Alan2005

I've been an employee. But it seems self evident that an employer would know what they could afford to pay somebody while still making a profit off their labour. What they need to pay get the talent they want may be harder, but after hiring a few monkeys I would imagine they would learn that too.

Shirtback

I have been responsible (on behalf of an employer) for writing, posting, job ads & interviewing applicants, negotiating salary packages.

HTH.

S

Oakvillian

I've been on both sides of this fence, so hopefully can add some constructive comments...

When I first came to Canada, I was transferred within the company I worked for. I effectively had my salary in Sterling converted to dollars at the prevailing exchange rate (which in my case worked out pretty favourably - the rate was around 2.26 to the pound). There wasn't much room for negotiation, really. That made things slightly interesting when looking for a new job within Canada a few years later, as I had not had experience of doing salary comparisons and knowing where to pitch myself in the marketplace.

Helpful advice I had at the time was fourfold:

• declining the salary expectation question, at least on online applications, is acceptable. It's unlikely to be a showstopper at the first hurdle for an employer.
• don't give a "range" - you will be thinking that you can push for the upper end; the employer will be thinking you will settle for the lower end: you're setting up a weak negotiating position. If you're thinking in terms of a range, quote the higher number only.
• If you get to the point in interview where you need to bring up the issue, be honest. "I was on $xxx (or £xxx); I am looking for a total package that amounts to $xxx; how that pans out in terms of base, bonus, benefits etc is negotiable..."
• Be prepared to negotiate away salary for other things that are more important. In mid-to-upper management positions at least, it might make much more sense to forsake a few thousand dollars for the sake of a stronger termination clause, or a better deal on vacation. Termination terms for an employee here tend to be much, much less generous than they are in the EU.
• Research. Find out as much as you can about comparable roles and their salaries. Don't be afraid to ask: find somebody in a similar role in a different company on LinkedIn, connect, set up a phone meeting, and be blunt (Canadians generally are much less reticent about such stuff than Brits). If you can't be as blunt as "what do you earn" try asking in a roundabout way, "can you give me any pointers as to fair compensation for this kind of role," or "what would be an average salary for this role?"

I've recently hired a couple of people. Not having a salary expectation explicitly on the application was no hindrance: in fact, stating an expectation that was way out of line disqualified a few people whom we might have been able to negotiate into the price bracket. One or two set their expectations so low that we were bemused how they thought we'd think they had the experience necessary for the role. Those otherwise promising candidates who were only just outside the price range had a call from HR to see if they were genuinely "won't get out of bed for less than x" or were just pushing to see if they could take a bigger step up. Most were in the latter camp; we ended up recruiting one of those.

If your salary expectations are genuinely completely misaligned with the company's expectation of what they'll spend, there's no point either of you wasting the other's time. Better to clear that up in the first interview than jumping through all the hoops then being presented with a wholly unrealistic offer letter.

JonboyE

I completely agree with these points.

As an employer the onus is on me to offer a package for a job that is appropriate for the skills, experience and education I need. If I am trying to get an employee on the cheap the sooner the potential employee finds this out the better for the potential employee.

As a candidate the onus is on me to do the research to find out what the market rate is for the skills, experience and education I bring to the table. If I am a chancer just trying to blag the biggest salary I can then the sooner the employer finds this out the better for all concerned.

MarylandNed

Surely even a first interview is a waste of time if the numbers are so misaligned? If the employer specifies up front what they expect to spend, the potential applicant will know whether it's even worth applying in the first place.

JonboyE

Yes, which is why some employers ask for salary expectations with the application.

This is a problem from an employer's point if view because, if they state the job pays $60,000 they will get a load of applications form people who want to be paid $60,000 but are not necessarily worth it.

I just don't see asking salary expectations is an imposition. An applicant should know what a job should pay. If they can't be bothered to find out they are unlikely to be a great employee. As Oakvillian said above, it is perfectly possible to state a figure that will ensure you and the employer are in the same ballpark and still leave negotiating room.

MarylandNed

But even a job application is a waste of time (for both sides) if the numbers are so misaligned.


But if they don't state the salary they'll still get applications from people who are not worth it.

Same goes for the employer stating the salary.

But none of this prevents the employer from stating the salary up front. I know what an IT job should pay in my area but I get pissed off when I apply and find out later that the employer is trying to pay well below the going rate. That's a waste of time for both.

helcat12

[QUOTE=JonboyE;

An applicant should know what a job should pay. If they can't be bothered to find out they are unlikely to be a great employee. As Oakvillian said above, it is perfectly possible to state a figure that will ensure you and the employer are in the same ballpark and still leave negotiating room.[/QUOTE]

You would be correct if we were talking about a Canadian worker, but a newbie from the UK really does have difficulty not only knowing what a reasonable salary here is, but also knowing what a certain figure translates to in terms of standard of living compared to their UK salary.

We always tell people on here to be careful about the conversion, telling them, "you earn a dollar, you spend a dollar".
How come now we are expecting people coming fresh from the UK to know what represents a reasonable salary in any given job in any locality?

It is still recent enough for me to remember that it was really difficult, so I sympathise with the OP because it is not easy to judge from a distance.

JamesM

I'd take it back a step and say people shouldn't come to Canada unless they know what the salary level is in the destination they plan to live.

Too bigger leap of faith not knowing.

helcat12

That is unrealistic, James. People do it all the time. If they didn't, BC would have virtually no immigrants.
Cost of living is so variable that you really have to suck it and see.
That is why TWP is such a good idea.
Try before you buy.

kswoosh

Probably the most moronic thing I have heard today.

With no disrespect to you, of course, you're just posting what you've read. But that is absolute tosh.

People have this crazy idea that Vancouver is expensive, and all I can say is that, compared to many cities, I would actually consider it to be cheap.

I was paying $900 to live in a 1 bedroom apartment downtown, the equivalent of about £6-700. You try finding a place in London for that... You're looking at double, easily.

helcat12

It was said MANY times by the Vancouver set on here, I assure you.
Several people disagreed at the time, but they wouldn't be budged.
It is interesting that you also disagree with their $100k minimum assessment.

As I said, there are cheaper and IMHO, much nicer places to live than that, anyway. Depends on your preference. I wouldn't live in Vancouver if you paid me, but lots of people seem to like it.

Alan2005

I was paying $3k five years ago. But then I lived in a fancy place.

Oakvillian

If an applicant is so far out of alignment in terms of salary expectation having read the job description, then I have little sympathy that they are wasting their time. If an employer is so far out of line in matching salary to role description, they will get no appropriate candidates through the first screening interview. Again, I have little sympathy.


...and they'll see that very quickly in reviewing the resume that accompanies the application. It's not difficult to spot the wildly underqualified, just as it's not hard to spot the wildly overqualified. In the latter case, there might be a good reason for the candidate wanting to take a step down the financial ladder: a conversation between the HR exec and a hiring manager should quickly identify if any of the overqualified candidates are interesting enough to pursue enquiries.

No, I don't think it does. A recruitment ad is a public document, there for all to see including competitors and current employees of the organization. A job application, including any expression of salary expectations, is a private correspondence between the candidate and the recruiter. Very different circumstances.

How many times does this happen - that an employer is so far below the market that there's no common ground at all? I'd suggest it's not a waste of time even if it does occur: you have invested a little effort in avoiding a poor employer; they have learned that they need to pay more if they want a good candidate. They may re-set expectations and come back to you if they realise their error; if not, they're not running the kind of operation you'd want to work for anyway. Time not wasted.

Edited to add: of course, it might be different for contract positions. My views are based on being hired as, and subsequently hiring, permanent staff.

JonboyE

But aren't these two different issues?

a) What is a fair salary for a job, and
b) how much do you need to live the lifestyle that you want in your preferred location?

a) is pretty easy to find out.
b) you can research and research and research and get somewhere near but it is always going to be a leap of faith. Just one of the joys of emigration.