Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Sep 21st 2008, 9:32 pm
#16
mclauchlan35
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Was Prestwick Ayrshire, now Canmore AB.
Posts: 999
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
I kinda think if it's not broken don't fix it and all that, I'm not sure that you can believe anything that the politicians say and I take all that with a pinch of salt.
Sure, things like getting used as guinea pigs for the poll tax really sucked and it seems that a lot of the industry in Scotland was closed to safe guard jobs down south, no doubt that has happened both ways but for the average person in the UK what would change? Just some fame for the politicians involved at the expense of the UK tax payer.
Sure, things like getting used as guinea pigs for the poll tax really sucked and it seems that a lot of the industry in Scotland was closed to safe guard jobs down south, no doubt that has happened both ways but for the average person in the UK what would change? Just some fame for the politicians involved at the expense of the UK tax payer.
Sep 21st 2008, 10:16 pm
#17
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Apr 2008
Location: Calgary
Posts: 3,340
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Certainly Labour will never be in power in the UK without Scottish MPs. Does this explain the situation described in the article below:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...is-496903.html
I think most people in England would like to see Scotland in the UK still but would say if its what the Scots want then fine.
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion...is-496903.html
I think most people in England would like to see Scotland in the UK still but would say if its what the Scots want then fine.
Sep 22nd 2008, 1:06 am
#18
Part Time Poster
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Worcestershire
Posts: 4,219
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Mark "Rent-boy" Renton: It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the ****ing Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any ****ing difference!
Train spotting...........
Train spotting...........
Sep 22nd 2008, 2:20 am
#19
mclauchlan35
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Was Prestwick Ayrshire, now Canmore AB.
Posts: 999
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Mark "Rent-boy" Renton: It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the ****ing Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any ****ing difference!
Train spotting...........
Train spotting...........
Sep 22nd 2008, 6:39 am
#20
Banned
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Calgary, South by Java Head
Posts: 504
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
as were most of the main characters - Begbie excepted, he was just a heid the ba , quote was written by Irvine Welsh who is a Hibs fan ; nuff said
remember having a huge debate with the m-in-law to be at the time 10yrs back, country pub middle england , topic of independence arose ; she had so much opinion on this matter based soley upon the daily mail or whatever ; another one who got a nosebleed by the midlands
remember having a huge debate with the m-in-law to be at the time 10yrs back, country pub middle england , topic of independence arose ; she had so much opinion on this matter based soley upon the daily mail or whatever ; another one who got a nosebleed by the midlands
Sep 22nd 2008, 8:10 am
#21
Magnificently Withering
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: Oakville, ON
Posts: 6,892
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
This may be a bit long-winded, so apologies in advance. Plus, I'm an Englishman (and a Southerner at that) so my comments are obviously irretrievably biased, but - in the best traditions of defending the indefensible - some of my best friends are Scots, and I did once spend a year and a half living and working in Aberdeen...
I don't think full independent nationhood is a realistic viable proposition for Scotland. Sure, mechanisms could be put in place, in much the same way as they were when Czechoslovakia dismembered itself; but Great Britain (leaving Ireland out of the equation for a moment) is rather more tightly-knit than Czechoslovakia ever was. The only other instances I can think of where countries have split themselves into smaller parts have been as the result of bloody confict (think Yugoslavia, Eritrea, etc etc).
I believe there are a number of parallels between Scotland and Quebec, not the least of which are the historical ties of both to France, the "traditional enemy" of England. Scotland is probably marginally economically viable as a separate state. Sure, there are oil revenues, but (contrary to the rantings of some activists) the State's relatively small net income from those is already proportionately spent more in Scotland than England or Wales. I suppose a newly independent Scottish government could nationalise the oil industry, but in commercial private ownership nothing much will change.
Scotland's prosperity through the 19th and most of the 20th century was built on heavy industry - coal, steel, shipbuilding and so on - particularly in and around Glasgow. Today there are a number of financial and commercial operations that have taken advantage of tax breaks and the supply of great people to build businesses in telecoms, banking and insurance. Consider the parallels of Quebec here. Montreal was the commercial capital of Canada until the 1970s, when unfriendly moves by the provincial government drove a number of businesses - including the Bank of Montreal - to relocate their headquarters and principal operations to Toronto. If a Scottish independence movement really gained a footing, wouldn't companies in Britain, maybe including RBS, do the same and hightail it to London's international marketplace?
It's not as if the Scottish banks are Scottish any more anyway. RBS Group is headquartered in Edinburgh, but does most of its international and commercial business in London as it is. HBOS is imploding and in the process of being acquired by Lloyds TSB. Clydesdale, even if you include the Yorkshire Bank, is too small to trouble the scorers, and is anyway owned by Australians (the NAB).
An independent Scotland would be a minnow in Europe. It would be a net recipient of funds, but because of the strange way the CAP, common fisheries policies and other aid programmes are administered, probably wouldn't benefit as much as similar smaller nations such as Ireland or the Baltic states. So it would remain relatively poor and powerless in comparison with its southern neighbour.
Scotland already has a degree of legal, educational, legislative and tax-raising autonomy through the various devolution Acts and local government powers. Quebec, too, has a wholly different legal structure based on the Code Napoleonique rather than English Common Law; has the Cegep system in secondary education, and a number of other differences from the ROC.
In those respects at least, I think there are some strong parallels between Scotland and Quebec. While there is a strong undercurrent of nationalism in both, true independence for either would be economically damaging at best, and wholly unsustainable at worst.
If I were Alex Salmond, I would be careful what I wished for, as full independence would, IMHO, harm the Scottish economy far more than the current perception of being bled dry of oil revenues by the evil Sassenachs.
Just my opinions, of course, but I've had similar conversations with my aforementioned Scottish friends over a glass or two of the Bowmore or Bruichladdich a number of times in the past. We (nearly) always come to the same conclusions.
I don't think full independent nationhood is a realistic viable proposition for Scotland. Sure, mechanisms could be put in place, in much the same way as they were when Czechoslovakia dismembered itself; but Great Britain (leaving Ireland out of the equation for a moment) is rather more tightly-knit than Czechoslovakia ever was. The only other instances I can think of where countries have split themselves into smaller parts have been as the result of bloody confict (think Yugoslavia, Eritrea, etc etc).
I believe there are a number of parallels between Scotland and Quebec, not the least of which are the historical ties of both to France, the "traditional enemy" of England. Scotland is probably marginally economically viable as a separate state. Sure, there are oil revenues, but (contrary to the rantings of some activists) the State's relatively small net income from those is already proportionately spent more in Scotland than England or Wales. I suppose a newly independent Scottish government could nationalise the oil industry, but in commercial private ownership nothing much will change.
Scotland's prosperity through the 19th and most of the 20th century was built on heavy industry - coal, steel, shipbuilding and so on - particularly in and around Glasgow. Today there are a number of financial and commercial operations that have taken advantage of tax breaks and the supply of great people to build businesses in telecoms, banking and insurance. Consider the parallels of Quebec here. Montreal was the commercial capital of Canada until the 1970s, when unfriendly moves by the provincial government drove a number of businesses - including the Bank of Montreal - to relocate their headquarters and principal operations to Toronto. If a Scottish independence movement really gained a footing, wouldn't companies in Britain, maybe including RBS, do the same and hightail it to London's international marketplace?
It's not as if the Scottish banks are Scottish any more anyway. RBS Group is headquartered in Edinburgh, but does most of its international and commercial business in London as it is. HBOS is imploding and in the process of being acquired by Lloyds TSB. Clydesdale, even if you include the Yorkshire Bank, is too small to trouble the scorers, and is anyway owned by Australians (the NAB).
An independent Scotland would be a minnow in Europe. It would be a net recipient of funds, but because of the strange way the CAP, common fisheries policies and other aid programmes are administered, probably wouldn't benefit as much as similar smaller nations such as Ireland or the Baltic states. So it would remain relatively poor and powerless in comparison with its southern neighbour.
Scotland already has a degree of legal, educational, legislative and tax-raising autonomy through the various devolution Acts and local government powers. Quebec, too, has a wholly different legal structure based on the Code Napoleonique rather than English Common Law; has the Cegep system in secondary education, and a number of other differences from the ROC.
In those respects at least, I think there are some strong parallels between Scotland and Quebec. While there is a strong undercurrent of nationalism in both, true independence for either would be economically damaging at best, and wholly unsustainable at worst.
If I were Alex Salmond, I would be careful what I wished for, as full independence would, IMHO, harm the Scottish economy far more than the current perception of being bled dry of oil revenues by the evil Sassenachs.
Just my opinions, of course, but I've had similar conversations with my aforementioned Scottish friends over a glass or two of the Bowmore or Bruichladdich a number of times in the past. We (nearly) always come to the same conclusions.
Sep 22nd 2008, 8:18 am
#22
Lotus-eater
Joined: Jan 2004
Location: Cascadian Autonomous Elysian Region
Posts: 5,069
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
It's all pish, mon.
And Trainspotting was a documentary. Fact.
R.
And Trainspotting was a documentary. Fact.
R.
Sep 22nd 2008, 8:54 am
#24
Banned
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Calgary, South by Java Head
Posts: 504
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
This may be a bit long-winded, so apologies in advance. Plus, I'm an Englishman (and a Southerner at that) so my comments are obviously irretrievably biased, but - in the best traditions of defending the indefensible - some of my best friends are Scots, and I did once spend a year and a half living and working in Aberdeen...
I don't think full independent nationhood is a realistic viable proposition for Scotland. Sure, mechanisms could be put in place, in much the same way as they were when Czechoslovakia dismembered itself; but Great Britain (leaving Ireland out of the equation for a moment) is rather more tightly-knit than Czechoslovakia ever was. The only other instances I can think of where countries have split themselves into smaller parts have been as the result of bloody confict (think Yugoslavia, Eritrea, etc etc).
I believe there are a number of parallels between Scotland and Quebec, not the least of which are the historical ties of both to France, the "traditional enemy" of England. Scotland is probably marginally economically viable as a separate state. Sure, there are oil revenues, but (contrary to the rantings of some activists) the State's relatively small net income from those is already proportionately spent more in Scotland than England or Wales. I suppose a newly independent Scottish government could nationalise the oil industry, but in commercial private ownership nothing much will change.
Scotland's prosperity through the 19th and most of the 20th century was built on heavy industry - coal, steel, shipbuilding and so on - particularly in and around Glasgow. Today there are a number of financial and commercial operations that have taken advantage of tax breaks and the supply of great people to build businesses in telecoms, banking and insurance. Consider the parallels of Quebec here. Montreal was the commercial capital of Canada until the 1970s, when unfriendly moves by the provincial government drove a number of businesses - including the Bank of Montreal - to relocate their headquarters and principal operations to Toronto. If a Scottish independence movement really gained a footing, wouldn't companies in Britain, maybe including RBS, do the same and hightail it to London's international marketplace?
It's not as if the Scottish banks are Scottish any more anyway. RBS Group is headquartered in Edinburgh, but does most of its international and commercial business in London as it is. HBOS is imploding and in the process of being acquired by Lloyds TSB. Clydesdale, even if you include the Yorkshire Bank, is too small to trouble the scorers, and is anyway owned by Australians (the NAB).
An independent Scotland would be a minnow in Europe. It would be a net recipient of funds, but because of the strange way the CAP, common fisheries policies and other aid programmes are administered, probably wouldn't benefit as much as similar smaller nations such as Ireland or the Baltic states. So it would remain relatively poor and powerless in comparison with its southern neighbour.
Scotland already has a degree of legal, educational, legislative and tax-raising autonomy through the various devolution Acts and local government powers. Quebec, too, has a wholly different legal structure based on the Code Napoleonique rather than English Common Law; has the Cegep system in secondary education, and a number of other differences from the ROC.
In those respects at least, I think there are some strong parallels between Scotland and Quebec. While there is a strong undercurrent of nationalism in both, true independence for either would be economically damaging at best, and wholly unsustainable at worst.
If I were Alex Salmond, I would be careful what I wished for, as full independence would, IMHO, harm the Scottish economy far more than the current perception of being bled dry of oil revenues by the evil Sassenachs.
Just my opinions, of course, but I've had similar conversations with my aforementioned Scottish friends over a glass or two of the Bowmore or Bruichladdich a number of times in the past. We (nearly) always come to the same conclusions.
I don't think full independent nationhood is a realistic viable proposition for Scotland. Sure, mechanisms could be put in place, in much the same way as they were when Czechoslovakia dismembered itself; but Great Britain (leaving Ireland out of the equation for a moment) is rather more tightly-knit than Czechoslovakia ever was. The only other instances I can think of where countries have split themselves into smaller parts have been as the result of bloody confict (think Yugoslavia, Eritrea, etc etc).
I believe there are a number of parallels between Scotland and Quebec, not the least of which are the historical ties of both to France, the "traditional enemy" of England. Scotland is probably marginally economically viable as a separate state. Sure, there are oil revenues, but (contrary to the rantings of some activists) the State's relatively small net income from those is already proportionately spent more in Scotland than England or Wales. I suppose a newly independent Scottish government could nationalise the oil industry, but in commercial private ownership nothing much will change.
Scotland's prosperity through the 19th and most of the 20th century was built on heavy industry - coal, steel, shipbuilding and so on - particularly in and around Glasgow. Today there are a number of financial and commercial operations that have taken advantage of tax breaks and the supply of great people to build businesses in telecoms, banking and insurance. Consider the parallels of Quebec here. Montreal was the commercial capital of Canada until the 1970s, when unfriendly moves by the provincial government drove a number of businesses - including the Bank of Montreal - to relocate their headquarters and principal operations to Toronto. If a Scottish independence movement really gained a footing, wouldn't companies in Britain, maybe including RBS, do the same and hightail it to London's international marketplace?
It's not as if the Scottish banks are Scottish any more anyway. RBS Group is headquartered in Edinburgh, but does most of its international and commercial business in London as it is. HBOS is imploding and in the process of being acquired by Lloyds TSB. Clydesdale, even if you include the Yorkshire Bank, is too small to trouble the scorers, and is anyway owned by Australians (the NAB).
An independent Scotland would be a minnow in Europe. It would be a net recipient of funds, but because of the strange way the CAP, common fisheries policies and other aid programmes are administered, probably wouldn't benefit as much as similar smaller nations such as Ireland or the Baltic states. So it would remain relatively poor and powerless in comparison with its southern neighbour.
Scotland already has a degree of legal, educational, legislative and tax-raising autonomy through the various devolution Acts and local government powers. Quebec, too, has a wholly different legal structure based on the Code Napoleonique rather than English Common Law; has the Cegep system in secondary education, and a number of other differences from the ROC.
In those respects at least, I think there are some strong parallels between Scotland and Quebec. While there is a strong undercurrent of nationalism in both, true independence for either would be economically damaging at best, and wholly unsustainable at worst.
If I were Alex Salmond, I would be careful what I wished for, as full independence would, IMHO, harm the Scottish economy far more than the current perception of being bled dry of oil revenues by the evil Sassenachs.
Just my opinions, of course, but I've had similar conversations with my aforementioned Scottish friends over a glass or two of the Bowmore or Bruichladdich a number of times in the past. We (nearly) always come to the same conclusions.
Sep 22nd 2008, 10:45 am
#25
Lowering the tone
Joined: Mar 2007
Location: Here and there
Posts: 7,398
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Trouble is, Alex Salmond and the SNP are single-issue fanatics playing to the basest instincts of the masses. And it's an willing audience who are only too keen to go along with it - an article published only today in The Scotsman confirms that Braveheart is the most popular Scottish film.
http://news.scotsman.com/scottishfil...-be.4214373.jp
Just why is this film so popular? For no other reason than sentimental, whisky-soaked, shortbread-tin "patriotism" that is based on nothing than "We Hate The English."
I am really afraid that the SNP will get their way. They'll probably win the election... cue a great big party, hooray for an independent Scotland... but then, the next day will be the biggest hangover Scotland's ever had.
Sep 22nd 2008, 11:49 am
#26
BE Enthusiast
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: BC The best place on earth
Posts: 491
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
[QUOTE=Jingsamichty;6809768]Hear, hear!
an article published only today in The Scotsman confirms that Braveheart is the most popular Scottish film.
And that was filmed in Co.Meath in Ireland.!!
an article published only today in The Scotsman confirms that Braveheart is the most popular Scottish film.
And that was filmed in Co.Meath in Ireland.!!
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:28 pm
#27
Islander
Joined: Jun 2005
Location: Toronto, woo!
Posts: 953
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
I don't know, I certainly don't look at them in exactly the same way. I was always jealous of the way the Scots had it in their country and I'm not quite as keen to up sticks and move to Quebec.
The Scots get free university tuition and free prescriptions; the costs of which have both done nothing but go up for most of the rest of the Brit populace. They spend more per capita on their NHS patients, treat their elderly in care in a much more humane and dignified manner, and the assembly introduced some really inclusive immigration policies.
All of it pretty much the opposite of the rest of the nation, and in a good way. As far as I've experienced the Quebecers are known more for.. well.. other things. Few of them positive.
The Scots get free university tuition and free prescriptions; the costs of which have both done nothing but go up for most of the rest of the Brit populace. They spend more per capita on their NHS patients, treat their elderly in care in a much more humane and dignified manner, and the assembly introduced some really inclusive immigration policies.
All of it pretty much the opposite of the rest of the nation, and in a good way. As far as I've experienced the Quebecers are known more for.. well.. other things. Few of them positive.
Sep 22nd 2008, 12:45 pm
#28
Just Joined
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 10
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
Was Quebec ever classed as an independent country? I don't know enough about Canadian history to say. If not then there's no real similarity.
Scotland were alone before and as the older of the population die away there will be a greater push amongst younger people to go this way again.
Alex Salmond is a great orator and one of the few politicians I admire. The SNP are certainly not a one issue party and their first year and a half of government in Scotland has been a big populist success. Their policies have made a real difference to those like my parents and friends who still live in Scotland.
As Labour implode the SNP will just continue to rise and rise and an independent Scotland would be something which would tempt me back from living in Canada at some point.
Scotland were alone before and as the older of the population die away there will be a greater push amongst younger people to go this way again.
Alex Salmond is a great orator and one of the few politicians I admire. The SNP are certainly not a one issue party and their first year and a half of government in Scotland has been a big populist success. Their policies have made a real difference to those like my parents and friends who still live in Scotland.
As Labour implode the SNP will just continue to rise and rise and an independent Scotland would be something which would tempt me back from living in Canada at some point.
Sep 22nd 2008, 3:21 pm
#30
BE Forum Addict
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,124
Re: Is Scotland the UK's Quebec
I was in Edinburgh twice, 1987 and 1992. both one week business trips.
Not to my surprise the topic of Quebec independence arose. I remarked to my confreres that I could think of nothing which would justify such an adventure. However in 1995 we came uncomfortably close: 48 per cent said yes. Since then this idea has become somewhat dated and isn't even a topic for discussion anymore.
As to Scotland going it alone, well I guess it is always a possibility.
Not to my surprise the topic of Quebec independence arose. I remarked to my confreres that I could think of nothing which would justify such an adventure. However in 1995 we came uncomfortably close: 48 per cent said yes. Since then this idea has become somewhat dated and isn't even a topic for discussion anymore.
As to Scotland going it alone, well I guess it is always a possibility.
