Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hey guys
I am about to move to Calgary in July with my husband and 2 kids. He has got an expat deal with his current employer so we wont be picking up the tab the for move thank god lol :)
I am coming over next month to try and find a rental house and we have been assigned a management company that will do everything for us however i do think i should be doing my research too!!
Where is the best place to be living with the best public schools in the vicinity? We have 3500 dollars to spend p/m what should i be getting for that amount? I am more inclined to be staying in the SW of the city but i havent ruled out NW, Okotoks or Chestermere just yet!! How easy will it be to get a rental property that will accept 1 dog and 2 cats (aswell as a husband and 2 kids :D), i really cant leave them behind.
What is medical care like compared to the uk? Is there the usual waiting list to get an appointment to see a GP? Also dental is it easy to get a dentist?
I am a bit concerned about the education, my eldest is 6 and is in primary 2 in Scotland. I understand that they are roughly a year behind the uk, is that right? What are the class sizes like and are the kids taught a similar curriculum to the uk?
Thanks for any help you may be able to provide!

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Welcome to the forum and good luck with your move to Calgary.

If you look at the top of the screen on the blue line, click on the Wiki and that will answer a lot of your questions about schooling, doctors etc.

There have been lots of threads in the past about the various areas of Calgary and the surrounding towns. Here a couple to start you off:

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...ive+in+Calgary

http://britishexpats.com/forum/showt...ive+in+Calgary

Good luck!

Lisa

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hey guys
I am about to move to Calgary in July with my husband and 2 kids. He has got an expat deal with his current employer so we wont be picking up the tab the for move thank god lol :)

Congrats and good luck.

I am coming over next month to try and find a rental house and we have been assigned a management company that will do everything for us however i do think i should be doing my research too!!

Where is the best place to be living with the best public schools in the vicinity?
The public school system is, I believe, very good. (Having taught for 10 years in Calgary, and now having 3 kids in the system) Find an area where you would like to live, and there will be decent schools there.


We have 3500 dollars to spend p/m what should i be getting for that amount?

To spend on what?


I am more inclined to be staying in the SW of the city but i havent ruled out NW, Okotoks or Chestermere just yet!!

All nice/good places. Personally, and I'm always beating this drum, I prefer a community with a lake, because it adds so much to your kids' enjoyment of the summer hols.

How easy will it be to get a rental property that will accept 1 dog and 2 cats (aswell as a husband and 2 kids :D), i really cant leave them behind.

They exist, but it limits your options. Some realtors on this board will find rental space for you ahead of time.

What is medical care like compared to the uk? Is there the usual waiting list to get an appointment to see a GP?

You may have to search to find a family doctor, but you can also just sign on wiht a clinic and use the docs that are available. Most clinics have walk-in appointments available. You will have to make an appointment with a doc to see him/her for anything more specific.

Also dental is it easy to get a dentist?

Yep - there's lots

I am a bit concerned about the education, my eldest is 6 and is in primary 2 in Scotland. I understand that they are roughly a year behind the uk, is that right? What are the class sizes like and are the kids taught a similar curriculum to the uk?

Don't be worried. They get educated for the needs of the country as do all kids in all jurisdictions! So some of them end up as as doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, mechanics and plumbers etc!;)

But joking aside - of course you are concerned, you're probably coming here for the kids and you want what's best.

From MY experience (having been a school administrator and working with Brit parents and their kids) let the kid settle with their own age group. Don't try and push them ahead.


Thanks for any help you may be able to provide!

You're welcome

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

er.....what he said! :D
For what it's worth, when deciding on the area/satellite town where you want to live, consider whereabouts in the city your husband will be working. It might make a huge difference to his commute. I work in the south, so it made sense for us to live south of the city too. Just something else to consider.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Congrats and good luck. We are in Calgary (me, my husband and 4 kids aged between 11 and 5), we have been here just over 4 years now.


All schools seem to be much of a muchness and pretty good on average - I would avoid the NE of the city, but anywhere else would me more than likely to have a good school. When we first arrived here we lived in Varsity, and now live in Country hills - both of the schools my kids went to were very good. I would say find the area you want to live in and base the decision on other services that you want and not worry about the school too much.

I cant comment on the SW, Okotoks or Chestermere, but we live in the NW of the city and are pretty happy here. As far as finding the rental property - the kids will be no problem but you may have to search around to find one that will accept the animals - they do exist however.

Medical care is pretty good, but you will probably struggle to find a GP straight away - there is a shortage. There are plenty of walk in clinics however and quite often it is easier to just go to one of those rather than waiting for a GP appointment even if you do have a GP. Dentist is no problem - we just went to the one that was nearest to us and registered with them.
As far as I am concerned, education is pretty good - I certainly have no complaints. At 6, your eldest will be going into Grade 1 - I wouldn't push for him/her to be put any further ahead, it is better that they stay with their own age group as far as I can see. Class sizes are not huge, and while there are differences in the curriculum (Because they obviously teach things based on Canada rather than the UK), they cover all the basics. I really wouldn't worry too much about it.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Thanks guys for all your help!
Triumphguy, we have 3500 dollars to spend on rent per month not incuding utilities! Have found a couple of websites renting houses out and there doesnt seem to be much in this price bracket that accepts pets!
Snoopster, my husband works in the city in bankers hall so we will be needing good commuting in and out, he doesnt really want to travel more then 30 minutes each way, are we limiting ourselves and being realistic?
Chookie, my eldest is 7 in october i thought he would be going into grade 2 in september, am i wrong? Also my younger one is 3 in July how easy is it to find playgroups without huge waiting lists? :)

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hi there. If your eldest is 7 in September then, yes, he will be going into Grade 2. He won't be one of the eldest in the class like in the UK as the cut off month here is end of Feb I think and not September like in the UK. My daughter has a September birthday and she was 7 and went into Grade 2 when we moved over. She'll be 9 this year.

Finding a pre-school is not really a problem either. I actually live in Cochrane and had no problem getting my son into one. I would imagine it to be the same within Calgary itself; there's plenty around.

I hope you can find a suitable rental for you and your pets. We moved with a cat and dog so understand the traumas. We only went into short term before buying a own property so it wasn't too bad.

With regard to the places you're looking at, I don't really know what the comute times are like. Just as a comparison, we live in Cochrane and my husband works in the NE of Calgary and it only takes him between half an hour and 45 minutes. You don't seem to get the traffic in Calgary like in the UK!

Anyway, best of luck with it all.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I would recommend living somewhere close to a C Train station if you are commuting downtown.

I used to get the C-Train to downtown from Dalhousie Station in the NW and it took about half an hour. If you go one station further up the line to Crowfoot then you could feasibly live in Arbour Lake, which is a lake community, and still get downtown using the C-Train. The closer in to the city centre you go, the older and more mature the neighbourhoods are.

There will also be some nice communities down in the south which are close to the C-Train within your 30 minute commute window but I don't know it as well down that way so others may be able to help. I think Lake Bonavista is one of them (also a lake community).

Good luck!

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

OP - yes if your eldest is 7, he will be going into grade 2 - I was assuming that he would still be 6 hence my grade 1 comment.

I also agree with the Ctrain comment - it is very useful for travelling around and also for getting to work - parking downtown costs an arm and a leg, but a monthly transit pass costs just over $85 a month and give you unlimited travel on both busses and trains in that month.

The other alternative to teh Ctrain is to try to rent somewhere within walking distance of the BRT routes (ie the rapid transit busses). We live within 2 blocks of the 301 route to downtown which is what Mr Chookie uses to get to work every day. Far easier and cheaper than him driving and having to pay through the nose for parking.

this is the map for the 301 route and from the looks of it, there is also a South-east route as well

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I work in Bankers Hall and my commute is less than 30 minutes each way - taking the Bus down Bow Trail from Westgate, which is directly to the east of Sarcee Trail. There is major construction on westbound Bow Trail, which does slow down the evening commute a little, but it is still pretty good. The buses are quite fast but they don't go into the communities, so somewhere near to Bow Trail is a definite plus. A 15 minute walk in -34C is not much fun, so my wife drives me to/from the bus stop when it's really cold. Walking also pushes the total commute above 30 minutes. Lots of bus routes run down Bow Trail east of Sarcee, typically leaving 3-4 minute between buses during peak hours. I'm currently car pooling, which has reduced my commute - on a good day it can be under 10 minutes, but normally it's a little more than that.

No lakes in this part of the city, unfortunately, but we do have good sport and leisure centres, skate parks, playing fields and Glenmore Reservoir is only a short drive away for sailing if you fancy that. It's also really convenient for getting out to the mountains - less than an hour to Banff.

Shaganappi might be a good place to look - it's a nice area with good road and bus links and quite a lot of rental properties from what I have seen. It depends whether you can see yourself living in a place called Shaganappi though! Also avoid being too close to Westbrook Mall (33 St to 37 St between Bow Trail and 17 Av), as that area does seem to attract street crime.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Virtually all of the Lake Communities in Calgary are in the SE with no real direct (walkalbe) access to a c-train station. If you lived in the right part of Midnapore, then it may be possible to walk to a station but, for most parts of most of the lake communities, a bus will need to be taken from the community to a station.

Not much of an issue going to work (as you can time your arrival at the bus stop) and the c-trains run every 6 mins during rush hour.

However, the trip home could become problematic as the buses tend to run every 20 mins from the stations which could be a bummer if the bus pulls away just as you are alighting from the train in minus 30 degrees.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Sounds like if your husband doesn't want a commute of 30 mins to downtown, then a satellite town (like Okotoks or Cochrane) would be a less wise choice than living on the outskirts of the city.
Okotoks is a 20 min drive to Shawnessy and the C Train station in the south, then you'd have to add on the travel time on the train itself. Not sure about Cochrane, but it's probably similar to the outskirts of the west side.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Danfolkstone, shaganappi sounds a very interesting place to live - love the name :D!!
Thanks guys for all the info, i really appreciate it. Must say i am looking forward to the move, think Calgary is an amazing place to live. Me and the kids went over for a visit a couple of months back and we loved it. Banff and Lake Louise were stunning, we even went dog sledding which was really good fun!
A couple of more questions, what is the tv like over there? Can you get a system similar to our Sky+? Does anyone know of some good summer groups or activities to do with the kids? Oldest one wont have any friends until he starts school in september so would like to keep him occupied, maybe a summer camp?
Thanks again! :thumbsup:

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I'm still picking myself up off the floor having read the $3500 pm on rent.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I'm still picking myself up off the floor having read the $3500 pm on rent.

Tangram, why is that alot or not enough? :)

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I think you can actually buy a house for $3,500 in the Maritimes. ;):D

Don't worry, $3,500 is a decent allowance for Calgary rent - you will get a nice 4 bed house in a good area for that.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Jingsamichty, well thats good! Bit concerned it wasnt going to get us much after looking on rentfaster.ca all the properties i love were in the 8000 - 10500 dollars p/m range lol. I can dream hahaha :thumbsup:

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

$3500 per month for rent will get you a small palace! Our mortgage isn't even that much a month (it is more than double what our mortgage is actually!)

We rented in Varsity (a 10 minute walk from the Dalhousie Ctrain station) - a nice 4/5 bed house with 2 1/2 bathrooms (read that as 2 bathrooms and one ensuite toilet/shower-room) Tatty and in need of decoration but in a nice area. This cost us $1500 per month for the first year and $1650 the second (Granted it is 2 years since we left the rental house and bought the one we currently live in but I doubt prices have gone up all that much).

Now to answer your other questions:

what is the tv like over there? Mostly American crap interspersed with some old reruns of British comedy from what I can see... Personally I mostly watch the food network (yes I am a sad case!) and BBC Canada

Can you get a system similar to our Sky+? can't really answer this because we never used sky+ in the UK - but we use Shaw digital for our TV - gives us a good range of channels that the kids like (Animal planet, discovery channel, cartoon network, some kiddie ones) plus some that Mr chookie and I like.

Does anyone know of some good summer groups or activities to do with the kids? Oldest one wont have any friends until he starts school in september so would like to keep him occupied, maybe a summer camp? Summer camp could work - otherwise, try the local library, they do lots for kids in the summer. And I know that the sports-center near where we live does lots of kids programs in the summer too.

But failing that, you prob don't really have to worry - if you live in an area with lots of families he will make friends - kids seem to all play out in the streets (and everyone elses backyards) in the summer - I plan on having at least half a dozen extra OPK's (other peoples kids) at some point in the day!

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

$3,500 rent thats more than you need.We rent a 2200sqf house in okotoks 3 bedrooms big bonous room 2 1/5 bathrooms.Developed basement and bar (had to add the bar) for $1800 a month.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hi Charlotte30,

I moved to Calgary in July 2008 with my two kids who were then 6 & 8.

As someone mentioned earlier, the cut off date for the schools is end Feb, (if look at the Calgary Board of Education Website you'll get lots on info) so which grade your child will go into will depend on when her birthday is. My kids had been in a Scottish school, one went to P1 to G2, the other from P3 to G3, just due to when there birthdays are. For what it's worth, I think they're both roughly where they'd be, educationally, if they were in Scotland. When you arrive in Calgary you have to go to the Kingsland Centre to register (I think I needed work permits, passports and last school report), they'll allocate the school depending on your address.

If you don't get registered with a family doctor straight away it's not a problem, there are plenty of walk in clinics and if you time it right you don't have to wait too long (and if you walk in with a crying bleeding child they tend to see you straight away ;)) Oh, and we're had very good service at Alberta Childrens Hospital.

There are plenty of dentists - you're kids will have a retainer / braces before you know it! :lol:

Before I came I used this wiki (a bit dated but a good starting point) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ods_in_Calgary to get a list of neighbourhoods then I'd google the neighbourhood to get more info. I also used the community associations to get a feel for the neighbourhood: http:// www.calgaryarea.com/ When I though I liked an area I'd see what was available on rentfaster to see what I could get for my money.

Calgary has plenty of good communities and where you settle depends on your own personal preference and where your husband is working. The C-Train is great but don't rule out bus routes either, we're not a C-train route but we do have a regular bus service which takes you donwtown in 20 mins. We settled on Strathcona Park, which is in the SW quadrant, but more west than SW, it works for us because its easy to get downtown and we've got easy access to the mountains from here, there are also ravines running through the neighbourhood (great for running or dog walking!), a great local recreation centre http://www.westsiderec.com/bs_home.html?MenuID=2060 and good schools.

Most of these advantages also apply to the neighbouring communities of Christie, Aspen, Patterson and Coach Hill. These are the areas I know best so feel I can make comment on, communities in other areas will also have there own advantages and I'll leave others (who know better) to let you know about these.

(As an aside, in our general area I know 7 other British families (and know of more), mostly Oil and Gas, two from Aberdeen, I don't know whether you would consider this an advantage or disadvantage).

With regard to renting with pets, most properties on Rentfaster will say no pets but, if there's one you're interested in you can contact the agent and ask, they may say yes but bump the rent up a bit, I know two families renting with dogs.

Good luck, and feel free to PM me if you've anything specific you want to ask.

MrsDV

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Oooh thanks for all that info, got loads to think about!
Keep thinking of random things to ask, cos i keep forgetting! Ok so what is the wildlife like out there? Are my cats going to be eaten by some cayote or cougar? :unsure: What are the chances of running into a bear or moose (i hear these are just as dangerous!!) The worst thing i have ever bumped into was a badger in the lane near my parents house :lol:
When looking at properties to rent how 'negotiable' is the price? I have been told here to rent our property for a certain amount you market it is little bit higher for it to drop down a bit. Just like selling in england i suppose! Thanks
Mrsdv for answering my other question of how properties that state 'no pets' can be brought round with an increase in rent!! I also figured that if a property was on the rental market for a while then they would be a bit more open to pets if it meant getting a 2 year lease minimum!! :)
Thanks again to all the replies!

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

One more question, the Ford Flex - how good a car is it? If we were staying in the uk our next car would have been an Audi Q7. However hubby has his eye one this one because he says it is good value for money and very similar to our Land Rover disco3. Had to admit the Audi is too expensive in canada to buy, plus there really isnt too many of them around in the used section! Without coming across as snobby or snooty, i do like a nice car and a Ford just doest do 'it' for me :lol: Maybe i am wrong and it is 'the' car the have?!! :thumbsup:

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

As others have said, you should be able to get a relative palace for that amount each month. My employer has a fair number of expats working in Calgary, all paying $2000 or less per month for more than acceptable family accomodation within a 30 commute of Bankers Hall.

Pets in your price bracket will definitely be a big problem, perhaps as much as anything becuase of the the Canadian love of good quality hardwood flooring. Wood flooring and dogs just don't mix without damage to the flooring. If you do find a willing landlord, plan for your deposit to be used to refinish the flooring when you leave.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Unless you are going to be inviting coyotes into your front room, your cats will be safe. You appear not to know that cats are not allowed outside in the Cit of Calgary. OK, technically they are but they must remain on your property. You are not allowed to put them out in the morning and take them back in at night.

There have been plenty of posts about those in more rural areas letting their cats out in the morning to never see them again or to see them but only in a half eaten state.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Almost Canadian, what seriously i cant let them out then? Obviously they wouldnt stay on my property so they now have to become indoor cats then? Well thankyou for informing me i didnt know that one!!! I am gobsmacked, well at least they wont get eaten then :D

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

You can let them out, but you must ensure that they do not leave your property. Here is the relevant link:

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server....ts+Indoors.htm

I have seen people walking their cats on a leash. :eek: You couldn't make this up:rofl::p

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hahaha, i can just see myself with one dog and two cats on leashes walking down the street now :lol:

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

You can let your cats out if you live in one of the satellite towns - certainly you can here and a lot of people do. There are coyotes on the edge of town (- several sightings near the off-leash dog area), but I would think in most areas of town the main threats are either cars or neighbours who don't want cats pooping in their yards!

We brought our two cats over with us, one has since died and we have acquired two more. We don't let them out, other than on the balcony. The old "English" cat is quite happy to just sit out there and sun herself - even though she loved to spend lots of time outside in the UK, she doesn't seem bothered about going out now anyway. The "Canadian" two don't know any different as we have had them since kittens and they have never gone out.

In the winter most cats with any sense wouldn't want to go out anyway, regardless of where you live here!!

Lisa

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

There is MASSES going on all around the city for kids in the summer break. The holidays are 8-9 weeks long so there's plenty of programs that you can sign up for.
Ours are off on a week long residential camp near Canmore in August. It's the first time they've done a sleep away summer camp but they're pretty excited about it. www.cadicasu.com
There are huge amounts of day camps if you don't fancy the residential ones, or your children are too young to go away. Our recreation centre in Okotoks runs day camps on everything you could wish for - arts, crafts, dancing, sports. You name it, they do it. I'm sure that the rec centres in Calgary are probably the same. Camps are pretty good value here too. Your local library will have all sorts of activities on as well. Just check out the local press when you get here.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

We brought our cat and dog over with us too. Here in Cochrane it is the same as in Calgary in that your cat is not supposed to leave the confines of your property/garden. That said, it is not something that tends to be enforced unless your cat became a "problem cat" as it were. We see plenty of cats out and about (including ours) and no one seems to mind in the slightest. All depends on your neighbours I guess. Again, I don't tend to worry about the wildlife so far as my cat is concerned. I don't think it's really a problem if you're within a town; maybe different if you're right on the outskirts or in a rural area.

As far as the big wildlife is concerned - I've lived here 17 months now and spend a lot of time up in the mountains and have never seen a wild bear or cougar yet. See plenty of deer and elk and the occasional coyote and have only ever seen one moose and that was in the distance when I was in the car. We know people that have seen bears so, yes, you do need to be a bit careful but it's not something I would be unduly concerned about.

:)

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

These are the websites I used for rental properties:

http://www.homerent.ca/
http://www.places4rent.com
http://www.rentfaster.ca
http://www.rentboard.ca
http://www.rentspot.com/

$3,500 should give you a good choice but as others have said pets will be an issue particularly at the higher price range you're looking at. Maybe you could offer a higher damage deposit?

If you want to look at one organisations assessment of schools you could do worse than look at the Fraser Institute reports. As would be expected, in general, the "nicer" the area the "better" the school results.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

A thirty minute commute from out of town to the downtown core is totally unrealistic. Many suburbs with in the city are easily this 'far' away - especially at rush hour. Calgary is a HUGE city (area wise) and it CAN take 45 mins to drive the north/south limits.

Whilst public transport is a good option, it can take a long time to get where you're going depending on your location and whether you can hop the C-train or have to connect with or rely solely on buses. My OH used to commute from the NW to the downtown core on transit and it would generally take between one and two hours door to door.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

I am always saying this and I am permanently shouted down by those living in Cochrane/Okotoks etc. that state that their OH can make it to downtown in less than 30 mins door to door. When pushed, they will admit that their OHs do so in the middle of the night. I live in Somerset, from the Somerset station to downtown takes 35-40 mins and the c-train stops for nought (except passengers):rofl:

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

...which is why I said it would be a less wise choice than living in the suburbs. I have friends here in Okotoks whose daily commute is up to an hour (or more sometimes) to downtown.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Mr Chookie gets the bus from the NW down town every day, and while he can do it in around 30-45 minutes, he is getting the BRT bus and usually leaves home just before 7am...

Coming home in the evening usually takes him longer.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

As the others have said $3500 is a good amount to spend, but the pets may be an issue. We spend way less than this (but then we don't need to communte to downtown)

Lots of summer camps around. I've just boooked one at COP. Uni camps are meant to be good.

Ford Flex looks fine, I really like the look of it. People here are not hung up about that sort of thing, or at least not the people I've met (even the brits)(even the oil company brits)(even the wives of the oil company brits).

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

:lol: Well, this 'wife of an oil company brit' drives a Dodge Grand Caravan, so you may have a point!

By the way, my two did the mountain bike camp at COP last year and absolutely loved it - have asked to go again this year (I must get on that!)

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Which is why I said "depending on your location". ;) (and of course, the time of day one is traveling). I remember when you could drive down Crowchild trail and find it relatively empty - that's a rarity these days though.

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

You could also look at Kijiji for house rentals. Most seem to be in the price range of $1000 - $2000.

They have short term rentals too (fully furnished) if you were looking for somewhere temporary.

Putting in a search for "pets allowed" at Homerent.ca brought up quite a few houses too.

Pet friendly houses at Rentspot.

Pet friendly houses at Rentboard.

Houses for rent (more expensive - agency)

Pets "negotiable" at rentspot.

Home trader allows you to view rental properties by map.

There is also Rent Calgary (you need to specify the area).

Most of the rentals I saw were for $1000-$2000 a month (plus utilities)

For $3,500 a month you could have this 5 bedroom, 4 bathroom luxury house by the lake - and Pet friendly too!



Hopefully one or two of them will give you the opportunity to "paws" for thought :D

Re: Moving to Calgary and i need help please!!
 

Hillhurst / West Hillhurst, walking / cycling distance to downtown close to the river, cycle paths, schools, shops, restaurants etc. Job Done!:thumbsup: