sleep and "escape" to ), which then opens up another can of worms in terms of additional costs, insurance, general upkeep etc. etc.
On the subject of non-visa 6 month stays, I have wondered if immigration officers would start to question why we were staying for 4/5 months, leaving for 1-2months and then returning. Would/could immigration call "time" on this and refuse entry based on the grounds that we are trying to evade residency rules? I suspect my fears are groundless, but they have been in the back of my mind- which is why I then started thinking about the SV route and more permanency.

Not2old- Thanks for the links. Putting in the basic SV details it says that the London wait is 69 days. We'll see if that's true when I start the process later this year. Anyway, I'll keep the forum updated on any progress and any things that I note along the way.
Thanks again
P

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

If you tried to spend more months of the year in Canada than outside Canada...then yes it would be viewed as trying to live here. You may get away with it for a while. You also have to consider taxes...if you spend "x" number of days per year in Canada you will have to file Canadian taxes. Just because you are not a resident as far as immigration is concerned...doesn't mean you are not a tax resident and liable for Canadian taxes.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

which brings us the the financial/income requirements

FWIW

Applying for Visitor Visa (Temporary Resident Visa – IMM 5256)

2 adults + 4 children + 2 grans = 8 people requires family income for the sponsors of $71,729.....erm?

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

you may wish to check of that again. From the CIC website processing times. I went to the Canada mission in London UK & it still gave me the following


Parents or grandparents

"Working on applications received in January 2014?
Visit Canada sooner with a Super Visa!

View your application status online

If you applied before January, 2014 be sure you have responded to all communication from IRCC."

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Tax residency rules https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-age...cy-status.html

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Hi Not2old, Have checked again. The Family sponsorship does say 2014, but when you click:
What are you applying for? and select visiting, studying etc a sub box opens which allows you to select Super Visa. The process time then says 69 days.

I hope that's correct!:confused::confused:

P

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Tirytory, you pose a couple of difficult questions.
I'm not sure we had a dream at retirement, it was more a freedom to go where (not necessarily great distances) and when (ie not just Sat or Sun or holidays) we wanted and do things when and how we wanted. In that respect we've been very lucky as we've been fit enough to be able to achieve those goals without any problems. We never really did the sort of crystal ball gazing and planning we did when we were young, it was more about the present.

But for us life has never been just about having experiences,it has always been about sharing those experiences with our family. Other couples of our age don't feel the same. Some think they've "done their bit for the family" and have emigrated to warmer climes to live THEIR lives, leaving behind their children and grandchildren. I'm sure that if had we been of that mindset, we would now be drinking a Bloody Mary on some golden beach and this thread would not exist. But we aren't, which is why it is difficult to "Leave the kids aside".

We stayed put as we felt we had a supportive role to play in our families' lives. Now they have emigrated we need a new plan, one we could never have foreseen and one which has major repercussions on our lives. Hence our need for others' viewpoints so that we know that on deciding which way to "jump" we have considered all the angles.
P

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Do your grandchildren have another set of grandparents who are local to them?

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

You're looking at Family Class sponsorship processing times (i.e. a PR app). The OP is correct that Supervisa processing times are currently at 69 days.

HTH.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

dbd33- I'm pleased to say that they do have another set of grandparents who are less that 30 mins away and who do a great job. Unfortunately, unlike us, both are working full time so their free time is very limited- especially during the week. That free time also has to be shared amongst their other grandchildren.
P

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

To the OP - I would stay put and opt to use the UK as your base. Go for 3-6 months on visa travel to Canada. I tried this route many years ago with my own parents who found they could only last 3 months at a time here in the US, luckily they kept their base etc in the UK. Talking, skyping imho occur far more frequently when there are miles between people.I have siblings who live less than 4 miles away from my parents but talk every few weeks, sometimes monthly.

Re your latest post. How much do your family in Canada really feel the same? They may say they want you there and you are willing to go but don't underestimate that privacy distance creates. Go on a long holiday/ or cruise and see how you feel once you and they have been out of each others lives for some time.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

To the OP I say stay in the UK and keep your base there and visit for extended periods. I believe ultimately it leads to less heartache and less expense going for 3- 6 months at a time. After all we all need our privacy and separate time no matter how much we think the opposite.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

I ask because there are few people in this world to whom I would less enjoy more exposure than my grandchildren's other grandparents. It's a dynamic to be considered.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

That said, how do you see your involvement with your Daughter & her children - will it be Monday to Friday so you get a weekend off, less frequent or on as need be basis?i

Right now you're making a couple of visits a year, on the phone & skype regularly, so looking at this from another angle, suppose your daughter & her family lived in the UK in another town or city that was more than one-hour away, how often do you reckon you would be seeing each other?

Should it all go the way it will supervisa, are you planning to live within walking distance of your Daughters home, will you be minding the children, taking them to school & picking them up the way that grans in the UK do?

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Have your children asked you to move? Is it something that's even been discussed?

Have you looked at the cost of health insurance on a supervisa?

Are you aware that your UK state pension won't increase while you are resident in Canads?

Have you factored in exchange rate fluctuations on your uk income sources?

If you like your lives now then stay put. Carry on with the long visits, let your family know that if needed you can fly out and stay with them at short notice.

Based on my mums visits with us we've got to spend more time and with greater depth since we moved here than we would have had we stayed back in England and visited weekly.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

These last few posts have summed up a lot of the things I've thought of as well. Questions like, does the OP's daughter and her family actually want them to move closer? I know myself that I have carved out a life here away from my family and while I would love to see them more often I truly don't know how I would feel about my aging parents living so close. Would I feel an obligation to see them weekly? If so, what in my life do I give up so I can make time for that? Do my children really want to hang out with their grandparents more often? If yes now, how long before they don't want to? Kids grow up and make their own lives, so it's only a matter of time before the grandkids do the same.

My partner and I are awaiting our visa which will allow me to move "home" to Canada. However, while most of my family is in Southern Ontario, we are planning to go to eastern BC. I have been gone for 11 years and while it's great to see everyone on holidays I am no longer a part of their daily lives and they are no longer a part of mine.

OP, if you were my parents I would probably try to dissuade you from moving to Canada. You have your home, your friends, your daily activities, GP, church, whatever you do, right where you are. If you move to central western Canada what will you have besides your daughter and her family? That's a very large responsibility for her knowing that you gave up your lives to move to be nearer her. I would encourage you to visit me for as long as you wanted to but keep your home in the UK with all you're used to.

As for having someplace of your own while you're in Canada, have you looked at renting a place of your own for 3 months at a time? Maybe an AirBnB? I'm not sure where you daughter is, but I know where my family is there are lots of really nice trailer parks where you can rent a nice static caravan for the season so you would have your privacy and not feel like you're living in your daughter's home. It's also a place where the grandchildren can come and visit you.

Good luck with whatever you decide. It's a tough one.

Re: Shall we, Shan't we?
 

Renting somewhere sounds like a really good idea. That way the OP can experience actual living in Canada as opposed to visiting.
Maybe that's the first thing to try out even before considering a permanent move any further?