Hi everyone

I am 24, unmarried (just finished a six-year cohabitational relationship with a Canadian) and a UK-born British Citizen.

Recently I have been seriously considering emigrating to Canada. I have plenty of family there on my dad's side (aunt, uncle, their spouses and kids and lots of other cousins), all living in and around Toronto. Therefore, I would be looking to live and work in the GTA.

Obviously, I can't get into Canada under the Family Class so I would be applying as a Skilled Worker. However, I've been reading some of the threads on here and have become a little disheartened. I'm worried about what will greet me when I reach Canada. I have a Bachelor's degree in Business, specialising in Marketing, and have approx four years' work experience including one at the CHC in London. I have seen entry-level jobs in Marketing in Toronto at about $24k a year, but then I saw apartments for rent at $800-$1k a month. Can people survive on $24k/year in Toronto? Am I even likely to start at such a salary?

I've also been reading about the cost of groceries etc. It would seem that spending £1 is like spending $1 in a lot of cases, but some stuff just seems so expensive (fruit juice, for example, at $3/litre). I could earn £24k in London which would allow me to live comfortably but I would only have to pay about 70p for a litre of orange juice (less than CAD$2). Therefore, I am little worried that I would not be able to survive on whatever salary I manage to secure. Does anyone know of a website which outlines salary indicators for various fields in Toronto so I can check out likely earnings in marketing professions?

It's been suggested to me to go to Toronto on holiday and try and get a job offer while there, in order to get a Work Permit on my return to the UK (which would most likely be quicker than getting the PR visa). Does anyone know if you can change employment in Canada if you have been given a work permit? Also, if you are in Canada on a work permit, is it quicker and easier to apply for PR from within Canada?

Finally, what are the immigration interviews like? Can anyone give me an idea of the kinds of questions they ask?

Hope someone can help.

Thanks

Suze

Hi Suze,
Well I can't answer all your questions but hopefully this will help. I am a permanent resident in Canada but had previously worked in the UK for for a big oil company. I thought I would have no problem getting a job back in Canada, but I was wrong. So far it has been 5 months and still nothing. The job market in the west is very tough. I haven't been to Toronto myself but a family member had moved there - then left! It is very expensive and the attitude to work is a lot more competitive.

$24k salary, in my opinion is very low. This would be a salary for perhaps a receptionist or junior administrator. You should be looking more in the mid 30s. There are jobs out there, but many won't be advertised. If you do move to TO, register with as many agencies as you can. Accommodation can be very expensive, my sister was paying well over $1000 a month for a small studio flat. (In Vancouver you can find a nice one bedroom for $750-$850 per month, incl heat and water).

Canada does have a better standard of living, but the pay is not as good as the UK, so you need to weigh up the pros and cons. Some things are cheaper others aren't.

As for going to TO on holiday and trying to gain employment I know personally that it is very hard to get a job in Canada if you are not legally entitled to work here, unless if you are in a skilled profession - perhaps IT etc. The company would have to prove that they could not get a Canadian to fill the position and it would have to be approved by the HRDC.

It seems with your background and having family in Canada that you could have a look at the points system to immigrate independently. Although I think your family would need to be immediate ie mother, father. Speaking French would also add more points. Check out the www.cic.gc.ca website, you can take a web test to calculate your points.

I can't remember what the immigration interview was like, it was a while ago, but if you're honest and qualify to immigrate I wouldn't worry to much about that. They want to check that you are adaptable etc, and having family in the country will be a bonus.

All the best of luck, I know how hard it is.

Human Resources Developement Canada's Labour Market Info Page--->

http://lmi-imt.hrdc-drhc.gc.ca/



Good Luck Suzey

Thanks very much That site looks very useful - I'll investigate further...

Suze

Hi NG,

Thanks for your message, it was very helpful. May I ask what your citizenship is, out of curiosity?

Sorry to hear that you are finding the jobs market tough in Vancouver. What field are you in? Are you willing to take something unrelated to your field?

As for the attitude to work being very competitive in Toronto, the same can be said of almost any city in the UK. At the moment, there are far more candidates than there are jobs, and lots of people have degrees. Don't know if you experienced this much when you were here. I am worried that I will be at a disadvantage from the start when I arrive in Canada, as I am not a native. However, something that I forgot to mention is that I have a postgrad diploma in Marketing which I think can be used to gain membership of the Canadian Institute of Marketing, which may help me.

Thanks for letting me know what kind of salary I should be looking for. That really helped! If I managed to get something in the $35k range, it would definitely help with the high rents in Toronto. Incidentally, I had heard that Vancouver was more expensive in this respect, but in your experience that doesn't seem to be the case! A one-bed house in my area costs approx £450-500/month, flats cost a bit less.

One other thing I just thought of is that I am finding it hard to find information on income tax rates in Ontario. Anyone have a URL please?

Regarding getting an offer of employment whilst on holiday, I realise it's a long shot, but a friend who still works at London CHC advises me to try and get a relative or friend of friend to offer me a job in order to get me the work permit. Whether this would work in practice, I have no idea. It would give me more points if I were to apply for PR, too - at the moment I score roughly 72 points which is short of the 75 needed, which is ANOTHER worry... Perhaps I am selling myself a bit short on my French language skills, though, as they're better than a lot of people's but they are very rusty.

I always thought the UK was an expensive place to live - seems I was wrong! However, like you say, Canada offers a much better quality of life and the people I have met on my three visits there have always been friendly and welcoming, which is more than I can say for the people in this country

Suze

Hello Suze,

a very thoughtful and well written post!

Just a general comment on salaries and expenses. Apart from a very few items
(_very_ few, though orange juice may be one of them), I think you'll find
that prices are about half of what they are in the U.K. Whether you consider
housing, gas (petrol), new cars, food (both store-bought and eating out),
you'd be hard pressed to find anything that is even close to U.K prices (I
should say London prices, as I have little to no experience with the rest of
the U.K.) Salaries are somewhat lower, and, as anotherposter said, 24K is
definitely a very low, entry-level salary. Still, this gap in pay is - in my
opinion - more than made up for in the much lower level of almost all
prices.

There is also little doubt in my mind that on the whole, standard of
living - including such hard to qualify items like service, helpfulness and
weather - are superior in Canada. Yes, even weather - though this summer was
next to impossible to get through without a/c.

You may consider one of the smaller communities within 60 miles of Toronto -
such as Kitchener/Waterloo, Guleph, Oshawa and the like for lower house
prices and somewhat lower rentals.

Best of luck to you, Suze
George

"suzey" wrote in message
news:441334.1034432357@britishexpats-
.com...
    > Hi everyone
    > I am 24, unmarried (just finished a six-year cohabitational relationship
    > with a Canadian) and a UK-born British Citizen.
    > [rest of post snipped]

I came to live in Montreal in 1993 with a student visa, while applying for permanent residency with my family. We obtained residency in 1994 after a long year, of immigration interviews both in Brussels and in London. I met my boyfriend in Scotland in 1997 and have been travelling back and forth ever since. We have now both decided we want to live in Canda, and chose Vancouver over Montreal mainly because of all the politics going on in Quebec (even though I love Montreal and if I found a job would move back today). I have a University degree (MA), plust two college diplomas, one of which is from Montreal. I really didn't think I'd have a problem. However I've been told there is absolutely no substitute for having Canadian work experience.

I would like to stay within my field of work, human resources, however have been looking for just about ANYTHING that I could do. I've been temping so hopefully this will help.

If you live in London you'll be used to a competitive and fast paced work environment so Toronto shouldn't be much of a change for you. (I'm originally from Aberdeen)

I don't know about income tax rates in Ontario but if you check the accountemps website they have information on cost of living index and salaries for accountants. (on the left of the page click on salary guide). Although this isn't exactly what you're looking for it might give you a general idea. www.accountemps.com

Petrol is extremely cheap here compared to what we're used to. Eating out is also very cheap. I suppose after a while once you're earning Canadian dollars you stop continually converting dollars into pounds, but yes in general things are cheaper in Canada.

Let me know if there is anything else I can help with, or any general questions about life here - I can tell you I miss Eastenders and normal Tetley tea, not the Orange Pekoe stuff they have here!

NG

Hello Suze,

I have experience of both the East and more recently the West, as a graduate from the UK. I am always loathe to post answers to these types of questions as someone will invariably disagree, but here goes. Please know that I am not being derogatory about either end of Canada or the Uk, this is just my experience!

Your UK degree won't help you at all. Business degrees gained outside North America are not well regarded. If you have good Maths qualifications and Statistics, you may get lucky with a firm who will test you out in the Finance area. You WILL get entry level pay only, unless you have something they want. I have two friends with business degrees, one at Master's level and both are heading home after a year of getting nothing but $10 an hour entry level jobs they wouldn't even look at in the UK. Any job you get in the first two years is very likely to be under $30k. The pay is absolute crap in Canada, it's worse in Vancouver than TO however. Seven years later I am still nowhere near what I was earning in the UK. My husbands IT experience was totally ignored and undervalued because he didn't have a degree, he eventually just threw it all in and now earns $60k as a long distance lorry driver. I never see him though!

I would respectfully disagree with the poster who said the the salary differential is more than made up for with the quality of life. It's not - you are in a strange country where you are considered a second class applicant for emplyment, you will have no credit for at least two years unless you have loads of dosh or a connection at a bank and MANY things are very expensive. My grocery bill is approximately $280 per week for six of us (4 kids) and was half that in the UK. Clothes are way more expensive and so is furniture (the decent stuff, not MFI type) You will not survive on $24k a year, you'll need two jobs running to live in GTA. Vancouver is much the same, and you have to put up with the West Coast attitude of Vancouver being the best place in the world and you should be grateful for any morsel they throw at you (it isn't the best place in the world, but is a great place if you have money, like the outdoors, aren't female and live outside the horrible areas like E Van, Burnaby, Richmond etc.)

TO is different. It's much more cosmopolitan, has a nice mix of cultures from all round the world and I would say if you don't mind the scenery it's a better place to be as a new immigrant. Jobwise it's saturated though - I know and work with many people there who say it's "on ice" right now. You will not get a decent job without a Social Insurance number, unless you want to wait tables for cash in a dodgy club somewhere. So...I guess I am saying the grass is not always greener! I am stuck here - we came out with money but a year of unemployment and over 60 fruitless job applications left us broke. We both have jobs now, but I had to go back to school and add on to my UK degree to get North American credits they actually recognised. It was very degrading and frankly insulting but I had no choice. Some of the courses (Law, Business etc) were embarrassingly easy but they were held up as superior to anything I had - they are not, but you won't get anything for your type of UK qualifications in the market place without something extra to offer. I do hope it works out for you and you get what you want, but quite honestly I would seriously think about giving up what you have for a maybe.

moving from one country to another represents a huge culture shock and poses
challenges that can sometimes be overwhelming. Therefore, I do not wish to
take issue with 'dingbat' regarding her experiences in Canada. My experience
happens to have been very positive, as has my wife's - though I did have to
change professions. Conversly, my experiences in the U.K. where I still
travel very frequently on business, tend to be largely negative and I am
always relieved to come home to Toronto. Still, this is anecdotal and
neither here nor there.

However, I do want to point out once again that in terms of cost there is
simply no comparison. The U.K. is vastly more expensive than Canada. Please
see

-
http://www.economistconferences.com/PeerGroup/Group_Meeting/Newsletter/PG12-
NEW-5435.pdf

You will note that London ranks as the 6th most expensive city in the world
(with an index of 102); Toronto ranks #73 in the world with an index of 69,
which means that on average, cost of living is almost a third cheaper here
than in London. This is not anecdotal personal experience but hard data
collected by economists.

This may or may not play a role in a person's decision to emmigrate; just
wanted to set the record straight

Regards,
George

    > Hello Suze,
    > I have experience of both the East and more recently the West, as a
    > graduate from the UK. I am always loathe to post answers to these types
    > of questions as someone will invariably disagree, but here goes. Please
    > know that I am not being derogatory about either end of Canada or the
    > Uk, this is just my experience!
    > Your UK degree won't help you at all. Business degrees gained outside
    > North America are not well regarded. If you have good Maths
    > qualifications and Statistics, you may get lucky with a firm who will
    > test you out in the Finance area. You WILL get entry level pay only,
    > unless you have something they want. I have two friends with business
    > degrees, one at Master's level and both are heading home after a year of
    > getting nothing but $10 an hour entry level jobs they wouldn't even look
    > at in the UK. Any job you get in the first two years is very likely to
    > be under $30k. The pay is absolute crap in Canada, it's worse in
    > Vancouver than TO however. Seven years later I am still nowhere near
    > what I was earning in the UK. My husbands IT experience was totally
    > ignored and undervalued because he didn't have a degree, he eventually
    > just threw it all in and now earns $60k as a long distance lorry driver.
    > I never see him though!
    > I would respectfully disagree with the poster who said the the salary
    > differential is more than made up for with the quality of life. It's not
    > - you are in a strange country where you are considered a second class
    > applicant for emplyment, you will have no credit for at least two years
    > unless you have loads of dosh or a connection at a bank and MANY things
    > are very expensive. My grocery bill is approximately $280 per week for
    > six of us (4 kids) and was half that in the UK. Clothes are way more
    > expensive and so is furniture (the decent stuff, not MFI type) You will
    > not survive on $24k a year, you'll need two jobs running to live in GTA.
    > Vancouver is much the same, and you have to put up with the West Coast
    > attitude of Vancouver being the best place in the world and you should
    > be grateful for any morsel they throw at you (it isn't the best place in
    > the world, but is a great place if you have money, like the outdoors,
    > aren't female and live outside the horrible areas like E Van, Burnaby,
    > Richmond etc.)
    > TO is different. It's much more cosmopolitan, has a nice mix of
    > cultures from all round the world and I would say if you don't mind the
    > scenery it's a better place to be as a new immigrant. Jobwise it's
    > saturated though - I know and work with many people there who say it's
    > "on ice" right now. You will not get a decent job without a Social
    > Insurance number, unless you want to wait tables for cash in a dodgy
    > club somewhere. So...I guess I am saying the grass is not always
    > greener! I am stuck here - we came out with money but a year of
    > unemployment and over 60 fruitless job applications left us broke. We
    > both have jobs now, but I had to go back to school and add on to my UK
    > degree to get North American credits they actually recognised. It was
    > very degrading and frankly insulting but I had no choice. Some of the
    > courses (Law, Business etc) were embarrassingly easy but they were held
    > up as superior to anything I had - they are not, but you won't get
    > anything for your type of UK qualifications in the market place without
    > something extra to offer. I do hope it works out for you and you get
    > what you want, but quite honestly I would seriously think about giving
    > up what you have for a maybe.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

    > $24k/year in Toronto? Am I even likely to start at such a salary?

Try
-
http://www.homefair.com/homefair/servlet/ActionServlet?pid=246&previousPage=
245&cid=homefair&fromSalary=24000&fromCity=657&toC ity=199

which says uk24k in London is equivalent to uk19k in Toronto = cdn45k. You
may need

    > I've also been reading about the cost of groceries etc. It would seem

I've only had experience in BC, but the cost of living there seems to be
lower than UK SE. The salary comparison would tend to confirm that.

--
Regards
-Terry

Sorry, what's a lorry driver? I think you meant 18 wheeler truck driver
doing Canada, US and Mexico, didn't you?
Chris

"dingbat" wrote in message
news:441562.1034452934@britishexpats-
.com...
    > Originally posted by suzey:
    > > Hi everyone
    > >
    > > I am 24, unmarried (just finished a six-year cohabitational
    > > relationship with a Canadian) and a UK-born British Citizen.
    > >
    > > Recently I have been seriously considering emigrating to Canada. I
    > > have plenty of family there on my dad's side (aunt, uncle, their
    > > spouses and kids and lots of other cousins), all living in and around
    > > Toronto. Therefore, I would be looking to live and work in the GTA.
    > >
    > > Obviously, I can't get into Canada under the Family Class so I would
    > > be applying as a Skilled Worker. However, I've been reading some of
    > > the threads on here and have become a little disheartened. I'm
    > > worried about what will greet me when I reach Canada. I have a
    > > Bachelor's degree in Business, specialising in Marketing, and have
    > > approx four years' work experience including one at the CHC in London.
    > > I have seen entry-level jobs in Marketing in Toronto at about $24k a
    > > year, but then I saw apartments for rent at $800-$1k a month. Can
    > > people survive on $24k/year in Toronto? Am I even likely to start at
    > > such a salary?
    > >
    > > I've also been reading about the cost of groceries etc. It would seem
    > > that spending £1 is like spending $1 in a lot of cases, but some stuff
    > > just seems so expensive (fruit juice, for example, at $3/litre). I
    > > could earn £24k in London which would allow me to live comfortably but
    > > I would only have to pay about 70p for a litre of orange juice (less
    > > than CAD$2). Therefore, I am little worried that I would not be able
    > > to survive on whatever salary I manage to secure. Does anyone know of
    > > a website which outlines salary indicators for various fields in
    > > Toronto so I can check out likely earnings in marketing professions?
    > >
    > > It's been suggested to me to go to Toronto on holiday and try and get
    > > a job offer while there, in order to get a Work Permit on my return to
    > > the UK (which would most likely be quicker than getting the PR visa).
    > > Does anyone know if you can change employment in Canada if you have
    > > been given a work permit? Also, if you are in Canada on a work
    > > permit, is it quicker and easier to apply for PR from within Canada?
    > >
    > > Finally, what are the immigration interviews like? Can anyone give me
    > > an idea of the kinds of questions they ask?
    > >
    > > Hope someone can help.
    > >
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > > Suze
    > Hello Suze,
    > I have experience of both the East and more recently the West, as a
    > graduate from the UK. I am always loathe to post answers to these types
    > of questions as someone will invariably disagree, but here goes. Please
    > know that I am not being derogatory about either end of Canada or the
    > Uk, this is just my experience!
    > Your UK degree won't help you at all. Business degrees gained outside
    > North America are not well regarded. If you have good Maths
    > qualifications and Statistics, you may get lucky with a firm who will
    > test you out in the Finance area. You WILL get entry level pay only,
    > unless you have something they want. I have two friends with business
    > degrees, one at Master's level and both are heading home after a year of
    > getting nothing but $10 an hour entry level jobs they wouldn't even look
    > at in the UK. Any job you get in the first two years is very likely to
    > be under $30k. The pay is absolute crap in Canada, it's worse in
    > Vancouver than TO however. Seven years later I am still nowhere near
    > what I was earning in the UK. My husbands IT experience was totally
    > ignored and undervalued because he didn't have a degree, he eventually
    > just threw it all in and now earns $60k as a long distance lorry driver.
    > I never see him though!
    > I would respectfully disagree with the poster who said the the salary
    > differential is more than made up for with the quality of life. It's not
    > - you are in a strange country where you are considered a second class
    > applicant for emplyment, you will have no credit for at least two years
    > unless you have loads of dosh or a connection at a bank and MANY things
    > are very expensive. My grocery bill is approximately $280 per week for
    > six of us (4 kids) and was half that in the UK. Clothes are way more
    > expensive and so is furniture (the decent stuff, not MFI type) You will
    > not survive on $24k a year, you'll need two jobs running to live in GTA.
    > Vancouver is much the same, and you have to put up with the West Coast
    > attitude of Vancouver being the best place in the world and you should
    > be grateful for any morsel they throw at you (it isn't the best place in
    > the world, but is a great place if you have money, like the outdoors,
    > aren't female and live outside the horrible areas like E Van, Burnaby,
    > Richmond etc.)
    > TO is different. It's much more cosmopolitan, has a nice mix of
    > cultures from all round the world and I would say if you don't mind the
    > scenery it's a better place to be as a new immigrant. Jobwise it's
    > saturated though - I know and work with many people there who say it's
    > "on ice" right now. You will not get a decent job without a Social
    > Insurance number, unless you want to wait tables for cash in a dodgy
    > club somewhere. So...I guess I am saying the grass is not always
    > greener! I am stuck here - we came out with money but a year of
    > unemployment and over 60 fruitless job applications left us broke. We
    > both have jobs now, but I had to go back to school and add on to my UK
    > degree to get North American credits they actually recognised. It was
    > very degrading and frankly insulting but I had no choice. Some of the
    > courses (Law, Business etc) were embarrassingly easy but they were held
    > up as superior to anything I had - they are not, but you won't get
    > anything for your type of UK qualifications in the market place without
    > something extra to offer. I do hope it works out for you and you get
    > what you want, but quite honestly I would seriously think about giving
    > up what you have for a maybe.
    > --
    > Posted via http://britishexpats.com

[QUOTE][SIZE=1]Originally posted by Chris:
Sorry, what's a lorry driver? I think you meant 18 wheeler truck driver
doing Canada, US and Mexico, didn't you?
Chris

" Yes, precisely.