DaveTheCat

It may not be a function, but it is a result. Among other similar things

(Nice pun! ) I suggested that "multiculturalism", having become a PC Gospel, is being abused, leading to all sorts of situations that wouldn't be otherwise tolerated in a Western society (apartheid, as you mentioned, religious interference in non-religious matters/spaces etc) - while (according to Wikipedia), multiculturalism proponents "assume it will lead to interculturalism - beneficial cultural exchanges, where cultures learn about each other's literature, art and philosophy (high culture), and influence each other's music, fashion and cuisine".

"The advantages of accepting the inevitability"? Marcus Aurelius or Kurt Vonnegut ("so it goes")? The society IS diverse (and always has been); why do we need a doctrine to state the obvious in an annoyingly millitant tone (which resembles the fascist "Get used to it!")? what's wrong with Startwin's position on the matter (post #39, par 2)?

dbd33

This "As for various beliefs, nothing wrong with holding on to your ethnic beliefs and culture. You just shouldn't impose them on others - far too many different ethnic groups so we should just do our best to be tolerant and considerate. In other words, decent human beings." ?

Nothing. But it's not me who expects Canadians to speak English or French; I don't try to impose my language on the neighbours.

DaveTheCat

Oh, c'mon. I never tried to impose my language on the neighbours. I said that a society has to have at least one language spoken by all its members to function well. Let's take India, for example: English is an official language there (along with several others). Why do you think they chose to have it, even if it's NOT the primary language for most of the Indians? to accomodate the tiny community of native English-speakers? or did they realise the advantages of a lingua franca that can be used by thousands of communities, each one with its own language, when dealing with government issues, hospitals etc?
And, by the way, India is where multiculturalism began (cf. Wikipedia).

MikeUK

Why?

It needs to be able to comunicate effectively I agree, but that is not the same as a common language!

dbd33

"Chose to have it" is a bit strong. I believe we conquered the country and imposed our language upon the inhabitants.

DaveTheCat

In 1950 (when multiculturalism first appeared) they had gained their independence. Of course, had it been the French instead of the British, they would have probably chosen French as their lingua franca - but the point is they saw the advantages of having a lingua franca (OK, several ones in their specific case - let's remember there are more than 1,000 languages spoken in India - imagine not "the possibilities", but the chaos of having institutions that need to be able to work in all those languages).

DaveTheCat

And how would you communicate effectively with someone whose language you're not able to speak and who doesn't speak yours? The only solution is a third language, one that is spoken by both parties. That's what a lingua franca is. How do you think ethnic minorities communicate with one another in Canada (or elsewhere, for that matter)?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lingua_franca

dbd33

We manage remarkably well here without having one, just over half the population speak English as a mother tongue.

http://www.toronto.ca/quality_of_life/diversity.htm

Many, but not all, of the remainder do of course speak English but all significant services are offered in all the common languages. The only downside I can see is that the fyer announcing recycling day itself fills the recycling bin.

How is calling for a lingua franca not imposing your choice of language on the neighbours? Would you learn Cantonese if that proved to be the second language of most people?

MikeUK

Nope, direct translation, or symbolic referances
You forget that the structure of all these languages are known and so do not need a intermediate language.

DaveTheCat

Er... beg pardon? could you, please, describe a scene where you use symbolic references as a form of dialogue with a notary public? or a doctor? or over the phone?

MikeUK

don't need to..

That's were direct translation would be used....

DaveTheCat

...which IS a lingua franca for them.

What is the threshold for a language to become common? who decides that pervasive functional structures are to be created to accomodate a group or another? why would the taxpayers' mass need to pay for the creation/maintenance of the aforementioned structures, just because a certain group refuses to use a lingua franca?

Because a lingua franca is something pragmatic! A native Punjabi speaker communicates with a native Bengali speaker in English, because it simplifies life and operations at a social level for both parties. Throughout history, multi-ethnic states have used their own lingua franca. What seems to be the problem with such a tool nowadays?

Why, yes, of course. I'm not promoting English as THE lingua franca; in Canada, however, it happens to be the language spoken by nearly all of its inhabitants (native and non-native speakers), thus making it the first choice when it comes to having a lingua franca. Maybe 30 years from now Mandarin/Cantonese speakers will surpass French speakers. In that case, I'd certainly see the utility of making Mandarin/Cantonese the third official language in Canada. Again, it's just a matter of pragmatism.

dbd33

The short answer is because that is what defines Canada. This is the land of multiculturalism and language is central to culture.



French is, I believe, the tenth most commonly spoken language in Toronto. It's probable that a higher proportion of French speakers (the ones from Quebec) know some English than Cantonese speakers, so if this was a matter for pragmatism, French would already have been replaced as the second official language here.

From the link I provided earlier, the mother tongue of residents here is:

English 2,684,195
Italian 195,960
Chinese, n.o.s. 165,120
Cantonese 145,490
Portuguese 108,935
Punjabi 95,950
Spanish 83,245
Polish 79,875
Tagalog (Pilipino) 77,220
Tamil 72,715
French 57,485

(many, many, more, English comes out at 56%)

DaveTheCat

Allrighty, then (even if this implies that Canada willingly sacrifices efficiency for the sake of the god-like Multiculturalissimo). You still haven't answered my question re. the threshold. Who decides to plunge the government's already greedy appendices into our pockets, just to accomodate the linguistic needs of a certain group (whose members couldn't be bovvered to learn the language(s) of the country they chose as their second home)? how and when is this decision taken? when the group reaches a certain number? what number would that be? or is it sufficient for a group to be vociferous enough? in that case, there'd be a problem: if they are fluent enough in English/French to broadcast their message of linguistic discontent, why would they need special structures for their social needs?
Please note that I'm talking about groups of migrants here (i.e. statistically significant), not about Grannie Liu from Shanghai, who had a malaise while she was visiting her relatives who migrated to Toronto, and needed someone to bridge the gap between her and the doctor on duty who does not speak Mandarin.


It certainly IS a matter of pragmatism, as they chose to speak English ("when in Rome..."), because they realised that life would be easier for them if they spoke English in Toronto, even though their language is an official language in this country.

dbd33

Who currenty decides? I suppose the government decides based on their whim. Factors would include:

- number of speakers of the language
- age of the speakers; no point in hiring French speaking kindergarten teachers now, but the city does need such teachers fluent in Asian languages
- political clout of the speakers, they need not all speak English to have power, but can elect someone from thier number who does. If they have to go to court they can use interpreters.

It's not a matter of not being bothered. Canada in general and Toronto in particular claims to be multicultural, it invites people to live here in their own language.


Well no, if they're from Quebec they would know English from visiting Florida. If they're not from Quebec they may or may not know English, my children finished high school (at Jarvis and Carlton in Toronto) without ever having a Maths teacher who spoke enough English to shop. Their Maths teachers (typically Algerians or Morrocans) were in the same situation as the Koreans on this block, completely dependent on the government issuing information in their language.