Souvy

Read 'dark/eastern European'.

starchief

And in Canada, one of 'them' will be you. Perhaps you'd better stay in your own country. Canada is full of foreigners.

Souvy

Whether or not you are deemed to be 'one of them' depends, I think on where you come from.

A couple of years back I was in a taxi. The driver was a pure wool Quebecker and laying into immigrants like there was no tomorrow. I pointed out that I am an immigrant. Apparently, I'm not. I'm 'part of the family' (his words). That, of course, had nothing to do with my being white.

99problems

The only bad immigrants are those who seek to rely financially on the state from the outset and those who make no effort to integrate.

Applying down the SW route we have independent means of earning and supporting ourselves as well as an intention to embed in Canadian society if there is such a thing. Its been well discussed earlier in this thread that outward immigration from the UK has not shot up because people feel insecure in a recession and dont feel minded to make life changing decisions.

I believe immigration will rise again in 12-24 months once it becomes clear that we are out recession and the "cost" of the recession begins to bite through higher taxes etc impacting on living standards. Those educated and qualified are best placed to use this to their advantage as they are the most attractive class of immigrant to any growing economy - Canada also seems to have a stable and balanced economy and system of regulating banks - a big plus for me.

dbd33

I make no effort to integrate. How would I be a better immigrant if I were to wear more plaid?

Blendin

It's much more difficult to get into med school in Canada compared to the UK.

It's much more difficult to get into law school in Canada compared to the UK.

There are hardly any "real" finance jobs in Canada, many Canadian students dream of working in London or NY.

Its just as hard to become a Chartered Accountant in Canada as it is in the UK.

Engineering is no different.

IT ?

dbd33

That depends on what you consider to be the barriers to entry. It seems to me that perception of opportunity is critical. There are, in either country, children who have an expectation of success and those, equally bright, who do not believe that they can kick open the door to this type of career. I'm confident in saying that my emigration moved my children from the latter group to the former, though the extent to which this was due to being children of immigrants rather than being in Canada is difficult to determine.

Beyond a child thinking he, or she, has a shot, funding is the critical factor. For people aged 31 or more now the UK was certainly better in that regard. Now that education costs in either place, childrens opportunities in either country are, I think, bounded by how much money their parents have. If parents in Canada can fund university while they cannot in the UK then Canada offers the better opportunities for their children.

Almost Canadian

I don`t know if I can agree with this last bit. I doubt that there are many parents that would see their relative earnings change to a large extent simply from moving across the Atlantic.

Lawyers and doctors in Canada require 2 degrees to graduate from med/law school, only a single degree is required in the UK. Student loans are available each side of the Atlantic.

While I accept that having parents that are prepared to pay for the courses helps to a huge degree, the leftie bullshit that poor kids can`t make it is just that. There should be no reason why lack of funding would prevent a capable student achieving their goals. The difference between students of affluent parents and those of skint parents is the amount of student debt each will have following Uni. Choices made at Uni can massively affect that outcome as well.

Over to you

ireland2canada

Really? You think that, for example, a child from a single parent family whose parent earns a remedial wage and can not or will not provide financial assistance will not be affected by the prohibitive cost of funding a degree? That seems like the thinking of someone who has never been in that position.

Sure you can get a means tested student loan. That might cover your tuition fees. The student then needs to live, eat, sleep somewhere, purchase books and materials, a computer, pay travel costs, potentially pay professional fees. All this while studying full time.

Not only was I the above mentioned student, I went on to work at a university in the UK. Funding was a massive problem for the students from lower income backgrounds, suffice to say that many dropped out rather than struggle to complete a degree they simply could not afford to complete. Some had very little family support, especially those who were the first in the family to enter third level education, even more so for those from rural communities. Often, bright students would have poor academic records due to working long hours outside of class.

To say that university education will be not beyond the means of some is naive at best.

dbd33

I don't see that. My daughter is at UBC because it's cheap to start with and she qualifies for lots of grants of one sort and another. She would likely not be able to afford to attend, say, Queen's. She's dating someone who was forced to give up on Columbia after a year due to running out of money. If they had better parental funding, they'd be at different schools. otoh, they both had their first degrees funded by their parents, without which neither of them would be taking an nth degree. Despite the grants, she needs to work, which places her at a competitive disadvantage compared to more affluent students.

I find it easy to see how the demands of a job could impede one's ability to win in the classroom. I can also see how the prospect of a debt greater than the price of a house could discourage a student from taking a course.

Blendin

The point I was trying to convey is that university students in Canada don't have better job prospects than their UK counterparts.

Almost Canadian

A was a child of a single parent family (my father died when I was 9 and left us with, virtually, nothing). I have two siblings.

My mother worked as a cleaner, dishwasher etc. anything to keep a roof over our heads. I put myself through University (as a mature student I did not qualify for free tuition, and I was the first in my family to do so. I also lived in a rural community so I appear to fall directly into the category you have referred to.

I took out out a loan from a bank (can`t remember what it was called now but it provided for repayment of the loan 2 months after the course started. I choose not to live lavishly during my time as a student.

It is possible, one simply has to get away from the "society owes me everything" attitude and accept that one has to save for items and that one has to cut one`s clothes according to one`s cloth. Revolutionary concepts these days I know, but possible none the less.

Of course it may have been easier if I had rich parents although, had I done so, maybe I wouldn`t have the drive to succeed that I do. Who knows?

Almost Canadian

Doesn`t the above support my argument and adversely affect your argument (that prospects are easier in Canada)?

I worked full time while studying part time in the evenings. I finished second in my class (full time and part time). Yes, some students may have had it "easier" due to having affluent parents. They were usually the ones that didn`t care and had a shitty attitude for a student.

One can sit there and blame society for one`s lack of opportunities, or one can do something about it. I know which category is the more likely to "succeed", whatever that means.

People in England and Canada, when learning what I do for a living, are very quick to make judgements about how easy I have had it. Nothing could be further from the truth. I don`t live a lavish lifestyle and have never felt the need to "prove" myself to others by the clothes I wear or the car I drive (as a previous post attests to).

dbd33

Eggs. Grandmother.

dbd33

Well, no, in this specific case I know that it was my having more disposable funds than I would have had in the UK that resulted in my children having their first degrees. I'll grant that I'm unsure to what extent this is an argument about children on the margin, the most driven students will likely succeed anywhere.