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Jun 21st 2002 | 4:56 pm
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Memo on Mark Davidson’s presentation to AICC
To: AICC members
From: Joe Kenney, 1st National V.P.
RE: Meeting on Feb. 12/02 at the Royal York in Toronto
Date: Feb. 14/02
For those of you that were unable to make it to the meeting held earlier this week at the Royal York in Toronto, I have attached a copy of the Power Point presentation given by Mark Davidson, Director, Economic Policy and Programs, Selection Branch, CIC NHQ.
As you can imagine, there were many questions and concerns raised by the 60 or so AICC members and guests in attendance. So, although Mark was presenting primarily on information already contained in the proposed regulations for Bill C-11 that were pre-published on December 15th, there was some new information that came to light.
I will try to summarise this new information below. (I suggest that you review the attached Power Point file before reading this.)
n Mark did not concede that anything related to the retroactive application of the new regulations or the new selection grid would necessarily be changed. But he said he welcomed comments and criticisms and that this was the whole point of pre-publication: To get the views of stakeholders and the public.
n He did acknowledge that the new Minister is open to change and that the regulations may undergo some changes before they are implemented.
n He defended the need for retroactive application of the new regulations on two grounds: 1) the need to select a different type of, and better quality skilled worker; and 2) as a means of dealing with the huge backlog of applications that have accumulated. Processing this backlog according to two different systems would mean that it would take 5 years before applicants would actually be selected under the new grid. This, in CIC’s view, is not in the best interests of Canada. Moreover, there are more applications being received than are required to meet targets. The new selection grid will allow CIC to manage the intake better.
n Many questions and comments were raised with respect to the data used in the Regulatory Impact Analysis Statement (RIAS) to demonstrate that skilled workers that came in the 1980’s are not performing quite as well economically as those that came in the 90’s. Mark defended the data and seems to see it as one of main justifications for the specific changes to the selection criteria, ex., increase in emphasis in education as a selection factor.
n Mark noted that CIC expects to develop 4-5 years down the road a system of educational equivalency assessment that will determine how foreign degrees measure up to Canadian degrees and allot points for education on this basis. That will eliminate the need to count total years of education. So, in the future, some foreign degrees will be given more weight than others. But this kind of system is not available at the moment.
n With regard to language, CIC plans to designate certain testing systems like IELTS as providing proof of language ability through their test results. TOELF will not be used. But there will be more than one choice available to applicants. Another testing system is being developed by UBC. Language testing will not be mandatory. But it will be encouraged. Under the current practice in Beijing and Hong Kong, an IELTS score of 5.5 is generally accepted as indicating English abilities of “well�. It is expected that this score will be in the range of what is required to get points for “moderate proficiency� under the new selection criteria. Based on this, we can surmise that “High proficiency� will likely require a score of 6.5 or higher.
n With regard to experience, Mark confirmed that an applicant can, under the new selection grid, obtain points under different occupations that can then be added together to score 25 points. Ex., 3 years as a baker, and one as a brain surgeon could get you 25 points. As long as all the occupations are at the required skill level. Mark also said that the work experience does not have to be gained after graduation. He indicated that co-op or apprenticeship experience could count as work experience. But when I asked him how this would affect the count for total years of education – i.e, can a year count for education and work experience at the same time? – he didn’t have an answer.
n With regard to the informal job offer, Mark acknowledged that CIC hasn’t figured out how this is going to work exactly. The visa offices are asking a lot of questions about this too. In all likelihood, the job offer will have to be consistent to previous education and work experience. Visa officers will “look behind� the job offer. They will be required to confirm that the company does exist and that the applicant has the background to fill the position that is being offered. But there will be no detailed requirements that companies offering jobs will be required to meet as per HRDC validations. More information on the meaning of “genuine job offer� will be contained in the new application kits and in the CIC manuals when they are published.
n Under the new selection criteria, it will no longer be possible to ask the visa officer to assess both a husband and wife as principal applicants. The decision as to who is the “PA� must be made by the applicants themselves prior to submitting the application and will not be reviewed or second guessed by the visa officer. To get both applicants of a couple assessed under the new system, it would require the submission of two sets of application forms and two sets of processing fees, i.e, $1000 CDN x 2.
n Mark said that CIC is still viewing June 28, 2002 as the target date for implementation. But he more or less acknowledged that this is not a sure thing. There is an enormous amount of work to be done before the Department will be ready for implementation. This includes training, writing manuals, designing application kits, etc. At this point, the Department can only train on the Act, since the Regulations are not finalised yet. The Regulations will not be finalised until some time after March 15th. So that doesn’t leave a lot of time.
n According to Mark, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Immigration will publish its report on March 15th. The Department will then, some time after that, finalise the Regulations after they are approved by the Special Committee of Cabinet. They will become effective on the date of publication or on a date named at the time of publication.
n Mark made it clear that CIC is using a higher pass mark for skilled worker as a means of reducing the number of applications that are coming in, thereby giving them an opportunity to reduce the backlog. Generally, it seems CIC is aiming in the long term to gain greater control over the intake of applications to avoid future backlogs.
n As for the requirement that applicants apply only at their country of habitual residence, this is in the Regulations but will not be enforced for the time being. Immediately after implementation, CIC will allow applicants to continue to apply at any visa office. Every office will serve every country. But eventually, they will get around to designating which visa offices are responsible for which countries. At that time (maybe a couple of years down the road), this regulation will be enforced and applicants will only be able to apply at the office responsible for their country of residence.
n Mark didn’t have time to complete the entire presentation. He got to the end of the section on skilled workers and that was it. So there wasn’t a chance to discuss students and temporary workers. He did say that there is “more work to be done� on aspects of the selection criteria for skilled workers. This indicates that there may be some tinkering before implementation comes. Specifically, he seemed to acknowledge that this grid doesn’t really allow for skilled trades persons to qualify. Nor does it allow students who have earned degrees here as foreign students and then worked for a year in Canada to qualify. He seemed to want to address these deficiencies.
After Mark finished, our dearly beloved president, John Ryan, spoke briefly and forcefully with respect to the problems we have with the Regulations. He made it clear that AICC is very much against retroactivity and maintaining such a high pass mark for skilled workers, among other things.
That was followed by a nice lunch sponsored by RCI, the Quebec investor fund. Then in the afternoon, we heard from two Members of Parliament, Jim Karygiannis, MP, Scarborough – Agincourt (Liberal), and Steve Mahoney, MP, Mississauga West (Liberal), Vice-Chair of the Standing Committee on Immigration. Both seemed very much on our side on a number of issues related to the proposed regulations. They also seemed cautiously optimistic about positive changes being made before implementation. Thanks to John’s technical wizardry, both of these speeches will be available for viewing on our website. So I won’t give further details. You can see for yourself.
Let me know if you have any questions on any of the above.
Joe Kenney
To: AICC members
From: Joe Kenney, 1st National V.P.
RE: Meeting on Feb. 12/02 at the Royal York in Toronto
Date: Feb. 14/02
For those of you that were unable to make it to the meeting held earlier this week at the Royal York in Toronto, I have attached a copy of the Power Point presentation given by Mark Davidson, Director, Economic Policy and Programs, Selection Branch, CIC NHQ.
As you can imagine, there were many questions and concerns raised by the 60 or so AICC members and guests in attendance. So, although Mark was presenting primarily on information already contained in the proposed regulations for Bill C-11 that were pre-published on December 15th, there was some new information that came to light.
I will try to summarise this new information below. (I suggest that you review the attached Power Point file before reading this.)
n Mark did not concede that anything related to the retroactive application of the new regulations or the new selection grid would necessarily be changed. But he said he welcomed comments and criticisms and that this was the whole point of pre-publication: To get the views of stakeholders and the public.
n He did acknowledge that the new Minister is open to change and that the regulations may undergo some changes before they are implemented.
n He defended the need for retroactive application of the new regulations on two grounds: 1) the need to select a different type of, and better quality skilled worker; and 2) as a means of dealing with the huge backlog of applications that have accumulated. Processing this backlog according to two different systems would mean that it would take 5 years before applicants would actually be selected under the new grid. This, in CIC’s view, is not in the best interests of Canada. Moreover, there are more applications being received than are required to meet targets. The new selection grid will allow CIC to manage the intake better.
n Many questions and comments were raised with respect to the data used in the Regulatory Impact Analysis Statement (RIAS) to demonstrate that skilled workers that came in the 1980’s are not performing quite as well economically as those that came in the 90’s. Mark defended the data and seems to see it as one of main justifications for the specific changes to the selection criteria, ex., increase in emphasis in education as a selection factor.
n Mark noted that CIC expects to develop 4-5 years down the road a system of educational equivalency assessment that will determine how foreign degrees measure up to Canadian degrees and allot points for education on this basis. That will eliminate the need to count total years of education. So, in the future, some foreign degrees will be given more weight than others. But this kind of system is not available at the moment.
n With regard to language, CIC plans to designate certain testing systems like IELTS as providing proof of language ability through their test results. TOELF will not be used. But there will be more than one choice available to applicants. Another testing system is being developed by UBC. Language testing will not be mandatory. But it will be encouraged. Under the current practice in Beijing and Hong Kong, an IELTS score of 5.5 is generally accepted as indicating English abilities of “well�. It is expected that this score will be in the range of what is required to get points for “moderate proficiency� under the new selection criteria. Based on this, we can surmise that “High proficiency� will likely require a score of 6.5 or higher.
n With regard to experience, Mark confirmed that an applicant can, under the new selection grid, obtain points under different occupations that can then be added together to score 25 points. Ex., 3 years as a baker, and one as a brain surgeon could get you 25 points. As long as all the occupations are at the required skill level. Mark also said that the work experience does not have to be gained after graduation. He indicated that co-op or apprenticeship experience could count as work experience. But when I asked him how this would affect the count for total years of education – i.e, can a year count for education and work experience at the same time? – he didn’t have an answer.
n With regard to the informal job offer, Mark acknowledged that CIC hasn’t figured out how this is going to work exactly. The visa offices are asking a lot of questions about this too. In all likelihood, the job offer will have to be consistent to previous education and work experience. Visa officers will “look behind� the job offer. They will be required to confirm that the company does exist and that the applicant has the background to fill the position that is being offered. But there will be no detailed requirements that companies offering jobs will be required to meet as per HRDC validations. More information on the meaning of “genuine job offer� will be contained in the new application kits and in the CIC manuals when they are published.
n Under the new selection criteria, it will no longer be possible to ask the visa officer to assess both a husband and wife as principal applicants. The decision as to who is the “PA� must be made by the applicants themselves prior to submitting the application and will not be reviewed or second guessed by the visa officer. To get both applicants of a couple assessed under the new system, it would require the submission of two sets of application forms and two sets of processing fees, i.e, $1000 CDN x 2.
n Mark said that CIC is still viewing June 28, 2002 as the target date for implementation. But he more or less acknowledged that this is not a sure thing. There is an enormous amount of work to be done before the Department will be ready for implementation. This includes training, writing manuals, designing application kits, etc. At this point, the Department can only train on the Act, since the Regulations are not finalised yet. The Regulations will not be finalised until some time after March 15th. So that doesn’t leave a lot of time.
n According to Mark, the House of Commons Standing Committee on Immigration will publish its report on March 15th. The Department will then, some time after that, finalise the Regulations after they are approved by the Special Committee of Cabinet. They will become effective on the date of publication or on a date named at the time of publication.
n Mark made it clear that CIC is using a higher pass mark for skilled worker as a means of reducing the number of applications that are coming in, thereby giving them an opportunity to reduce the backlog. Generally, it seems CIC is aiming in the long term to gain greater control over the intake of applications to avoid future backlogs.
n As for the requirement that applicants apply only at their country of habitual residence, this is in the Regulations but will not be enforced for the time being. Immediately after implementation, CIC will allow applicants to continue to apply at any visa office. Every office will serve every country. But eventually, they will get around to designating which visa offices are responsible for which countries. At that time (maybe a couple of years down the road), this regulation will be enforced and applicants will only be able to apply at the office responsible for their country of residence.
n Mark didn’t have time to complete the entire presentation. He got to the end of the section on skilled workers and that was it. So there wasn’t a chance to discuss students and temporary workers. He did say that there is “more work to be done� on aspects of the selection criteria for skilled workers. This indicates that there may be some tinkering before implementation comes. Specifically, he seemed to acknowledge that this grid doesn’t really allow for skilled trades persons to qualify. Nor does it allow students who have earned degrees here as foreign students and then worked for a year in Canada to qualify. He seemed to want to address these deficiencies.
After Mark finished, our dearly beloved president, John Ryan, spoke briefly and forcefully with respect to the problems we have with the Regulations. He made it clear that AICC is very much against retroactivity and maintaining such a high pass mark for skilled workers, among other things.
That was followed by a nice lunch sponsored by RCI, the Quebec investor fund. Then in the afternoon, we heard from two Members of Parliament, Jim Karygiannis, MP, Scarborough – Agincourt (Liberal), and Steve Mahoney, MP, Mississauga West (Liberal), Vice-Chair of the Standing Committee on Immigration. Both seemed very much on our side on a number of issues related to the proposed regulations. They also seemed cautiously optimistic about positive changes being made before implementation. Thanks to John’s technical wizardry, both of these speeches will be available for viewing on our website. So I won’t give further details. You can see for yourself.
Let me know if you have any questions on any of the above.
Joe Kenney
