is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

'The disruption made teaching virtually impossible. I could not believe what I saw'

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent
(Filed: 24/04/2005)

As the petite, middle-aged teacher shouts desperately for the 20th time for the out-of-control class to be quiet, a faint, childish boy's voice can be heard, calling out above the deafening din: "Suck ** ***, miss".

The appalling scene of classroom disorder and disrespect is just one of many captured on film for a channel Five documentary, to be screened this week, which will reignite the debate on how to tackle bad behaviour in schools.

'Sylvia Thomas', a teacher who agreed to film her classes secretly On returning to teaching after a 30-year absence, a supply teacher using the pseudonym Sylvia Thomas secretly filmed shocking examples of lessons ruined by large numbers of pupils over a three-month period.

The documentary shows children aged from 12 to 15 completely ignoring her and other staff while they shout, scream, fight, swear and wander around the classroom at will.

In one scene a full-scale fight breaks out and a 6ft tall boy is seen wielding a rubber truncheon, as the terrified teacher calls for help. In another, pupils throw books, pens and balls of paper across the room for a full 15 minutes as the teacher protests, before they declare that they "don't give a ****". In yet more disturbing scenes, a boy in a computer class is filmed accessing hard-core porn sites and then protesting his innocence, saying "I just typed in '****', miss".

The supply teacher was filming in 15 ordinary secondary schools in London and the north of England - randomly chosen by the supply agencies she contacted, and none of them considered to be failing by recent inspection reports.

Clearly shaken by her experiences, the teacher said she could not comprehend the behaviour she filmed, using a tiny camera hidden in a briefcase and a microphone disguised as a jacket button.

"I could not believe what I saw. I could not describe what I saw," she said. "The disruption that I experienced made teaching virtually impossible. These were schools in middle-class areas, not sink estates. We are not trying to single out the schools in the programme. They could be schools in any part of the country as far as I am concerned, this behaviour is so widespread."

In almost every class, the teacher is seen repeatedly trying to restore order - but her authoritative voice and friendly, no-nonsense approach makes no apparent impact on pupils.

She is ignored or challenged constantly. In one maths class, a 12-year-old who was censured for saying, "Shite, miss!" told her: "I've got just as much right as you to say what I want. I've got a right to speak up for myself."

"It was a constant battle," the teacher said. "Some pupils have got the idea that they can threaten the teacher with the police, with being summoned and sued. Teachers end up walking on eggshells, and when you do that, you can not discipline a child. The balance between the child and the teacher has swung too far in favour of the former - and they know it. The whole way they walk down the corridor says 'We are in control'."

The documentary, Classroom Chaos, to be broadcast on Wednesday, lays bare a growing tide of "low-level disruption" identified earlier this year by school inspectors as a major concern. In his annual report, David Bell, the chief inspector of schools, said that nine per cent of secondaries suffered from "persistent and unsatisfactory" behaviour - up from six per cent in 2000.

Schools staff also report increasing levels of abuse and violence. A recent survey by the Teacher Support Network, a charity that runs a helpline for school staff, found that 98 per cent of respondents had been verbally abused and 45 per cent threatened with violence. One in five had been assaulted and 38 per cent said their personal property had been damaged or defaced.

At its conference last month, the National Union of Teachers, the biggest teacher association, voted for a national charter of behaviour - with sanctions for pupils who breach it - to be drawn up in an attempt to stem the tide.

All three main political parties have pledged to improve school discipline. Ruth Kelly, the Education Secretary, has promised support for teachers who apply zero tolerance in the classroom.

The Government still insists that schools must take their fair share of disruptive pupils, however. The Conservatives have promised to abolish appeals against pupils exclusions and create "turnaround schools" where poorly behaved pupils can be rehabilitated. Some 21,000 new teachers and smaller classes are pledged by the Liberal Democrats.

According to Ms Thomas, however, the turnaround will not be easy. "I thought maybe their behaviour was because I was bad teacher, or because I was on supply," she said. "But I've shown the video to teacher friends and they say the same things have happened to them." She has now given up teaching for good.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Then you have the other extreme where a 5 year old girl was cuffed in Florida.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4475513.stm

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I have two solutions:

(1) corporal punishment
(2) We pay for public education so what's the point of having this punk in the classroom? We need the "Shutup and learn or get lost".

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

That's sick beyond words. Why the heck weren't the parents called in and given a good thrashing instead?

-Becs

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

It goes from one extreme to another! :scared: :(

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Yes, scary isn't it!!

Congrats on your 3rd 'Star', by the way. ;)

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I know that not all canadian kids are angels, but as far as I have seen, behaviour is so much better generally there because they have a culture in which the word "respect" still figures strongly.

Those of us who were brought up to respect authority figures, ie parents teachers, policemen or whoever, cannot believe the lack of respect shown by kids today. However this is not surprising when you look at many adults in our society. The kids only mirror what they see. They learn by example.

Kids in canadian schools are shown to respect eachother, the staff and other adults, and most importantly themselves. How much self-respect do our kids have???

This in turn is mirrored in the strong community spirit demonstrated in many parts of Canada compared to here, where it is very much "every man for himself"

If people, not just kids, will just behave towards others as they would like others to behave towards them, then respect and "good behaviour" follow automatically!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Agreed, it's a karma thing, you get what you give.

Yesterday I was in town walking around, there was people barging into each other, obstructing each other, rushing around, blocking the aisles, mumbling about things and generally looking miserable with life. Oh, and there was an international fresh food fair on in the market and an umpah band playing, but all I could hear was people moaning about 'all this foreign muck' and ranting about foreigners going back home. Mentally drained, I was, and happy to get the hell out of there....bad vibes, bad karma !

Rich.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I am American (though I lived briefly in Toronto!) and have to say that while there are certainly gangs here and children are treated far too much like little adults, there are no chavs. This shocks my friends in England who have resigned themselves to it, believing that chavs are just the next generation of "punks." I don't think so..... it's starting younger and they don't seem to outgrow it or have any artistic or political output.

:(

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Punks, back in the day and in the true sense of the word, at least had some ideology or belief, which however negatively perceived, many people developed out of that mentality and this in itself resulted in leading fashion, innovative minimalist design and art, an ideology that had a certain attitude to 'smash up the old way' and focused strongly on "anti-traditionalism". which for many means progress. Bono and Geldof grew out of punk mentality and look at their positive impact on politics and globalisation. Bono is a world leader for me, a truly great man with such potential to change the world.

In the same way the hippy evolved into a business focus of democracy, empowerment, progress, environmental conscience, caring and sharing, profit sharing, recycling, green energy, etc. Some of the most progressive business minds many from the ex-hippy class or influenced by them, taking progressive business and management thinking into the boardroom and to market, and kicking the old boy network / stuffy male chauvenist authoritarian control freak / old school tie brigade into the corporate rubbish bin. Doing all this whilst still turning a profit, proving that sharing can work. Greed isn't always good.

The chav, however, cannot articulate anything and stands for nothing. It is the new underclass, tasteless, violent, brutish, and more nihilistic in values than any punk ideology. Nothing to contribute, nothing to say. Grunting, smashing and puking it's way through post adolescent life.

Sad and desperate as it is, the future of Britian is truly chav, unless things change very quickly. Witness the offspring of the chav and chavette, the next phase of degeneration. All this brought about by a Labour government that had so much potential and has done so much positive work, yet leaves a wide gulf between good and bad people.

Very very sad.

Rich.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I work in a special needs school, but i have taken a lad for intergration into a "normal" if thats the right word, high school.
The behavoiur of 30 kids aged 15 in the science lab is absolutely disgusting, objects such as paper, rulers etc are thrown around, test tubes are broken , just dropped on the floor on purpose, the kids just run riot, and the teacher cannot do a thing.
If I could afford to take my own daughter out of our local high school I would, and put her in a private school, where the ratio of kids to 1 teacher is much better. She can't wait to live in Canada as she is constantly bullied here. But we dont have enough points.
Jeanette

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

If I could afford to take my own daughter out of our local high school I would, and put her in a private school, where the ratio of kids to 1 teacher is much better. She can't wait to live in Canada as she is constantly bullied here.


How I agree with you Jeanette. My daughter is 13 and by the time we get to BC, (if we do succeed) she will probably have left school here anyway!!
She is in a Standard mixed comprehensive and I would so dearly love to be able to afford to get her in somewhere better. She really wants to learn, but comes home daily, depressed that she cant do that because of the constant disruption in the classes, usually by the same small band of kids who clearly dont want to be there.
My thoughts (and my girl's) are for them to get the heck out then!! the school just dont want to deal with it and say nothing they can do!? :scared:

One thing on a positive note though, I had thought it was me getting old and turning into Mrs Meldrew and constantly saying ' I never happened in my day'!! :eek:

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Thanks :) I'm pleased, but don't understand why I have 3 stars and lots of little boxes underneath? :confused:

Back to schools - I work at a High School here as support staff, and am dismayed by the bad behaviour and disruption that goes on in classes.

When we were in Canada last month we visited a potential future high school for our son. The main thing I noticed was how the staff spoke to the students, which was in a much more positive manner and the kids responded to this likewise. There was no shouting. They also moved between lessons in a orderly manner, not like at our school where I get a bit nervous if I'm the corridor during lesson change. It's a bit of a free for all and the kids pass my office like a mad herd of wilderbeast :scared:

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

The stars go with the number of posts you have made...I think the first one comes in at 20 or 25, and then you get extra ones at 50, 100, 250 etc.

The blue boxes are Karma....if people enjoy one of your posts, or if you just give them a good laugh, etc, they can send you Karma. You will see the Karma box in the bottom left hand corner of the posts.

The 'wild children' syndrome just comes down to lack of discipline, and the fact that children in the UK have far too many 'rights' without any idea of 'responsibility.'

Hopefully it will change.....if it doesn't, then I really do not want to be here in another 10 years time!!! :scared:

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Thanks Scouse :) And thanks everyone out there for my Karma!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

why the heck weren't the parents called in? Are you kidding? The parents of the disruptive are never available when you want them. They are sure to contact you tho if you happen to tell their darling child off for talking on their mobile phone during the lesson and if you take it from them? phewwwwww The parents of the disruptive children (in my opinion) are the ones who hated school themselves, hated teachers and encourage their children to get their own back thru them!!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Most of these kids are scum and so are there parents who let them get away with it .all it needs is proper people who are not so bloody pc .where theres blame theres a claim folk get on my nerves all the kids need is a good pasting now and again instead of being wrapped in cotton wool by the authorities.no wonder this place is knackered when all you see is scum everywhere ,bad lads army was something that a lot of these little bastards should go to and then watch them bawl there eyes out.there soft as shit when it boils down to it :eek:

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Hey, don't p*ss about Z3M..... tell us what you REALLY think!!! ;)

If anything deserves Karma, that does!!! :D

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

[QUOTE=Craftybanshee]Thanks Scouse ....QUOTE]

You are most welcome!!! :D

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

but going to back to the very original post - she said she secretly filimed in "middle class" areas

I think Morwenna was very eloquent about this - and to add to what she wrote (and I know I said this before) in the UK parents will say that they "know their rights" - yes, but in Canada they know their responsibilities too!

Clare

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

The big difference between Canada and the UK which may explain this is Religion. Compared to the UK, Canada is still quite a religious country and people here are brought up to respect others and be an all round good person. I'm not particularly religious myself, but I believe this is why people (children especially) are better behaved here. I live in the Greek area of Toronto and the orthodox church round the corner is regularly packed.
In many parts of the UK, awful parenting, a breakdown in law and order and total lack of any spiritual or moral guidance has resulted in the situation we have today.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I agree. I don't really know what can be done about it as it now seems to be engrained into British society.
You get the odd low-life here in Toronto, but overall the problem is nowhere near as bad in Britain.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

It would be so easy if a social problem only had one or two causes but most social problems don't and it's from that perspective that I add the role of the teacher.

When I was a kid (in Canada, no corporal punishment allowed at my very normal school), there were some teachers that just didn't know how to control a classroom of kids and those who did. Kids know the difference and will jump on it. Example from my own childhood -- during math class with Mr Price or science with Ms Lang we kids were focused, respectful and behaved - next hour into Mr Green's English class and all hell would break loose. I and the rest of my classmates did things in his class that we wouldn't dream of doing in Mr Price's or Ms Lang's classrooms. That teacher, Mr Green, resigned half way through the year and I hope he went into a field he was better suited for because it sure wasn't teaching. I'm not putting the entire blame on teachers here just adding another possibility to the multitude of likely causes for disruptive behaviour in school - not all teachers know how to demand respect and control a classroom, not all teachers are great teachers.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

...interesting thread, I'm a maths teacher in a middle to upper middle class secondary school and although I was considering a move to Canada before starting teaching for various reasons mentioned all over these forums, teaching helped me make a final decision... I received confirmation that my (canadian) wife has been accepted as a sponsor and I should have my visa in about 2 months which means I won't have to go back in September.

I spend about half my time on crowd control and half on teaching and this is not an acceptable ratio as far as I'm concerned. The thing which annoys/worries/upsets me more than anything is the lack of respect and overt rudeness displayed by what is becoming a critically large percentage of students.

I have decided to repay my student loan (which the gov was repaying due to maths being a shortage subject) and ditch the "golden hello" due in December because it just isn't worth it (Tony Blair and Ruth Kelly can split that and shove it up their respective ....s).

I have two you children and can not allow them to join this education system or remain in UK society. I think I'm starting to rant, still it's just good to see other people have the same views as I do...

When people ask why I'm leaving I usually sum it as "In Canada there is no word for Chav..."

Mark

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Maybe there are no leaders setting an example either in terms of ethics or morals.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I have just finished a 3 day course last week on physical intervention.
Obviously in my job in an special needs school, it is good to have just in case we are assaulted.Some of our kids are severe disability and will think nothing of punching you!we now know how to intervene without harming/hurting them which is great.
but what is scary is that they are also training normal school staff on how to intervene and restrain.
So if a child does say "you can't touch me" actually you can!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Hi Jeanetteuk,
I also work in a special needs school, mainly the kids are severly impaired in all differnt ways, none are too seriously violent. But I have worked in Referral units with kids of primary age where they are very violent, I have been kicked punched and bitten by kids as young as 5. We also have to restrain them without touching the skin, which is not as easy as it sounds. I would personally bring back corporal punishment in main stream schools, then maybe we wouldn't have these referral units, which are now being shut down all over the country.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Good grief. I hope you don't have children.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I also think that there should be some sort of punishment that will act as a deterrant, so that they would think twice about what they are doing.(in a mainstream school).
I just cant understand why kids are like this today. I wont go down the route of when i was young.....!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

"These kids are scum" ? Possibly, but they were not born scum, they were made so.

I sometimes watch those programmes where "uncontrollable" toddlers and very young children are "sorted out" by an expert. For every child that screams when not getting their way, lashes out in temper, or uses foul language, when they video the parents you can see exactly whose behaviour they are imitating!

The other main problem is usually that the kids are never set any firm and consistent guidelines or boundaries, and that behaviour which is tolerated or ignored one minute is slammed the next.

An over-riding feature is also the lack of positive affirmation for "good" behaviour. The kid gets attention only for being "bad", and no reward whatsoever for being "good", so why bother?

Agreed, in the classroom some teachers are much better able than others to keep the attention and therefore the control of a class, but if they at least start with the baseline of kids coming to school expecting to listen and learn instead of being in competition with the teacher, then at least the less assertive teachers will stand a chance!

If people try to guess my occupation, I am often mistaken for a teacher (only cos I'm bossy :p) but I certainly do not envy the teachers of today, .... or indeed the ones of yesterday ;)

I take my hat off to the lot of you!!!

:beer:

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Have you seen the way these little sods behave??

I am not sure that corporal punishment is the answer, but the sooner some kids are taught respect, the better.

The number of teachers leaving the profession is staggering, and the reason given is normally the same....'We do not have enough control.'

If a child is given the option of behaving well, or behaving badly, very few will choose the former. They will push the envelope as far as they can. Hell, we all tried it, but most of us caught a swift clip around the earhole for our troubles!! :)

There are many times when I think 'I am in the wrong job', but I have NEVER thought 'I wish I was a teacher!!' :scared:

I would probably be serving a life sentence by now if I had!! ;)

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Does anyone agree with me, that when you read something like...."i cant understand why kids are like this today?" that here is a desperate call for parental training of some sort? Some parents (and this is true) do not know how to bring chilldren up, do not know how to discipline a child without losing respect and fear losing any love from their child if they reprimand them. Sad but true. Parents and especially one parent families fear that if they are not on the side of the child, regardless of what the child's attitudes and views are towards school and education, will result in the child turning against them.
Go against teachers, education, the system and even society but pleeeeeeease dont go against me!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Surprising enough, if you give the child the option to behave well or behave badly, the majority will behave well.....its how you do it. If you tell a child off for behaving badly, theyre embarrassed and retaliate, if you say something like 'if you continue to behave the way you do, this will happen to u, however if u decide to behave well this will happen......its psychology and works!! try it...oh the best bit is when u say ....'u decide' its then their option....
still think parents have a lot to answer for!..........a lot of kids are a pleasure to teach....your lot for instance

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I wish I could believe that, but unfortunately the results of years of laissez faire education are taking their toll.

The future of the UK, if present trends are anything to go by, is bleak indeed!!

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

yeah i do intend to agree........it works if a) you're a good teacher and b) if you can get the disruptive ones on your side so u can get the chance to say that.....once u do however it does work..ive tried it.....................kids are not all bad,,,, they actually like discipline and like to know where theyre going.......for some reason kids enter secondary school with a low self esteem....those who have high self eseem pretend they havent to please peers.........puzzling

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

anyway must leave this forum now......have some lesson plans to do.........and God help me...theyve got to be exciting or the kids will sue me for boredom

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

I agree Patsy. My first year of teaching was in inner-city Glasgow as a supply teacher - you could almost see the rascals rubbing their hands in glee! It was more worrying when the teachers in the staffroom started looking at you with pity, saying "good luck - you're going to need it!"

I haven't had a chance to teach here in Ontario yet, but I'm looking forward to seeing whether there are any differences in the kids. I've a funny feeling that it will depend on the area the school is in and what kind of parenting the kids get more than whether they are British or Canadian.

Chris

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Maybe not related

I have worked in the Scottish Prison Service for the last 10 years

When I started in 1995. One of the older guys who was about to retire used to talk and have a laugh with the kids of the prisoners.

Before he left he said to me.

" All these wee rugrats will be your future bread and butter "

You know that saying is true. I work with guys who have dealt with the fathers of prisoners just now, and now we are dealing with their kids.

It seems to be a vicious social circle that these kids grow up in.

Eddie

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Yes, I know exactly how "these little sods behave". I deal with the aftermath of poor parenting and "it's someone else's responsibility" attitude every day of my working life.... :rolleyes: The post I responded to called these kids "scum". These kids are not "scum". They are what they are made to be by the people who raise them. And yes, I have also been a teacher (albeit a long time ago when I first graduated). If you think the same families are not here, you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Re: is this one reason why you left the UK?
 

Not one word but two: white trash.
Aka trash, trailer trash, mouth-breathers and rednecks! Lots of fun. ;)