Canada2006

Everyone,

Let's be clear that we're dealing with very emotive subjects here where facts are not allowed to get in the way of a bit of mud slinging.

Remember it's good practice in life to:
- not offend others
- follow up view points with evidence, so that can be links etc
- remember that there are two sides to every story.

There are two things that worry me about this whole thread:
1. the desire to paint a picture of the UK that is very pesimistic and for which the fault lies clearly with immigrants
2. the fact that people are loosing sight of the big picture! There are 60 million people in the UK. How many are nasty chavs and chavettes wanting to make your life hell? 0,0001% (I'm guessing, but can't be far off)

Let's not be so down on the UK! It's a great place. I do think that those who become immigrants themselves in order to escape immigrants are unlikely to be happy in their new found country.

dbd33

Is this an allegory and, if so, is George Bush the woman besieged or the mob?

sinope

Good post Canada.

sinope

Sorry for late answer, I do agree that the taking over of an area by a certain group of people is not a bad thing, and can be wonderful and a great thing. I think that the worry with the mosque is that it will be a focal point for those (minority) Muslims who would like to see Britain ruled by Sharia law and (cliche alert folks) a breeding ground for terrorism especially as the group funding it appear to have links with 9/11 terrorist cells. Anyway here is the link to an article about it all:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article...892780,00.html

Sorry to go off-topic on yet another thread.

windward

England isn't so bad.. I think the problem lies simply with what you can express in a couple of posts on a forum... and the old adage you get trotted out to you when you're being 'trained' in any kind of customer service role: "People remember bad experiences not good ones. Give someone a bad experience and they will tell 20 others."

I lived in Whalley Range in Manchester with my Canuck ex from the start of 2005 til recently and had thousands of positive experiences, but now it's too easy to point to the girl shot there last week, and the 16 year old killed in the park just outside Moss Side.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/cri...cle1772343.ece

We lived, quite literally round the corner from the recent shooting, walked through Moss Side regularly to get to Asda for 7 months, and picniced/ran/walked/played football in said park every weekend. I admit, it is difficult to weigh 13 months of relative peace - though we were burgled three times .lol. - against the fact that I know now I probably walked past people carrying guns almost every day...

I certainly wouldn't go back there, but I think you need to have some balance about these things. Even England's little rural idylls are subject to both petty crime and horrific murders but overall, our islands are a relatively safe place to be.

.. Personally I just think we should have more posts in the line of one I saw recently; entitled something along the lines of 'A Good Day in England'.

OT - Bad laws both. A friend of mine in the Police hates the way the system works here as apparently the honest folk "Well yes I hit the ignorant sh*t but he groped my girlfriend, what was I supposed to do?" are 9 times out of 10 the ones who end up with records, and the lying "I wossunt there guv, you can't prove nuffink" scum we really need off our streets get away with it because of restrictive regulations, the sometimes leeches on society we call lawyers, and, often, the fact that their parents have been doing it for decades, know just how to get away with it, and pass this knowledge, rather than respect for other people, onto their spawn.

.. Anyone read Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance btw? Should be required reading for schoolkids imo.

Garfielduk

That is exactly the one I was talking about so maybe someone can answer my post or to put it more simply :

"Do you agree with the Judges decision ?"

Canada2006

I agree with the judge's decision. The law is there to be followed and must be to th latter. If people take the law into their own hands they create anarchy, and believe me, if you don't like yobs, who do you think will rule the roost under an anarchy. It certainly won't be me.

The lady in question should have insisted on police action, asbos, taken evidence and followed the law. It might need adapting, but it's there for good reason.

windward

But it takes people years sometimes to build up enough evidence to get a harsh enough conviction. I'm sure we've all seen the 'Neighbours from Hell' docs with people investing in video cameras and being told they need to keep diaries of the abuse and collect dozens of tapes.

Even then, the chances are this woman would only have been subject to further harassment for standing up for her rights.

Judge - Right decision.
Law - Wrong.

Garfielduk

I totally disagree with you and so do the majority of people I have spoken to about this; the law as it stands gives ALL powers to the criminal or original law breaker, a lot commit such crimes because they know that the majority will not stop them which is all well and good if the Police or the Council do their damned job properly but they don't and if you want an example here it is (fact not fiction). A colleague of mine spoke today of attending a Council organised meeting for an Area of Manchester to see how their Neighbourhood Warden system was working, 2 or 3 reps went from each housing estate or small area and there were 60 residents at the meeting plus council wardens and some other personnel who had neighbourhood powers. My colleague said there was a lot of patting each other on the back from the council staff, etc so she let them finish and then asked them why the Wardens who patrolled th area came by her house, saw a gang of youths and kids aged from as small as 6 years of age to 17 late at night and did not stop to ask them why they were in a gang (by the way the council have basically banned gangs) and to take them home in the transit van (that is what it is for) to their parents. They aparently drove up halfway onto the pavement to get past them as they were blocking half the road. So that is what people are p****d about, authorities, police or otherwise that don't do what they say they will do.

Canada2006

There are several aspects to what you are saying.

1/ I'm sorry, the law must always be adhered to. Full stop.

2/ Children are people and have the right to meet in the street. Just because they're there, doesn't mean they're causing problems.
-> you can go further, why are children on the street? There's no where else to go! Where's the real problem here?

3/ The authorities will never be able to deal with 100% of cases - you wouldn't be prepared to pay the taxes for that - and high tax would cause more problems... but to their credit they do keep 99% of streets problem free 99% of the time. Give them a patt on the back.

Oh, by the way, if you're still not happy, change your vote at the next election - maybe stand yourself with your solutions and you'll have influence in your region police constabulary and/or council. If you don't like it change it - don't moan about it.

Garfielduk

I've heard all your arguments before, you are obviously the type of person who thinks kids do no wrong and instead of punishing them for criminal acts would treat them with cotton gloves.Maybe you would take them on holiday because they were just bored when they terrorised their neighbours and threw bricks through their car windows. Get Real !

I don't know what gives you the right to tell me not to moan about it when the law is an ass. Just because it is the law of the country does not mean it is morally correct. I suppose you think it is right for a judge to give 18 months for slapping a youth on the face and only 6 months to someone killing a person on the road for dangerous driving eh ! If so you are definitely in the minority luv

dbd33

I generally agree with Canada2006; the judge has no option but to apply the law as written and those who object to the law as written have options to change it. I suspect the woman in this case is being treated generously by the newspapers as the "country gone to the dogs" theme suits their agenda.

dbd33

According to the Barnsley Chronicle (link upthread) she'd lived there for a week so this tale is, at least, misleading.

Canada2006

1/ I would look at why people misbehave rather than just punishing, yes. There are root causes I would rather treat than just symptoms

2/ Never moan if you're not prepared to get off your ass and do something about it.

Garfielduk

I don't particularly care how long she lived there, the fact is she was abused by the gang of youths.