British Expats

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-   -   Pension Options (https://britishexpats.com/forum/canada-56/pension-options-935330/)

Piff Poff Oct 17th 2020 5:42 pm

Pension Options
 
I know this isn't black and white BUT, I little query if I may. I am short on my government pension by 13 years, is it better for me to top up my UK pension OR put the money into a Canadian fund? Or just allow Hubby to by more cars and make more money? As it stands to bring me upto date I have to invest 16K Cad, I'll then have to still contribute another 2 years to bring my to full pension qualification. I won't have full Canadian qualification as I have had periods of time where I have not worked and only have worked part time, we do have small private pensions.

Thanks for your thoughts

BuckinghamshireBoy Oct 17th 2020 6:17 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12922996)
I know this isn't black and white BUT, I little query if I may. I am short on my government pension by 13 years, is it better for me to top up my UK pension OR put the money into a Canadian fund? Or just allow Hubby to by more cars and make more money? As it stands to bring me upto date I have to invest 16K Cad, I'll then have to still contribute another 2 years to bring my to full pension qualification. I won't have full Canadian qualification as I have had periods of time where I have not worked and only have worked part time, we do have small private pensions.

Thanks for your thoughts

Not sure if it's still available, but HMRC used to have (it was there several years ago) a "what if" calculator; create an HMRC account, give it your NI number and it will give an estimate of what you might receive, along with estimates on various 'make up for lost years' scenarios.

I'm aware that quite a few posters on BE recommend topping up UK pension contributions, but when I ran my numbers about three years back, it was not in our best interests, so I didn't.

I'd go with hubby + cars; what price adrenaline? ;)

Twitcher1958 Oct 17th 2020 8:54 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy (Post 12923005)
Not sure if it's still available, but HMRC used to have (it was there several years ago) a "what if" calculator; create an HMRC account, give it your NI number and it will give an estimate of what you might receive, along with estimates on various 'make up for lost years' scenarios.

I'm aware that quite a few posters on BE recommend topping up UK pension contributions, but when I ran my numbers about three years back, it was not in our best interests, so I didn't.

I'd go with hubby + cars; what price adrenaline? ;)

Yep - that’s still available and works well! We’ve done it recently - seemed a no brainer for our particular circumstances but you need to investigate. We’ve spoken to HMRC twice and found them particularly helpful - you still have to make your own decision but it’s so much easier when you have information that’s been clearly explained to you. If you’re eligible for Class 2 contributions, it’s a big saving.

Piff Poff Oct 17th 2020 10:13 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
I am 13 years short as of today. I currently stand to get 90 gbp per week. If I pay up to full pension that increases to 175 per week. But should I put that money into a canadian thing or into the uk thing is my wondering.

scot47 Oct 17th 2020 10:16 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
Go for maxing your UK NI contributions @ Class 2

Siouxie Oct 17th 2020 10:28 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Twitcher1958 (Post 12923031)
Yep - that’s still available and works well! We’ve done it recently - seemed a no brainer for our particular circumstances but you need to investigate. We’ve spoken to HMRC twice and found them particularly helpful - you still have to make your own decision but it’s so much easier when you have information that’s been clearly explained to you. If you’re eligible for Class 2 contributions, it’s a big saving.

Do you have a link?

BristolUK Oct 17th 2020 10:35 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12922996)
I know this isn't black and white BUT, I little query if I may. I am short on my government pension by 13 years, is it better for me to top up my UK pension OR put the money into a Canadian fund? Or just allow Hubby to by more cars and make more money? As it stands to bring me upto date I have to invest 16K Cad, I'll then have to still contribute another 2 years to bring my to full pension qualification. I won't have full Canadian qualification as I have had periods of time where I have not worked and only have worked part time, we do have small private pensions.

Thanks for your thoughts


Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12923049)
I am 13 years short as of today. I currently stand to get 90 gbp per week. If I pay up to full pension that increases to 175 per week. But should I put that money into a canadian thing or into the uk thing is my wondering.

Assuming your figures are correct it costs you $16k CAD which is £9400. If it only turns £90 a week into £150 a week your £60 a week gain is £3120 and you'd get your money back after about four years when annual uprating is included.

Regarding Canadian money, you may be short on CPP but don't forget that OAS is still a possibility (depending how much other income) and Canadian residence counts for that.

I was three years short. For some reason I was allowed to make them up by paying the lower of the two rates. Not according to everything I read on the UK gov website but that's what they told me when I applied. I paid one year and then decided I may not live long enough to see the benefit so I haven't bothered with the other two. But a quirk in the Canadian system (no CPP for me) means that I'll get a higher rate of OAS than usual so gains I make on my UK pension will affect my Canadian OAS, meaning overall it won't make much difference.



Piff Poff Oct 18th 2020 1:30 am

Re: Pension Options
 
Thanks for the replies everyone. I said to hubby I might just give him the money to invest on a car, he is desperately trying to find an investible one lol

Twitcher1958 Oct 18th 2020 1:39 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12923054)
Do you have a link?

Just the gov.uk website- it invites you to register, then once you’ve done that you can request an update on your status. It’s recommended to do this before speaking to them - you only need your NI number and personal details .to register

Siouxie Oct 18th 2020 3:35 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Twitcher1958 (Post 12923101)
Just the gov.uk website- it invites you to register, then once you’ve done that you can request an update on your status. It’s recommended to do this before speaking to them - you only need your NI number and personal details .to register

I've been waiting nearly 3 months for a letter from them... I wondered if there were a simple link you could utilise.. not to worry.. it's doubtless too late for me anyway :)

christmasoompa Oct 18th 2020 9:39 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12923124)
I've been waiting nearly 3 months for a letter from them... I wondered if there were a simple link you could utilise.. not to worry.. it's doubtless too late for me anyway :)

https://www.gov.uk/check-national-insurance-record

HTH.

christmasoompa Oct 18th 2020 9:42 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12922996)
I know this isn't black and white BUT, I little query if I may. I am short on my government pension by 13 years, is it better for me to top up my UK pension OR put the money into a Canadian fund? Or just allow Hubby to by more cars and make more money? As it stands to bring me upto date I have to invest 16K Cad, I'll then have to still contribute another 2 years to bring my to full pension qualification. I won't have full Canadian qualification as I have had periods of time where I have not worked and only have worked part time, we do have small private pensions.

Thanks for your thoughts

Are you sure you're not eligible for Class 2 contributions? The $16k sounds like Class 3.

Class 2 contributions are £3.05 per week = £158.60 per year, times the 13 years shortfall (although obviously only 6 years could be paid now, the rest would be paid going forward, so I'd expect to increase a bit). That would be £2061.80.

And if it would give you an extra £85 per week, you'd break even after about 6 months by my calculations. If so, that's a no brainer IMO, and would be well worth doing.

Twitcher1958 Oct 18th 2020 11:56 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12923124)
I've been waiting nearly 3 months for a letter from them... I wondered if there were a simple link you could utilise.. not to worry.. it's doubtless too late for me anyway :)

I spoke to them in early March but didn’t receive letter until late May so It took approx 3 months and I can’t imagine things have speeded up rapidly since then.

Piff Poff Oct 18th 2020 3:12 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by christmasoompa (Post 12923176)
Are you sure you're not eligible for Class 2 contributions? The $16k sounds like Class 3.

Class 2 contributions are £3.05 per week = £158.60 per year, times the 13 years shortfall (although obviously only 6 years could be paid now, the rest would be paid going forward, so I'd expect to increase a bit). That would be £2061.80.

And if it would give you an extra £85 per week, you'd break even after about 6 months by my calculations. If so, that's a no brainer IMO, and would be well worth doing.

im6going by what the website told me with my details. I do have a help request in with them. I will keep checking. Thank you.

spouse of scouse Oct 18th 2020 3:47 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12923124)
I've been waiting nearly 3 months for a letter from them... I wondered if there were a simple link you could utilise.. not to worry.. it's doubtless too late for me anyway :)

Scouse waited about 3 months for his letter Siouxie, although that's a bit more understandable given where we live. Well, not really! Letters are send by air mail these days, not slow steamers. Hope you get yours soon.

BristolUK Oct 18th 2020 8:23 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by christmasoompa (Post 12923176)
Are you sure you're not eligible for Class 2 contributions? The $16k sounds like Class 3.

Class 2 contributions are £3.05 per week = £158.60 per year, times the 13 years shortfall (although obviously only 6 years could be paid now, the rest would be paid going forward, so I'd expect to increase a bit). That would be £2061.80.

And if it would give you an extra £85 per week, you'd break even after about 6 months by my calculations. If so, that's a no brainer IMO, and would be well worth doing.

:nod:


Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12923260)
im6going by what the website told me with my details. I do have a help request in with them. I will keep checking. Thank you.

This is exactly what I meant when I said that everything I had read suggested I would have to pay the higher of the two rates. I made a formal application and my response said I could pay the lower rate so as christmasoompa says, the break even point comes much sooner.

BuckinghamshireBoy Oct 18th 2020 9:24 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12923327)
:nod:


This is exactly what I meant when I said that everything I had read suggested I would have to pay the higher of the two rates. I made a formal application and my response said I could pay the lower rate so as christmasoompa says, the break even point comes much sooner.

I would surmise that as you (and Piff Poff) are resident in non-EU/EEA countries, then that's what allows for the eligibility for the class 2 contributions?

As an EEA resident I could not get class 2, and having done the sums I opted not to go with class 3; less weekly uplift than mentioned above, and much, much longer to achieve break-even for monies paid in.

adele Oct 18th 2020 9:51 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
Here are the details re: eligibility: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-nationa...-contributions
Here's the info for applying for class 2 voluntary NICs: https://www.gov.uk/voluntary-nationa...-contributions
Fill out form CF83 and send it (I enclosed supporting documentation) to the address on the form.
I mailed the form and evidence in late June and received the letter back in late September (when I looked online on my Government Gateway account it showed that they received it the first week of August and processed complete the last week of August. Their letter to me was dated first week of September)
If they approve you, you can then send the payment for previous years and arrange to make payments going forwards (if applicable/necessary).
I just sent the payment for the past 11 years of class 2 contributions (@ approx 160 pounds per year) from my Canadian bank account to HMRC about a week ago using Transferwise.
Seems like a great deal to me!
:thumb:

BristolUK Oct 18th 2020 10:13 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy (Post 12923339)
I would surmise that as you (and Piff Poff) are resident in non-EU/EEA countries, then that's what allows for the eligibility for the class 2 contributions?

It doesn't seem to be. :confused: Being employed seems important

Originally Posted by adele (Post 12923347)
Here are the details

Screen print of the being abroad parts:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...341c08b19d.png
I was (am) living abroad (obviously :lol:) but not working and it says Class 3 (the more expensive ones) only.

As a former civil servant in DSS/DWP used to reading official booklets for public information and official reference manuals that staff worked to, I was always aware that actual law sometimes threw up different bits of information that would override those manuals.

So I assume this is something similar because even if you ignore the fact of me being abroad, the only other situation in that table that I could be in is unemployed and not claiming benefits and that one says Class 3 too.

BuckinghamshireBoy Oct 18th 2020 11:16 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12923354)
It doesn't seem to be. :confused: Being employed seems important

Screen print of the being abroad parts:


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...341c08b19d.png
I was (am) living abroad (obviously :lol:) but not working and it says Class 3 (the more expensive ones) only.

As a former civil servant in DSS/DWP used to reading official booklets for public information and official reference manuals that staff worked to, I was always aware that actual law sometimes threw up different bits of information that would override those manuals.

So I assume this is something similar because even if you ignore the fact of me being abroad, the only other situation in that table that I could be in is unemployed and not claiming benefits and that one says Class 3 too.

Ok, point taken, but drill down on the purple hyperlink, then it becomes less obvious...

BristolUK Oct 19th 2020 12:31 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BuckinghamshireBoy (Post 12923369)
Ok, point taken, but drill down on the purple hyperlink, then it becomes less obvious...

Do you mean from an EU perspective?
From my Canada perspective it doesn't change.

Sorry, I don't mean to be disinterested in the EU aspect - or is that uninterested, I never know the difference :lol: - I'm just focusing on Piff Poff's calculation based on the website saying class 3 would apply when she may, like I was, be allowed to pay class 2 which is a lot less.

Siouxie Oct 19th 2020 4:51 am

Re: Pension Options
 
See page 9 - opens in new tab: https://assets.publishing.service.go...32814/NI38.pdf

BuckinghamshireBoy Oct 19th 2020 12:22 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12923389)
Do you mean from an EU perspective?
From my Canada perspective it doesn't change.

Sorry, I don't mean to be disinterested in the EU aspect - or is that uninterested, I never know the difference :lol: - I'm just focusing on Piff Poff's calculation based on the website saying class 3 would apply when she may, like I was, be allowed to pay class 2 which is a lot less.

No worries, I'm chasing my tail (again). In the past I've huffed and puffed, but always ended up with class 3 being the only route for me, which I declined. Obviously if class 2 were to be an option, then that would be the way to go.

Tangram Oct 20th 2020 6:33 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
I haven't bothered topping up the UK. Wife has 2 year short of max and myself 10 years short. Who's to say it will even be there in 10 years when I'm eligible or whether the goal posts have been shifted by whatever Tory scumbag is in charge.

christmasoompa Oct 20th 2020 6:38 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Tangram (Post 12924014)
I haven't bothered topping up the UK. Wife has 2 year short of max and myself 10 years short. Who's to say it will even be there in 10 years when I'm eligible or whether the goal posts have been shifted by whatever Tory scumbag is in charge.

Could well be the case, but certainly for your wife I'd be tempted to take a punt for £300 as she'd make that back in only 2.5 weeks of claiming a full pension! Might be worth doing the sums to see what difference it would make, if you could pay Class 2.

Tangram Oct 20th 2020 6:42 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
Will do

Piff Poff Oct 21st 2020 2:45 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
I've sent a request off for some help. It's all become a little more interesting to work out as my husband is currently in CCU with heart issues. He only went in for a CT scan...

Siouxie Oct 21st 2020 3:22 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12924420)
I've sent a request off for some help. It's all become a little more interesting to work out as my husband is currently in CCU with heart issues. He only went in for a CT scan...

:(
Oh no Piff! Hope he is ok...

Piff Poff Oct 22nd 2020 2:20 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Siouxie (Post 12924433)
:(
Oh no Piff! Hope he is ok...

They have managed to get his blood pressure down it was 284 over 173 for a while there and every time they started to bring it down he would throw up. He has just been diagnosed with hereditary cardiomyopathy and thats why he was in for a scan. Apparently one side of his heart is working at 30%. It's very worrying but he is in the best place. He looked so much better today and he is hungry.

shelley748 Oct 22nd 2020 5:39 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Piff Poff (Post 12924662)
They have managed to get his blood pressure down it was 284 over 173 for a while there and every time they started to bring it down he would throw up. He has just been diagnosed with hereditary cardiomyopathy and thats why he was in for a scan. Apparently one side of his heart is working at 30%. It's very worrying but he is in the best place. He looked so much better today and he is hungry.

sending best wishes Piff for his recovery!

Atlantic Xpat Oct 22nd 2020 5:44 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
Jumping into this thread - but only after wishing Mr Piff Poff a speedy recovery!

I paid NIC from 1990 through to 2004 when I emigrated. If I check my NI contribution record I obviously have zero contributions from 2004 onwards. It appears the price of buying further years is GBP795 / year.

When I check my UK pension entitlement I get the info below:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...91a8aad67b.jpg
So I'm confused., Assuming no further contributions am I going to get 81 quid a week or 175 quid a week?

I'm assuming the former.

BristolUK Oct 22nd 2020 8:07 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Atlantic Xpat (Post 12924938)
Jumping into this thread - but only after wishing Mr Piff Poff a speedy recovery!

I paid NIC from 1990 through to 2004 when I emigrated. If I check my NI contribution record I obviously have zero contributions from 2004 onwards. It appears the price of buying further years is GBP795 / year.

When I check my UK pension entitlement I get the info below:


So I'm confused., Assuming no further contributions am I going to get 81 quid a week or 175 quid a week?

I'm assuming the former.

The former - uprated by whatever % between now and when you would start to get it.

Piff Poff Oct 23rd 2020 1:42 am

Re: Pension Options
 
AX that's almost the same figures as me lol. I have a email request in. I'll post the results when I get them


Mr Piff is doing much better but hasn't yet got a release date.

Than you all for your thoughts.

Tangram Oct 23rd 2020 2:15 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12925006)
The former - uprated by whatever % between now and when you would start to get it.


Where does it say how much it will cost you to get the full amount of years required for full pension. I find the whole thing very confusing.

shelley748 Oct 23rd 2020 2:35 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
The max with NO further contributions is 81 pounds a week.




Originally Posted by Atlantic Xpat (Post 12924938)
Jumping into this thread - but only after wishing Mr Piff Poff a speedy recovery!

I paid NIC from 1990 through to 2004 when I emigrated. If I check my NI contribution record I obviously have zero contributions from 2004 onwards. It appears the price of buying further years is GBP795 / year.

When I check my UK pension entitlement I get the info below:

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/british...91a8aad67b.jpg
So I'm confused., Assuming no further contributions am I going to get 81 quid a week or 175 quid a week?

I'm assuming the former.


shelley748 Oct 23rd 2020 2:35 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Tangram (Post 12925287)
Where does it say how much it will cost you to get the full amount of years required for full pension. I find the whole thing very confusing.

It usually tells you below the information the OP posted....

BristolUK Oct 23rd 2020 4:20 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Tangram (Post 12925287)
Where does it say how much it will cost you to get the full amount of years required for full pension. I find the whole thing very confusing.


Originally Posted by shelley748 (Post 12925301)
It usually tells you below the information the OP posted....

Sorry Tangram, I don't have access to my account anymore so I can't check.
You probably have a rough idea how many years you contributed for and 35 years gets the full whack. Then multiply the number of years short by the cost of class 2 (£150 per year) or class 3 (£800) and you'll have a rough idea.

If you make a formal application they'll confirm how many and whether you can pay C2. You're not bound to actually doing it so nothing to lose.
I vaguely remember from mine that I was 'invited' to pay for more missing years than were actually missing. :ohmy: :lol:


Tangram Oct 23rd 2020 4:42 pm

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12925347)
Sorry Tangram, I don't have access to my account anymore so I can't check.
You probably have a rough idea how many years you contributed for and 35 years gets the full whack. Then multiply the number of years short by the cost of class 2 (£150 per year) or class 3 (£800) and you'll have a rough idea.

If you make a formal application they'll confirm how many and whether you can pay C2. You're not bound to actually doing it so nothing to lose.
I vaguely remember from mine that I was 'invited' to pay for more missing years than were actually missing. :ohmy: :lol:


Thanks Bristol. Forms ready to send off this weekend to check. That's a big difference between class 2 and 3. Geez I hope it's class 2

Piff Poff Oct 28th 2020 1:26 am

Re: Pension Options
 

Originally Posted by Tangram (Post 12925359)
Thanks Bristol. Forms ready to send off this weekend to check. That's a big difference between class 2 and 3. Geez I hope it's class 2

was that form CF83?

Splitvw2 Oct 28th 2020 6:14 pm

Re: Pension Options
 
1 Attachment(s)

Originally Posted by BristolUK (Post 12925347)
Sorry Tangram, I don't have access to my account anymore so I can't check.
You probably have a rough idea how many years you contributed for and 35 years gets the full whack. Then multiply the number of years short by the cost of class 2 (£150 per year) or class 3 (£800) and you'll have a rough idea.

If you make a formal application they'll confirm how many and whether you can pay C2. You're not bound to actually doing it so nothing to lose.
I vaguely remember from mine that I was 'invited' to pay for more missing years than were actually missing. :ohmy: :lol:

Hi sorry if I being slow but from above if I have paid 36 years full contribution have I paid full amount or do I need to make up to 2035 (15 years ) to get the full pension?


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