Oink

Or as Tony Blair stated. The universities are the coalmines of the 21st. century. - Higher education is no longer simply an adornment to our national life--of immense value and prestige, but only to a small privileged minority. It is now a sector as important to our society and economy as the big extractive industries of the past.

ireland2canada

Ha. Let me know how your forest of money trees comes along, you surely must have one. Being careful with your money is one thing, having f*** all to begin with is quite another. Using your logic, I'll be off to buy a yacht. It doesn't matter that it is wildly beyond my means...I'll just "be careful how I spend my money".

Why is it so hard for you to accept that, for some people, the cost of university is beyond their means? I dealt with students who dropped out of their courses, who had to defer for a year to work full time, those who could not go on their mandatory placements because they could not cover accommodation and travel to get there. All those students would be delighted to know that it was not simple economics that was the issue. No, they are just lazy, right?

dboy

Following article off t'internet seems to support this:

Peter Taylor of Sodexo said: "There is clearly a large financial strain on students if they are having to reduce spend on food and are eating less healthily, which is a concern for those providing for students, especially while they are away from home.

"The financial impact is clearly shifting the university experience, which is now far more orientated around studying for the right job with much less emphasis put on the social aspect."

Researchers talked to 1,994 students attending 148 universities throughout the UK. For the first time, this year's survey also asked students whether they had considered dropping out of university.

Alarmingly, almost a third (30%) had considered leaving higher education at some point, with almost half (48%) citing academic pressures as the reason. Nearly as many (46%) doubt whether they can continue due to financial difficulties. Four in 10 blamed poor health, depression or stress, and 35% said they did not like their course.

Wes Streeting, president of the NUS, said students were leaving university with record levels of debt at a time when graduate job prospects were at an all-time low.

"These eye-watering sums are small fry compared with the ambition of many university leaders to double tuition fees after the general election," he said. "Given that so many students and their families are already finding it extremely difficult to cope with the financial pressures of higher education, it is astonishing that such demands are given such credence.[/I]

Blendin

What's more important is the opportunities after graduation.
Who cares how hard it is to get accepted to the Ontario College of Teachers if you end up working at Starbucks.

dboy

very true.

cityhog

Higher ed is a business these days. Don't get tricked into paying for a useless degree. Heard many BAs in humanities end up working at Tim Hortons or McDonalds.

Oink

I heard of many people who have BAs in the humanities that are owners of businesses, directors of non-profit organizations, some are teachers. I know few who are actors, a couple of politicians, many who work in corporations, are in the police, unemployed or in prison, some work in restaurants, one works for an American circus and a few have pissed off to live in an Indian ashram.

dbd33

Not those who borrowed the money for their courses, I suppose.

Oink

I think they were on full scholarships for the bagpipes.

dbd33

Americans schools then. Perhaps the circus is for extra credit.

Almost Canadian

I had f*** all to begin with. Nothing, nadda, not a penny. It can be done. I accept you believe that it can't, but I am living proof that it can.

I have said that I accept that the cost of university may be beyond the current means of a student. It is my understanding, and I may be wrong so I apologize in advance for my ignorance (I am confident you will jump all over me if I am incorrect) that those that don't have the current means to pay for tuition, food, accommodation, the latest laptop etc, can apply for a student loan whereby money is advanced on the basis that it is repaid when the student's income reaches an appropriate level.

I, and I am sure many others, have done this to fund their education. I wasn't able to afford the courses I needed to take at the time I took them. I repaid my loans and I am confident many have.

By your logic, I was not able to afford to go to university but the fact remains that I did.

I accept some may not want to burden themselves with such debt and will state that they cannot afford to go to university. That is their choice, just as one can rent their entire lives on the basis that they do not want to risk a foreclosure.

Some may choose the loan route, will max it out having a good time and will then complain that their student loan is too large and they are having to give up their university dream on the basis that they cannot afford it. These are the ones I am referring to when I say they need to be more careful. We have all heard stories of students coming out of a 3 year degree owing £50,000. I cannot see how they did so. I did a 3 year degree and a further year of legal practice courses and didn't owe anything like that amount, during which time I paid a mortgage and my stay at home wife delivered 2 kids.

Some people may not wish to live as frugally as we did during this period and, again, that is their choice. But a blanket statement that some cannot afford to go to university without those taking responsibility for the position they find themselves in is, again IMVHO, simply wrong.

It seems to me that we are never going to agree on this. I believe on self-reliance and self-sufficiency and taken responsibility for one's own circumstances. It has worked for me, how much is down to luck and how much is down to lifestyle choice is a moot point.

dboy

its not all about getting jobs. Where are all the poets, writers, philosphers, and academics going to come from if everyone winds up in IT?

Higher education is much, much more than getting a better job. Isn't it?

ireland2canada

Bloody hell, you could start an argument in an empty room! You bashed out that tirade without getting my point at all.

I too am living proof that it can be done, although I will be paying off my student loan until I either die or reach retirement age. I have not said that it hasn't be done, of course it has, I did it. What I'm saying is that not everyone can, or wants to sign up for a lengthy financial commitment in order to achieve third level education. Increasingly so in an environment where having a degree is the norm.

Where I disagree with you is your assertion is that those who feel that the financial burden is too much for them and their family are somehow lazy, feckless, hand wringers who are blaming society for their lack of opportunities. I know this not to be the case and find this to be a mean spirited and selfish attitude. I also find it very odd that someone from a low income background would judge people who have very little in this manner.

Gawd, I hope that's clear enough.

dboy

yes it can be done, of course it can. But you are missing the point that motivation to the extreme is not enough for many. How many silver spooners would have the strength of character to persevere under such cicrumstances? As noted, i earned enough here to have the option to fund myself,had i been earning less, I'd have been hard pressed to do it - simple. I suppose i could have done one course a year for the next 40 years....but your goals have to be attainable and realistic. you are oversimplifying things.

cityhog

It doesn't require a degree to become a writer, and those teaching humanities at the college level in Canada tend to have degrees from top schools, mostly US schools. Yes it's more than getting a job, but you have to think about how you're going to make a living after college. Many kids don't know what they're getting into and end up with a lot of debt, and they have no job prospect. It's a lot worse in Canada than in the US where there are large culture industries (eg the NY publishing world) that can hire not all but some BAs in humanities from top schools. And the US also has probably twenty or thirty times more universities & colleges, and so more jobs for people with degrees in humanities. I'm not saying you shouldn't get a degree in humanities. If you're independently wealthy, or if you think it's really what you want to study, go for it, but do it at a good school. A BA in Philosophy from Harvard is different from a BA from Thompson Rivers U. I know it worked out for you, but higher ed has changed in the last two decades. It's not cheap any more at public universities. It's more about making money these days than educating kids.