CalgaryAMC

I am not convinced that starting this thread is a sensible idea, but I have had a couple of PMs about my comments regarding Canadian immigration policy being unfavourable to people from "white countries." It seems to be of interest, hardly surprising since it is a topic that usually invokes hysteria and cries of "racism" before it's started.

I think first it's important to see how Canada's immigration system is different from most others. Canada operates a cherry-picker system, where the government actively recruits foreign applicants in order to cherry pick from the cream of them.

In contrast, other countries, whilst recognizing the need for skilled workers from abroad, operate primarily employer driven systems -- employers drive the demand for skilled workers, select which skilled foreigners they want, and then petition the government to let those specific people in. The US and the UK operate systems like this. In Canada, however, the government believes it can second-guess employers' needs. The result, of course, is thousands of professionals driving taxis.

Canada's skilled worker program is for speculative applicants - people who speculate that they are better off migrating to Canada. People from poor countries face much less risk, because their expected profit (expected income gained minus expected income lossed) is greater. Therefore, the system is favourable to people from poor ("non white") countries. This is broadly the simple economics of moral hazard and adverse selection; any credit issuer could surmise this outcome after a cursory look at Canada's skilled worker program.

There are other aspects of the immigration system - family class being the main one - that are overwhelmingly dominated by a handful of Asian countries, for perhaps even more obvious reasons. Family class immigration can only be used by very close relatives. So the only people who can take advantage of family class immigration are essentially family members of first generation immigrants, who are overwhelmingly non-white (CIC statistics).

Do I think that on a case-by-case basis "non-white" applications are treated differently from "white" ones? No. That's not what I'm talking about. The question is, do I think Canada's immigration system is unfavourable to people from "white" (by which I mean "rich") countries? Yes, for the reasons described above.

dingbat

Absolutely spot on. I should add that the saddest part is the non-white immigrants who end up at the bottom of the pile here - and stay there. I would rather be poor in my own country than in a foreign one, but I guess, judging by the hardships many of my clients endure to stay here, the Canadian dream is enough. One day, I hope they get the lives they worked so hard to achieve.

Glaswegian

I'm going to open myself up to attack by making an utterly selfish comment here.

I came to Canada as an immigrant from a rich country - I jumped through all the PR hoops - language requirements, education requirements, security checks, health checks, financial requirements, etc, etc - then sold up all my assets and shut my business down.

I got here to find, as CalgaryAMC pointed out, that immigrants from certain asian countries could virtually just walk into Canada - no education, financial, language, skill or security checks.

Admittedly these people do walk into a position at the bottom of the heap in society and like Dingbat says they do work hard to achieve their dreams.

However, when I first got here I was unemployed for six months and finally took a job as a lowly PC technician installing printers, so I didn't feel like I had been welcomed as one of the professionals that Canada was allegedly crying out for.

To go through that and then find out that people could pretty much just walk in, without going through the same hoops .... let's just say that I can understand how certain elements of society don't feel like welcoming them too much - I felt like I was at the bottom of the heap and I didn't apprecaite the competition from someone who had got into Canada more easilly than I had.

Three years later life is better - I've got a job approaching the seniority I had in the UK, although on nowhere near the money I was first promised - I'm on the foothills of the heap and clawing my way up - I feel a bit differently now and can be a bit more compassionate about the plight of new immigrants from non-european countries.

CalgaryAMC

Canada is in the process of overhauling its family class immigration program, as Australia has done.

willmore

Well, that's certainly a start....but the entire system needs to overhauled, that's been proven by the number of times the feds have had to "wipe egg off their face" for allowing undesirables into the country without properly checking them out.

iaink

I would say that the system itself is colour blind. The difference might just be in the expectations of the candidates.

I would disagree that Canada operates a cherry picker system. In many respects it is the opposite in that it is relatively open to all, and the standards are relatively low. Occupation based systems have been tried in the past and failed as they lack flexibility. The highly qualified taxi drivers and pizza delivery people are not due entirely to the government getting it wrong, but the government really needs to wheald some influence over the licensing bodies to get these people to work in there expert fields. In the last few years there has been more public frustration about this (especially regarding healthcare) so maybe something will be done to rectify this.

If you are giving up a relatively safe and comfortable existence in the west to come to Canada and start again from scratch, then in my opinion you will have a totally different outlook to someone coming from a poorer country and lifestyle, where the step up to canadian living standards is that much greater. I really dont accept that people from the developing world (for want of a better term) walk into any kind of easy life here. I am just really glad I have never been in a situation where I would be regarded as a refugee, i cant imagine many things worse than that and certainly dont begrudge them any hand up they can get.

Family class is a cheap target. When you look at the rules it is quite restrictive, but there is nothing to stop anyone bringing family over, so to argue it favours non whites is wrong. The fact that it appears that non whites take up the option more often is hardly the fault of the system.

Personally I dont think that the canadian immigration system favours any one group. If anything the language proof requirements and the ridiculously long waiting times for some asian/african stations, and the relatively high landing fees relative to asian/african incomes mean you could argue that its actually stacked against asian or african applicants.

In some respects it takes a much larger sacrifice for a poorer person to gather together the landing fees etc for a skilled worker application, but there is more to gain, so perhaps they are more accepting of having to go through all the hoops to get here. I guess what I am really saying is that those of us coming from the UK are spoiled in the firstplace, and less accepting of having to start from scratch???


Maybe Im totally missing the point of this thread?

CalgaryAMC

No system is 100% perfect. There will always be the false positive/negative balancing act. It's a question of minimizing both.

That said, Canada has been notoriously sloppy, letting in people smugglers and gang leaders, but since 9/11 has been compelled to clean up its act quite a bit.

I am not convinced that family-class immigration is the primary avenue of entry for these types though (I may be wrong). I would have thought business class would have been, although business class applicants may be subject to more scrutiny by the RCMP...

Glaswegian

Eh?? Would anyone who is currently going through a skilled worker application care to comment on that one?

If you're coming here as a skilled woker, you probably don't think you'll be starting from scratch, I didn't realise I was until I got here.

They walk into a really tough life at the bottom of the heap, nobody said they didn't.

I didn't think that this thread had said anything against refugees - if they're real refugees they need all the help they can get.

No, but everybody should have to jump through the same hoops. I still have a brother in the UK, I don't think that he should get any sort of favourable treatment if he wants to come to Canada.

True - but is that what anyone coming from the UK REALLY expects?? Way back in 2000 in the days of the prefered occupations list, that wasn't the expectation I was encouraged to develop. Speaking to employment agents in Ontario I thought I would walk into a comparable job based on my UK experience.

In short, I was sold a pup ......

Glaswegian

I echo that sentiment .......

iaink

What I meant by that is that the rules are clearly stated, and if you have a degree and english competency, then (at the current points threshold) all things being equal you have a good chance of acceptance. Its not dependent on competing with thousands of other similarly qualified candidates as some other systems are, so I think its a fair anbd level playing field. The worst thing about it is just the waiting , and waiting, and waiting...


In principal maybe you are right, but in practice without family class sponsorship, Canada loses in the long run. Many immigrants who come here to join family would otherwise be having money sent out of the country to support them, so better to accept them here and keep the money in the local economy. Family members have to be financially sponsored anyway, so it is not costing anything, except perhaps some cometition for jobs. Without family class, I suspect that the return rate out of canada would be a lot higher. When you look at the rules, I dont know how many extra immigrants make it in under this class anyway.


As with anything else, immigration is a case of "buyer beware" Hopefully most of those who come to this forum have had there eyes opened a little bit to what can be the reality of immigration. For some its business as usual, and for others its a quick slide back to the bottom and years of hard slog to get back up.

Cheers

Iain

Glaswegian

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at some of those tests.

Maybe they should give skilled worker immigrants a badge or t-shirt to wear, it might make you feel better (that was irony for anyone who didn't spot it)

There's quite a few here, then again we're closer to asia. As for genuine family sponsorship when hardship bites, I think that's a bit of a pipe dream.

Pity I couldn't have found this forum back in 2000 ....

CalgaryAMC

Yes. But consider Canadian professionals - doctors and nurses - who go down to the US. They don't fill out an application form to get awarded any points. They are brought in by employers who want to hire them, and petition the USCIS for a TN visa to do that. That system appears to work, judging by how many Canadian trained medical professionals flee south every year, whilst supposed doctors drive taxis in Canada.

I think that if medical hiring boards had control over who they sponsored for immigration, you'd see a lot more foreign-trained medical professionals being brought into Canada to practice. As it is, they have no control and are reluctant to touch anyone who just rocks up claiming to be a doctor, in the certain knowledge that CIC has not done the job properly for them.

Agreed. Asylum and refugee policy is complex and I would be reluctant to criticise it. It's an area where you have to accept a higher proportion of false positives because people's lives are at stake.

There is something to stop anyone bringing family over: that family has to be an immediate relative. No grandchildren allowed. So that means you must be a first-generation immigrant to sponsor someone. Less than a quarter of potential sponsors in Canada are today coming from "white" countries (http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pub/fac...gration_5.html).

You're right, it is stacked against them. And your average Asian applicant is not applying or being accepted. It's the most needed of their societies that are leaving.

Nobody starts from scratch. They start up or start down or start the same.

I think you have been fooled into regarding Canada's immigration system as something virtuous, almost charitable, that goes about the world seeking to rescue people from their plights and give them a chance at a new life. If only it was. But it's not - it's sleazy, dishonest and disfunctional. The US or UK systems, by contrast, are completely disfunctional, but not nearly as dishonest or sleazy.

CalgaryAMC

Well it has not yet descended into mud slinging and accusation throwing, so my fears have not yet materialized thankfully.

CalgaryAMC

Let me also say I approve wholeheartedly of family class immigration. It is humane and sensible. I disapprove of where Australia has gone with it.

My point in mentioning family class immigration was to show how Canada's skilled worker system, that is proven to be more appealing to one group (generally from poor countries), then builds upon itself and propogates increasingly less diverse immigration - as in fact is the case, with a handful of countries generating bigger and bigger proportions of overall immigration to Canada.

Family based immigration is not the root of the issue and I don't believe it should be fundamentally altered.

Glaswegian

Give it time, I'm sure it will get there .....