Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Sep 8th 2010, 2:45 pm
#106
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
A was a child of a single parent family (my father died when I was 9 and left us with, virtually, nothing). I have two siblings.
My mother worked as a cleaner, dishwasher etc. anything to keep a roof over our heads. I put myself through University (as a mature student I did not qualify for free tuition, and I was the first in my family to do so. I also lived in a rural community so I appear to fall directly into the category you have referred to.
I took out out a loan from a bank (can`t remember what it was called now but it provided for repayment of the loan 2 months after the course started. I choose not to live lavishly during my time as a student.
It is possible, one simply has to get away from the "society owes me everything" attitude and accept that one has to save for items and that one has to cut one`s clothes according to one`s cloth. Revolutionary concepts these days I know, but possible none the less.
Of course it may have been easier if I had rich parents although, had I done so, maybe I wouldn`t have the drive to succeed that I do. Who knows?
My mother worked as a cleaner, dishwasher etc. anything to keep a roof over our heads. I put myself through University (as a mature student I did not qualify for free tuition, and I was the first in my family to do so. I also lived in a rural community so I appear to fall directly into the category you have referred to.
I took out out a loan from a bank (can`t remember what it was called now but it provided for repayment of the loan 2 months after the course started. I choose not to live lavishly during my time as a student.
It is possible, one simply has to get away from the "society owes me everything" attitude and accept that one has to save for items and that one has to cut one`s clothes according to one`s cloth. Revolutionary concepts these days I know, but possible none the less.
Of course it may have been easier if I had rich parents although, had I done so, maybe I wouldn`t have the drive to succeed that I do. Who knows?
However, I believe that lack of funding for university is a huge factor in the decision making of poorer families. In some cases, it is just not possible to continue a degree when you haven't then money to support yourself. Therefore, whether the barrier is tangible or perceived, financial barriers exist for the less well off students. I don't think that the following accurately sums up the reality for many "One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities".
Sep 8th 2010, 3:32 pm
#107
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
degree schmee. Vocational/trades study is where it's at. 
We are already saving for little one's college, but I'll be interested to see what the lay of the land is like when she graduates. I don't agree with the Canadian system of having to get a first degree before applying for law etc - seems a discouragement to lower-income students.
We are already saving for little one's college, but I'll be interested to see what the lay of the land is like when she graduates. I don't agree with the Canadian system of having to get a first degree before applying for law etc - seems a discouragement to lower-income students.
Last edited by ExKiwilass; Sep 8th 2010 at 3:36 pm.
Sep 8th 2010, 4:04 pm
#108
Forum Regular
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 57
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
"Net migration to Britain rose by 20% to 196,000 last year, fuelled by a sharp increase in the number of overseas students coming to the UK to study and a 13% fall in the number of Britons leaving to live abroad."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/au...o-uk-increases
Dogs. Going. Not?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/au...o-uk-increases
Dogs. Going. Not?
Sep 8th 2010, 4:27 pm
#109
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
It's much more difficult to get into med school in Canada compared to the UK.
It's much more difficult to get into law school in Canada compared to the UK.
There are hardly any "real" finance jobs in Canada, many Canadian students dream of working in London or NY.
Its just as hard to become a Chartered Accountant in Canada as it is in the UK.
Engineering is no different.
IT ?
It's much more difficult to get into law school in Canada compared to the UK.
There are hardly any "real" finance jobs in Canada, many Canadian students dream of working in London or NY.
Its just as hard to become a Chartered Accountant in Canada as it is in the UK.
Engineering is no different.
IT ?
so in other words, finance, lawyering and medical professions are better ....there's a hell of a lot more than such specialized fields you know
Granted i remember UK of the 1980's but there was a very pervasive attitude of "you can't do that" at the time. Those of us from working class backgrounds were expected to accpet our lot in life. Certainly one can buck the trend, but i found that the attitude here was reversed and easier when one is encouraged instead of put down.
Sep 8th 2010, 4:42 pm
#110
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Doesn`t the above support my argument and adversely affect your argument (that prospects are easier in Canada)?
I worked full time while studying part time in the evenings. I finished second in my class (full time and part time). Yes, some students may have had it "easier" due to having affluent parents. They were usually the ones that didn`t care and had a shitty attitude for a student.
One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities, or one can do something about it. I know which category is the more likely to "succeed", whatever that means.
People in England and Canada, when learning what I do for a living, are very quick to make judgements about how easy I have had it. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don`t live a lavish lifestyle and have never felt the need to "prove" myself to others by the clothes I wear or the car I drive (as a previous post attests to
).
I worked full time while studying part time in the evenings. I finished second in my class (full time and part time). Yes, some students may have had it "easier" due to having affluent parents. They were usually the ones that didn`t care and had a shitty attitude for a student.
One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities, or one can do something about it. I know which category is the more likely to "succeed", whatever that means.
People in England and Canada, when learning what I do for a living, are very quick to make judgements about how easy I have had it. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don`t live a lavish lifestyle and have never felt the need to "prove" myself to others by the clothes I wear or the car I drive (as a previous post attests to
).My parents were a window cleaner and a meat processor at Walls. I certainly could not have afforded to do this in the UK, with the terrible wages that were the norm at the time nor could my parents help me. I was expected to be contributing at 16 - i left and home and joined the Navy as a seaman.
Canada was easier from both a financial and motivational point of view. Specific to me of course.
Your argument assumes that one can get a good enough job to support one while attending post secondary - many can't.
Drive is essential with or without funds but I daresay the latter is at a major disadvantage. Attitude may not be everything it seems.
Sep 8th 2010, 4:48 pm
#111
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 3,054
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Kudos to you however, I think the fact that you and I did it does not detract from the reality that kids from families that are scraping by are less likely to end up at university, let alone thrive in it. Of course, a driven student of any financial means will do well, perhaps more so when they see the alternative to not pursuing higher education.
However, I believe that lack of funding for university is a huge factor in the decision making of poorer families. In some cases, it is just not possible to continue a degree when you haven't then money to support yourself. Therefore, whether the barrier is tangible or perceived, financial barriers exist for the less well off students. I don't think that the following accurately sums up the reality for many "One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities".
However, I believe that lack of funding for university is a huge factor in the decision making of poorer families. In some cases, it is just not possible to continue a degree when you haven't then money to support yourself. Therefore, whether the barrier is tangible or perceived, financial barriers exist for the less well off students. I don't think that the following accurately sums up the reality for many "One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities".
The same attitude existed in inner city modern secondary comps as I remember in the early 1980's. Career classes consisted of filling in applications for local factories, pursing all but vanished apprenticeships, the armed forces and trade school. I don't remember anything about Uni, or higher education.
Thankfully we realize as we age that we can buck the norm, but for many by that age, the burdern of mortagages, family etc is simply too much.
Sep 8th 2010, 6:55 pm
#112
Slob
Joined: Sep 2009
Location: Ottineau
Posts: 6,342
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
so in other words, finance, lawyering and medical professions are better ....there's a hell of a lot more than such specialized fields you know
Granted i remember UK of the 1980's but there was a very pervasive attitude of "you can't do that" at the time. Those of us from working class backgrounds were expected to accpet our lot in life. Certainly one can buck the trend, but i found that the attitude here was reversed and easier when one is encouraged instead of put down.
Granted i remember UK of the 1980's but there was a very pervasive attitude of "you can't do that" at the time. Those of us from working class backgrounds were expected to accpet our lot in life. Certainly one can buck the trend, but i found that the attitude here was reversed and easier when one is encouraged instead of put down.
Sep 8th 2010, 7:23 pm
#113
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,378
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
so in other words, finance, lawyering and medical professions are better ....there's a hell of a lot more than such specialized fields you know
Granted i remember UK of the 1980's but there was a very pervasive attitude of "you can't do that" at the time. Those of us from working class backgrounds were expected to accpet our lot in life. Certainly one can buck the trend, but i found that the attitude here was reversed and easier when one is encouraged instead of put down.
Granted i remember UK of the 1980's but there was a very pervasive attitude of "you can't do that" at the time. Those of us from working class backgrounds were expected to accpet our lot in life. Certainly one can buck the trend, but i found that the attitude here was reversed and easier when one is encouraged instead of put down.
A parallel could be drawn to those in Canada born to First Nations parents. If such attitudes do exist, they don`t exist across the whole of Canadian society, just like, I suspect, they didn`t exist across the whole of UK society when you were a lad
Sep 8th 2010, 7:35 pm
#114
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,378
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
However, I believe that lack of funding for university is a huge factor in the decision making of poorer families. In some cases, it is just not possible to continue a degree when you haven't then money to support yourself. Therefore, whether the barrier is tangible or perceived, financial barriers exist for the less well off students. I don't think that the following accurately sums up the reality for many "One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities".
If I was an ethnic minority lesbian I suspect that I would be able to place myself into just about every box on a consensus form that would suggest I am massively disadvantaged.
It is much, much easier to say that life hasn`t given you the opportunities that to make an effort, fail, pick yourself up, and try again. INVHO, too many people are not prepared to accept that it is laziness and lack of drive that has placed them where they are. It is much easier to say "I would be able to but for ....." inserting whatever crap they wish to insert [my arse is too big, my face is too brown, my physical disabilities are too great, etc., etc.]
I accept many poorer students will have to watch their finances more closely than those of more affluent peers. But to suggest that Johnny Montegue only got his degree because is father is the CEO of International Big Knob Inc. is bullshit.
Look at the number of people on this forum that have degrees. How many of them were the offspring of aristocracy? I suspect that most worked during their education, some would have to do so less than others. Life isn`t fair. The only person that can change one`s current situation is the person they see when they look in the mirror.
Sep 8th 2010, 7:44 pm
#115
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Actually dboy is correct, especially before the middle 1990s, there were many variables that helped to exclude working class kids and privilege middle class kids. The British higher educational system was founded on social differentiation, one only has to look at the Educational Act of 1944. Up until recently 'university' was seen by a majority of working class kids as an unfamiliar and foreboding place. A view that most secondary-modern schools fostered. The idea that attending university was free for all is a bit of a misnomer, in reality it was social assistance for the middle and upper classes. Its true that a few persistent and fortunate working class kids gained entry to higher education, but in 'general' the educational system institutionalized the notion that working class kids were failures and thus deserved to get their working class jobs.
Sep 8th 2010, 7:48 pm
#116
Lost in BE Cyberspace
Joined: Aug 2005
Location: South of Calgary
Posts: 13,378
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
Actually dboy is correct, especially before the middle 1990s, there were many variables that helped to exclude working class kids and privilege middle class kids. The British higher educational system was founded on social differentiation, one only has to look at the Educational Act of 1944. Up until recently 'university' was seen by a majority of working class kids as an unfamiliar and foreboding place. A view that most secondary-modern schools fostered. The idea that attending university was free for all is a bit of a misnomer, in reality it was social assistance for the middle and upper classes. Its true that a few persistent and fortunate working class kids gained entry to higher education, but in 'general' the educational system institutionalized the notion that working class kids were failures and thus deserved to get their working class jobs.
Sep 8th 2010, 7:56 pm
#117
.
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 20,185
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
While it seems counter intuitive, a fee based system actually provides greater access for working class/minority students. The old UK system had to ration places while a more market based approach creates more places. A market driven system with specialized loans and means based-scholarships, seems to provide broader access.
Sep 8th 2010, 8:15 pm
#118
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,139
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
I am, clinically, disabled. I have been for some time. I am a Type I diabetic. I have attended diabetic clinics surrounded by hideously obese patients stuffing their faces with Mars Bars "in case they have a hypoglycaemic episode". I have never had to eat a Mars Bar to avoid such an episode.
If I was an ethnic minority lesbian I suspect that I would be able to place myself into just about every box on a consensus form that would suggest I am massively disadvantaged.
It is much, much easier to say that life hasn`t given you the opportunities that to make an effort, fail, pick yourself up, and try again. INVHO, too many people are not prepared to accept that it is laziness and lack of drive that has placed them where they are. It is much easier to say "I would be able to but for ....." inserting whatever crap they wish to insert [my arse is too big, my face is too brown, my physical disabilities are too great, etc., etc.]
I accept many poorer students will have to watch their finances more closely than those of more affluent peers. But to suggest that Johnny Montegue only got his degree because is father is the CEO of International Big Knob Inc. is bullshit.
Look at the number of people on this forum that have degrees. How many of them were the offspring of aristocracy? I suspect that most worked during their education, some would have to do so less than others. Life isn`t fair. The only person that can change one`s current situation is the person they see when they look in the mirror.
If I was an ethnic minority lesbian I suspect that I would be able to place myself into just about every box on a consensus form that would suggest I am massively disadvantaged.
It is much, much easier to say that life hasn`t given you the opportunities that to make an effort, fail, pick yourself up, and try again. INVHO, too many people are not prepared to accept that it is laziness and lack of drive that has placed them where they are. It is much easier to say "I would be able to but for ....." inserting whatever crap they wish to insert [my arse is too big, my face is too brown, my physical disabilities are too great, etc., etc.]
I accept many poorer students will have to watch their finances more closely than those of more affluent peers. But to suggest that Johnny Montegue only got his degree because is father is the CEO of International Big Knob Inc. is bullshit.
Look at the number of people on this forum that have degrees. How many of them were the offspring of aristocracy? I suspect that most worked during their education, some would have to do so less than others. Life isn`t fair. The only person that can change one`s current situation is the person they see when they look in the mirror.
Anyway, my disagreement is that you seem to be painting everyone who falls under the "broke family, too broke to afford university or too broke to finish the degree" category as hand wringing whingers who are blaming other people for their misfortune. This, I disagree with and I can see no evidence on this thread that anyone has suggested it is so. This is not my experience, neither as a broke student, nor as someone who encountered broke students at work. No one was bemoaning the world as being to blame for them "not having opportunities". The fact of the matter is, if you can't afford the degree, you aren't getting to go to university.
Next you will be claiming that all working class people should be driving a Lexus. After all, they can work hard for it, they can save for it, they can get a loan for it and pay it off for the rest of their lives. In reality, not everyone wants a Lexus, or more specifically, not everyone is willing or able to accept the level of financial risk and committment to get the Lexus.
To say that laziness and lack of drive stops poor families from sending their children to university just smacks of arrogance. At least be gracious and accept that although you were able to do it, not everyone else is.
Sep 8th 2010, 8:26 pm
#119
slanderer of the innocent
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Vancouver, BC
Posts: 6,695
Re: Population not fleeing UK, shock.
While it seems counter intuitive, a fee based system actually provides greater access for working class/minority students. The old UK system had to ration places while a more market based approach creates more places. A market driven system with specialized loans and means based-scholarships, seems to provide broader access.