I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Feb 18th 2011, 2:20 pm
#106
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Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,019
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Thank you but I'm confident that I know more about autism than I ever wanted to.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
Last edited by dbd33; Feb 18th 2011 at 2:24 pm.
Feb 18th 2011, 2:39 pm
#108
no I aint
Joined: Mar 2008
Location: The dog house
Posts: 2,100
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Thank you but I'm confident that I know more about autism than I ever wanted to.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
Would also add though, the name ASD doesn't help. Classic autism is a point on that spectrum and the name of a big wide spectrum that seems to encompass a whole lot more. When I think of autism I don't think slightly odd, may need a little extra help at school.
Feb 18th 2011, 3:28 pm
#109
Onwards and upwards!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: North West UK
Posts: 288
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Thank you but I'm confident that I know more about autism than I ever wanted to.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
im sorry but this kind of attitude is what stops people on the autistic spectrum disorder from being recognized as the wonderful people they are!
until you meet people like my son you have no idea of the change in him since he came to canada.....having a massive change like emigration is a window of opportunity for the ASD person (which they like to be called, having worked with many Autistic adults that is what they have told me) to make changes and they seem to accelerate suddenly.
You are entitled to your opinion and i'm now saying that they shouldn't have looked more into my sons case, however, he should have had the opportunity to have had an interview with the IO so that she could see what they are dealing with. Their opinion was based on an assessment done 2 and half years ago, completed in a paper excercise in a strange place with someone he didn't know. Our assessment was completed by a psychologist who works with Autistic adults everyday, and could make an informed judgement as to his capability of working and not being a drain on the state.
We also had in place that if anything happened to my OH and I then my son would go back to England to be with family not stay in Canada...that was all put in place but they chose to ignore it.
As i've said before, it is what it is, but someone has said that someone with a disability would be better in Europe is untrue. People here in our town anyway are very accepting of the disabled and when i ran the Day program i made sure they got out in the community and integrated. Kids here don't bully the same as they do in the UK. I've had one incident of this in 2 and half years and that was done by an English kid! There is zero tolerance here to bullying and it was dealt with very effectively!
Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I have made the decision to go home even though we had a 70-80 % chance of winning in court if we challenged it, so i would appreciate a little respect for that to, knowing when to quit.
Feb 18th 2011, 3:45 pm
#110
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Joined: Oct 2010
Location: Previously Cambridge UK, but now Cochrane AB!
Posts: 309
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Thank you but I'm confident that I know more about autism than I ever wanted to.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
I don't buy this at all:
"It's only when people on the spectrum are younger that they need the extra help and funding. By the time they're adults they've learned how to cope with situations that they couldn't cope with as children."
Can you point to an example of someone who became less autistic over time? A single case where money spent on that person early in their life resulted in them being less disabled later? I don't think it happens. I think the diagnostic criteria are so lacking in definition that anyone who is NT now can be claimed to have been autistic before and that no one has an interest in finding that, despite the best efforts of many, a lack of progress is typical.
I think "autism" is used to refer to such a wide range of conditions that the merely eccentric are included. Such people are then used to make the case that autistic people can function in society. There hasn't been a shift though, the person is still at the same place "on the spectrum" as before, the slightly odd are still slightly odd (Bill Gates for example) while the head bangers are still banging their heads. Someone who is autistic enough to attract the attention of the immigration authorities, someone for whom the school system has to have a plan, is at their long term level of function. If they seem disabled as a child then they're going to seem disabled as an adult and they're going to cost.
It may be wrong for immigration to be based on bodies offering the best bang for the buck, but, so long as it is, the autistic are a bad bet.
And I never said people become less autistic over time, obviously they don't. But they do learn strategies of how to cope with situations that they may have struggled with as children. I can think of many examples of this. In fact, some pediatricians here in the UK are now starting to 'un-diagnose' some of these people who have coped extremely well (to the point where no one would suspect they're on the spectrum) as adults.
Feb 18th 2011, 3:55 pm
#111
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
i can give you an example.....my son...i have video evidence to prove it too!!!
im sorry but this kind of attitude is what stops people on the autistic spectrum disorder from being recognized as the wonderful people they are!
until you meet people like my son you have no idea of the change in him since he came to canada.....having a massive change like emigration is a window of opportunity for the ASD person (which they like to be called, having worked with many Autistic adults that is what they have told me) to make changes and they seem to accelerate suddenly.
You are entitled to your opinion and i'm now saying that they shouldn't have looked more into my sons case, however, he should have had the opportunity to have had an interview with the IO so that she could see what they are dealing with. Their opinion was based on an assessment done 2 and half years ago, completed in a paper excercise in a strange place with someone he didn't know. Our assessment was completed by a psychologist who works with Autistic adults everyday, and could make an informed judgement as to his capability of working and not being a drain on the state.
We also had in place that if anything happened to my OH and I then my son would go back to England to be with family not stay in Canada...that was all put in place but they chose to ignore it.
As i've said before, it is what it is, but someone has said that someone with a disability would be better in Europe is untrue. People here in our town anyway are very accepting of the disabled and when i ran the Day program i made sure they got out in the community and integrated. Kids here don't bully the same as they do in the UK. I've had one incident of this in 2 and half years and that was done by an English kid! There is zero tolerance here to bullying and it was dealt with very effectively!
Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I have made the decision to go home even though we had a 70-80 % chance of winning in court if we challenged it, so i would appreciate a little respect for that to, knowing when to quit.
im sorry but this kind of attitude is what stops people on the autistic spectrum disorder from being recognized as the wonderful people they are!
until you meet people like my son you have no idea of the change in him since he came to canada.....having a massive change like emigration is a window of opportunity for the ASD person (which they like to be called, having worked with many Autistic adults that is what they have told me) to make changes and they seem to accelerate suddenly.
You are entitled to your opinion and i'm now saying that they shouldn't have looked more into my sons case, however, he should have had the opportunity to have had an interview with the IO so that she could see what they are dealing with. Their opinion was based on an assessment done 2 and half years ago, completed in a paper excercise in a strange place with someone he didn't know. Our assessment was completed by a psychologist who works with Autistic adults everyday, and could make an informed judgement as to his capability of working and not being a drain on the state.
We also had in place that if anything happened to my OH and I then my son would go back to England to be with family not stay in Canada...that was all put in place but they chose to ignore it.
As i've said before, it is what it is, but someone has said that someone with a disability would be better in Europe is untrue. People here in our town anyway are very accepting of the disabled and when i ran the Day program i made sure they got out in the community and integrated. Kids here don't bully the same as they do in the UK. I've had one incident of this in 2 and half years and that was done by an English kid! There is zero tolerance here to bullying and it was dealt with very effectively!
Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I have made the decision to go home even though we had a 70-80 % chance of winning in court if we challenged it, so i would appreciate a little respect for that to, knowing when to quit.
You're right about the horrible attitudes out there about autism. I can totally sympathise with you in this regard. I don't think anyone can truly understand it unless they have a child on the spectrum. My daughter has also developed amazingly in her social skills etc since she was first diagnosed and received the help she needs.
Feb 18th 2011, 3:57 pm
#112
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Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Ontario
Posts: 40,019
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
I suggest that cause and effect is very difficult to establish with autism spectrum disorders (refer the failed, but initially plausible, case against MMR vaccinations). To say that a shift in the condition is consequent on moving house is not something I can imagine doing with confidence.
(for anyone not familiar with autism, btw, this is what it is:
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-autism.html)
Perhaps rather than arguing that your son is autistic but inexpensive, the way forward would be to argue that he's not autistic at all.
That was me. It does, of course, depend on the financial circumstances of the person and the comment applies specifically to autism, but, in Europe someone disabled by autism is ultimately the responsibility of the government. In Canada that person is ultimately the responsibility of the family. If the siblings of the disabled person are well heeled, willing to devote their lives to that person, and lovers of ice hockey, then he or she might be better off in Canada. Otherwise, given the propensity of close relatives to drop dead or develop other interests in life, I think the disabled person is likely better off in Europe.
Feb 18th 2011, 4:00 pm
#113
Onwards and upwards!
Thread Starter
Joined: Dec 2009
Location: North West UK
Posts: 288
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
I should have worded it better. I meant the high-functioning people on the spectrum - they usually only need the extra help & support when they're younger. They don't usually need it as adults.
And I never said people become less autistic over time, obviously they don't. But they do learn strategies of how to cope with situations that they may have struggled with as children. I can think of many examples of this. In fact, some pediatricians here in the UK are now starting to 'un-diagnose' some of these people who have coped extremely well (to the point where no one would suspect they're on the spectrum) as adults.
And I never said people become less autistic over time, obviously they don't. But they do learn strategies of how to cope with situations that they may have struggled with as children. I can think of many examples of this. In fact, some pediatricians here in the UK are now starting to 'un-diagnose' some of these people who have coped extremely well (to the point where no one would suspect they're on the spectrum) as adults.
Your absolutely right, they learn to cope with things they couldn't as a child as they understand more and get used to stuff. Desensitization I think they call it!!
My son couldn't cope with going in supermarkets when he was young and we had to throw him over our shoulders and carry him out kicking and screaming and punching us, however, today he loves going shopping. I give him a list and he goes and gets the stuff!
He made me laugh yesterday...I said to him "what have you done at school today", "cooking" he said, "oh what did you make?", I asked, "noodles" he said (thats pasta in Canada), "oh, what did you make with it?", and he listed a load of stuff off like garlic, tomatoes etc, "oh that sounds nice, did you save me some", "no", he said, "i ate it!"
That is something he would never have done before we came to Canada, he ate all the cinnamon biscuits he made and loves making sugar cookies and his favorite chocolate cake!
Feb 18th 2011, 4:01 pm
#114
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Location: Ontario
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
There's a huge problem with diagnosis of a condition that's defined as being debilitating in that, as soon as someone recovers, they never had it in the first place. I see that but the autism industry is ever eager to produce people who've experienced "miracle cures" so I'm highly suspicious.
Feb 18th 2011, 4:12 pm
#115
Onwards and upwards!
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Joined: Dec 2009
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Posts: 288
Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
If there has indeed been such a change then I would take that as evidence that the son is not autistic. A characteristic of autism is an inability to deal with change, often exhibited as a need for a routine. Autistic people are often said to live "in their own world" and so are not much given to noticing changes in circumstances around them.
I suggest that cause and effect is very difficult to establish with autism spectrum disorders (refer the failed, but initially plausible, case against MMR vaccinations). To say that a shift in the condition is consequent on moving house is not something I can imagine doing with confidence.
That a person can conceive of a spectrum of disorder and place him or herself on that spectrum clashes with the central feature of autism; the lack of empathetic thought. It may be, of course, that the people in question know "autism" to be perjorative and ASD not, rather than them attaching greater meaning to the expressions.
(for anyone not familiar with autism, btw, this is what it is:
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-autism.html)
Perhaps rather than arguing that your son is autistic but inexpensive, the way forward would be to argue that he's not autistic at all.
That was me. It does, of course, depend on the financial circumstances of the person and the comment applies specifically to autism, but, in Europe someone disabled by autism is ultimately the responsibility of the government. In Canada that person is ultimately the responsibility of the family. If the siblings of the disabled person are well heeled, willing to devote their lives to that person, and lovers of ice hockey, then he or she might be better off in Canada. Otherwise, given the propensity of close relatives to drop dead or develop other interests in life, I think the disabled person is likely better off in Europe.
I suggest that cause and effect is very difficult to establish with autism spectrum disorders (refer the failed, but initially plausible, case against MMR vaccinations). To say that a shift in the condition is consequent on moving house is not something I can imagine doing with confidence.
That a person can conceive of a spectrum of disorder and place him or herself on that spectrum clashes with the central feature of autism; the lack of empathetic thought. It may be, of course, that the people in question know "autism" to be perjorative and ASD not, rather than them attaching greater meaning to the expressions.
(for anyone not familiar with autism, btw, this is what it is:
http://www.autreat.com/dsm4-autism.html)
Perhaps rather than arguing that your son is autistic but inexpensive, the way forward would be to argue that he's not autistic at all.
That was me. It does, of course, depend on the financial circumstances of the person and the comment applies specifically to autism, but, in Europe someone disabled by autism is ultimately the responsibility of the government. In Canada that person is ultimately the responsibility of the family. If the siblings of the disabled person are well heeled, willing to devote their lives to that person, and lovers of ice hockey, then he or she might be better off in Canada. Otherwise, given the propensity of close relatives to drop dead or develop other interests in life, I think the disabled person is likely better off in Europe.
I can assure you as i work with Autistic adults that this is not the case.
Why should they not be called Autistics or Aspergers, if you ever speak to adults with Aspergers, many are actually proud to have that label and will often introduce themselves as such. There is no shame in having that label.
your check list for diagnosis, does not continue through their lives, if this was the case you are basically saying that they cannot learn anything or live a normal life, which again is totally untrue.
Have you lived or worked with Autistic adults and/or children? I think until you have lived or worked with both you are unqualified to make your comments. I have and i have lived worked/breathed Autism for 15 years in all its varying degrees. Autism is a spectrum and all people on it are different and have different needs.
I would suggest you do more research into this spectrum then come back with a valid argument. We have all read stuff on the internet and read books but until you have lived and/or worked with adults and children alike to be able to make a comparison then in my opinion you are not qualified to make statements like this.
Feb 18th 2011, 4:19 pm
#116
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
There's a huge problem with diagnosis of a condition that's defined as being debilitating in that, as soon as someone recovers, they never had it in the first place. I see that but the autism industry is ever eager to produce people who've experienced "miracle cures" so I'm highly suspicious.
Be as highly suspicious as you like; it's a fact that they are starting to un-diagnose. You can call my pediatrician and ask her yourself if you like!
Feb 18th 2011, 4:26 pm
#117
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
So if i read this right you are basically saying that my son or anyone else diagnosed with Autism as a child will always stay the same way as adults?
I can assure you as i work with Autistic adults that this is not the case.
Why should they not be called Autistics or Aspergers, if you ever speak to adults with Aspergers, many are actually proud to have that label and will often introduce themselves as such. There is no shame in having that label.
your check list for diagnosis, does not continue through their lives, if this was the case you are basically saying that they cannot learn anything or live a normal life, which again is totally untrue.
Have you lived or worked with Autistic adults and/or children? I think until you have lived or worked with both you are unqualified to make your comments. I have and i have lived worked/breathed Autism for 15 years in all its varying degrees. Autism is a spectrum and all people on it are different and have different needs.
I would suggest you do more research into this spectrum then come back with a valid argument. We have all read stuff on the internet and read books but until you have lived and/or worked with adults and children alike to be able to make a comparison then in my opinion you are not qualified to make statements like this.
I can assure you as i work with Autistic adults that this is not the case.
Why should they not be called Autistics or Aspergers, if you ever speak to adults with Aspergers, many are actually proud to have that label and will often introduce themselves as such. There is no shame in having that label.
your check list for diagnosis, does not continue through their lives, if this was the case you are basically saying that they cannot learn anything or live a normal life, which again is totally untrue.
Have you lived or worked with Autistic adults and/or children? I think until you have lived or worked with both you are unqualified to make your comments. I have and i have lived worked/breathed Autism for 15 years in all its varying degrees. Autism is a spectrum and all people on it are different and have different needs.
I would suggest you do more research into this spectrum then come back with a valid argument. We have all read stuff on the internet and read books but until you have lived and/or worked with adults and children alike to be able to make a comparison then in my opinion you are not qualified to make statements like this.
Feb 18th 2011, 4:34 pm
#118
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
I can assure you as i work with Autistic adults that this is not the case.
Why should they not be called Autistics or Aspergers, if you ever speak to adults with Aspergers, many are actually proud to have that label and will often introduce themselves as such. There is no shame in having that label.
Why should they not be called Autistics or Aspergers, if you ever speak to adults with Aspergers, many are actually proud to have that label and will often introduce themselves as such. There is no shame in having that label.
"lack of social or emotional reciprocity"
means not noticing what people call you, not caring about it. The concept of pride is alien to a person with autism as it implies the ability to recognize that other people have thoughts and those thoughts may differ from one's own. Like it says on the buttons "Auties don't do Empathy".
I think your reference must be to people who have mild autism spectrum disorders.
I don't think there's any need for direct exposure to a medical condition to hold an opinion about it in the context of immigration. I'll forgo lurid examples. I accept that there are a variety of conditions lumped in with autism as spectrum disorders some of which the man in the street would not recognize as disorders at all.
Feb 18th 2011, 4:36 pm
#119
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
Feb 18th 2011, 6:20 pm
#120
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Re: I'm going home, i've done my time!!
It does..its called early intervention