FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

This has probably been covered before on forums but as a 41 year old starting the process of emigration I think it is a discussion which should be kept alive and ongoing for current and future ex-pats as we should really take action against this robbery by the British Government….especially the older generation of us!!!

I will have paid NI contributions for 25 years by the time we move to Canada and with the payment period dropping (hopefully) to 30 years to qualify for full state pension I really need to consider if it is actually worth paying the extra 5 years of NI’s to qualify….or feel when I do qualify for a 25 year element of state pension I have wasted money….even though it is MY decision to leave and go to Canada. BUT why should a country like Canada who is still part of the Commonwealth with massive UK ties be excluded from the increase in pensions for the ex-pats as is Australia & South Africa etc etc……yet BOSNIA isn’t. Canada would benefit as detailed below as we would but there again being cynical this is probably the reason.

I think It’s an utter disgrace and I will support the action being taken by

www.britishpensions.com

Some people might already be aware of this issue but as I read through various threads it becomes apparent some people can’t even decide which area to live and work let alone the future state of their finances which in latter life (not too far away for some of us) this could have implications so I thought I would bring it up and the above website to people’s attention.

I’m sure people will let me know what they think regarding this but here is some info meanwhile.

Cheers Dave






The Canadian Experience
UK Frozen Expatriate Pensioners Living In Canada
142,000 British expatriates living in Canada are receiving some level of UK state pension from the period they worked, paid taxes, served their country, and contributed to the mandatory state pension plan whilst residing in the UK.
We believe that there are thousands of others who have an entitlement, based on their contributions whilst living in the UK, but may not be aware of it and have not applied for it.
Many of them, in the two decades after the war, were aggressively encouraged to emigrate to Commonwealth countries by the British Government.
Their pensions were frozen from the date they received their first cheque in Canada and they have never received any uprating. The same situation exists for a total of some 460,000 frozen expatriate pensioners.
390,000 other pensioners, who contributed in exactly the same way, but happen to live in the EU, USA, Israel, Bosnia-Herzegovina, amongst other countries, receive the same annual uprating as UK-resident pensioners.
Although you may not be in great financial difficulty personally, there are many non-uprated pensioners in Canada who are. Even more desperate are those non-uprated pensioners who are living in countries without any social net such as those in South Africa and Zimbabwe.
The Impact On A Pensioner's Income
A couple who decided to move to Canada to be near their children, following retirement on a full pension in Britain, were in their mid-nineties and living in a provincial nursing home. They had run out of money, yet they should not have done. By 1998, Pension freezing had short-changed them £71,000 ($175,000) since retirement. If they had lived twenty miles to the south, in USA, their pension would not have been frozen! It is reprehensible to treat these individuals in such a way. No matter how financially secure a frozen pensioner, a loss of such a quantity of money must have an adverse effect on one's standard of living. The important and valuable benefits to Canada and all the Canadian Taxpayers from an end to pension freezing will mean:

1. a direct injection of some $200 million/year (1998 UK estimate) into the Canadian economy
2. frozen pensioners will be better able to afford the standard of living they should have expected in their retirement years
3. from the Government point of view, it will also result in a significant reduction in pressure on the Canadian and provincial economies as Britain will be paying for the portion of social costs which is properly the responsibility of the UK Government. Individuals on lower incomes will be in a better position to be able to pay for many of the social services they may now be receiving, and probably need, but which are unaffordable to them.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

If the potential for increased revenue from the UK tax payer is important why not move somewhere that you would get it, the US for example, or, for that matter, just stay in the UK?

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

In any case, I think the odds of getting any kind of state pension from the UK in 20 years are pretty slim, so I wouldn't much worry about it.

Personally I regard all the money I've had to pay in National Insurance as a total loss and expect to have to work at least part-time for the rest of my life. The demographics in the UK simply do not work when combined with a bloated welfare state.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Mark

This is exactly how we think about it. By the time Phil and I are pensionable age there will be nothing left in the pot or if there is it wont make that much difference to our retirement income.

Gaynor
x

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Without a doubt the freezing of pensions is a disgrace. In my opinion so to is the whole QROPS thing - does anyone have any experience with this? I am having a hard time transferring a UK personal pension to Canada. I Have treid a couple of institutions that are supposedly QROPS approved but the transfer always seems to get bogged-down in buearocracy and they end up walking away from it. I think the key thing is that I don't want to transfer into a "locked-in" fund and although there are pension products listed on the QROPS list that are supposedly not locked-in I cant seem to get anyone to transfer into a non-locked in fund.

Can I ask - to all those people who have successfully managed to transfer - have you all transfered into "locked-in" funds or has anyone managed to transfer into a regular RSP?

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

:zzz::zzz: Yawn

It's important coz I have paid money into it and just because your somewhere else in the world why should you be disadvantaged.

Thought it might take a little bit longer than post No2 for someone to come up with a sarcastic answer but hey ho….either it doesn’t affect you or you don’t care so why bother replying.

As MarG said the amount of money we would prob get from the pension will be miniscule and not worth bothering about anyway but we have paid it so why should we not be entitled to it as the other many 1000’s have.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Thats the dilema realy aint it. Some people say sack it all and forget it others say pay the remainder of your stamp...you won't get any increase but would be a waste to throw away 20 odd years of contributions.

Maybe the way forward is to pay the total amount then when elligeable take a max amount one off lump sum then right it off after that.

:blink::confused:

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Didnt this already get all the way to being appealed and losing in the house of lords a couple of years back. I dont see what is to be gained by trying again, legal precedent has been established by the highest court in the country.

It is what it is, once you start claiming the pension, it will be frozen at that amount. As long as you go into this emmigrating business knowing that you wont be surprised.

Relying on state pension provision isnt my plan A anyway, anything I get from them by the time I retire will be considered a bonus.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

It's not a sarcastic answer. People leaving the UK now are not being mislead or cheated if they decide to choose a destination where pensions are not indexed over one where they are. If you choose Canada then you know you won't get that money and there's no case for changing the rules to suit you.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

cousin joe has been in st thomas for over 40 yrs . he has just applied and got 15 yrs of credit pensions . the cost to him to pay back for those yrs was , because he had underpaid was just under £1. that is the time between leaving the u k and whilst working in the u k

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Well why can't rules be changed thats what they are there for are the not.

Can anyone then shed any light on WHY it is these commonwealth contries that suffer and places like the USA and Bosnia etc don't.

What's the difference then please.

I also will not be relying on my state pension it would be foolish to rely on that....However I think if you have paid into something for X amount of years you should get the benefits...you can keep tax free ISA's going when you leave and other savings plans prob coz the country still has your money invested in it therefore it just seems to be a money saving exercise by the Gov.

BUT there are many implications and arguments I suppose for and against.....it's my money so I guess I'm for...and why would you not be afterall

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Hey, I think we would all be for it. BUT. ITS. NOT. GOING. TO. HAPPEN.

It's been thought over by the great and the good, they made their decision, its been appealed as high as you can go. It is what it is, you might as well stand on the beach and command the tide not to come in.

I dont know the reasoning behind it, its probably something to do with reciprocal agreements, it usually is in cases like this. Llike everyone else it seems grossly unfair to me, but it isnt the first unjust ruling ever made, and it wont be the last. Cant change it, not going to worry about it.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Yeh totaly agree.

There are others though for example who are starting to claim the pension like parents of people who have emmigrated and would like to come and retire to one of these countries who may rely on pensions but may not be able to.....which is a shame but then again as you say above if they are aware of it they can't be caught out...but it is sad in that respect.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

What about dressing as BATMAN and climbing Big Ben.....B*****S been done.

My campaign is over....we could always blame Man Utd for it say it was their Idea

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

It has gone to the ECHR now and hopefully they will come up with a decent response. There are many older Brits here and in South Africa, Australia and New Zealand who do not get the pension increase from the date of leaving the UK. And yet those who go to the Caribbean, US and Europe do get the increases. Has never seemed fair and though it might be correct legally, according to legislation, it is not equal human rights. ECHR stopped making it compulsory for women to retire at 60 in the UK so they do come up with some sensible solutions.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

It's not "your" money. It's money that the UK taxpayer may, or may not, pay to pensioners in the future based on the whim of the government at that time. The idea that you have a right to money from the government is part of an unfortunate culture of entitlement in the UK that doesn't transfer well to other countries. You've decided to emigrate and, in considering your destination, the likelihood of receiving pension money is one factor, you can make an informed decision to go to Bosnia or you can choose to go to Canada. If you choose the latter knowing that it means you won't get the money you've no complaint when you don't get it.

Your position is not comporable to people of prior generations who were raised with the expectation that anywhere in the Empire would be equal so far as pensions are concerned. I've some sympathy for people who didn't know that choosing one country over another would matter in this regard though, realistically, the generation who are in their eighties now were just lucky in the pensions they receive; the level of pensions paid in the UK is not sustainable.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

That's how I feel too, especially as I was advised to opt out of SERPS in my early 20's. My hubby and I have put in plans to make sure we are financially independent in our later years - the problems we are having are geting our remaining private pensions out of the UK.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Thanks for the info.

However If I decide to leave my Military pension in the UK then I will still be a UK tax payer!!! So it will still be my money…will it not??

And I have served in Bosnia back in the 90’s already and seen many atrocities so I think I’ll still come to Canada......:blink:

Cheers

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

I'm in a similar position: I opted out once I decided I was probably going to emigrate, plus I've saved the maximum amount that the company would match on pension contributions, so I have a fair chunk of cash sitting in a private pension fund that I really want to transfer to Canada with me. At least that part might be worth something one day...

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Thanks for all the replys so far. Very much appreciated.

As I said at the start it is really to open peoples eyes to this matter some might know the full story some might have no idea....and as various posters have mentioned if you know about it and emmigrate with your eyes open then you have no complaints.

I really can't see this being a major factor in remaining in the UK or moving abroad...not even to Bosnia to keep it...and certainly not the US 0f A.

Cheers Dave

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

USA, Canada, same thing really in many ways. Just easier to get into one than the other.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

By walking across the border from Mexico, you mean :) ?

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Probably fewer patrols along the northern border... if you want to be an illegal.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

But then again at the end of the day it is what the government decides if they wanna pay it they will if it saves them money - which it obviously does - they won't. I just don't believe we should just sit back and take it just because they say so....but that also is very British & they did tell us Iraq had WMD !! I don't just have a attitude of expectation. I have served my country for 22 years all over the world and will recieve a military pension and rightly so I do expect that I am afraid.

Why then is it only certain countries then.....can you answer that as nobody has so far.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

I take it this means trying to escape the US and not the other way round.

:D

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

And your post exactly proves the lack of equality- thank you.:)

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

No one "escapes" the US into Canada, good grief!

Well, ok, Bruce Springsteen, in some song on Nebraska, but he didn't intend to stay.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

so glad you have posted this, as we are n the process of moving to ontario
i honestly thought that our uk pension would freeze and would be-able to claim once we get to that age, well if there was any in the pot!!!!!

its just the standard thing with the uk, come to the uk, we will give you everyting, even if you havent paid into the pot :curse: feel free to take what you want
But if you are hard working etc etc you get nothing when times are bad, one very good reason for leaving i would say
We will leave knowing that we wont get a pension when we retire and if they change the rule at any point then its a bonus, but i will be applying for my tax back etc when we leave, why should i pay someones wages :ohmy: opps sorry social security.

Maybe its about time the uk advised that if you dont put in then you dont get owt out.....................maybe theyd get people to stay :confused:
or then again maybe not!!!!!!!!!!!

just my views

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

I don't normally have much time for the European Court of Human Rights but in this case it seems very much that the human rights of pensioners in Canada, Australia, New Zealand and South Africa are being completely disregarded!

I know a lot of things in life are unfair but to penalise the recipients of a mandatory pension schem just because they chose to live in a certain place seems inexplicable! The fact that the countries involved are all members of the British Commonwealth seems to make it even worse!

It is just a money saving exercise on the part of the British Government!

:frown::frown:

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

I entirely agree with you. It seems to me it is a form of discrimination. Saying go live in the US (or Bosnia, or wherever) instead of Canada is stupid. It shouldn't matter a jot where you live now, what matters is your contributions and everyone being treated fairly and equally. And having backpaid my contributions, I'd like to know more about cousin joe in St. Thomas who only paid 1 pound - another inequity.

As for how long it took for someone to come up with a sarcastic answer, there are people who spend inordinate amounts of time on here every day just waiting to shoot down postings. Evidently they don't have work to do!

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

It is not sarcastic to suggest that, if people knowing choose to go to a place where they will be financially disadvantaged, they have no complaint when they experience that disadvantage.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Of course, the danger is that in the name of equality they could just turn around and say, Right, no inflationary increases for anyone.:devil_smile:

That would be equality, the government would save a ton of money going to all the rats leaving the sinking ship, and who said that inflationary increases in a pension was a human right, or even that a pension is a human right come to think of it.

Given the flagrant disregard for even basic human rights in many parts of the world, I'm sure there is something more important the court could be addressing. Its the Court of Human Rights, not the Court of Expat Entitlements after all.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

"Human Rights" seems to cover everything under the sun these days! You have made some interesting comments!

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

But not necessarily in this thread, right;)

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Agreed.

There is another point to be made here. I will retire in a surprisingly;) few years on a Canadian pension. Our current intention is to relocate to another country at that time (not the UK). The Canadian pension is, in theory, inflation protected, but of course that's protected against inflation in Canada, not where we'll be spending it.

Much more importantly, it will of course be paid in $Cdn. I'll be spending Euros, so will be at the mercy of exchange rate fluctuations.

I know this. I choose to take the risk. Enough said.

Novo.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

But in fairness, many people have no idea about this when they make their move. We certainly didn't, back in '75. It's only when you find out about the inequity that it pi**es you off!

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Exactly, well said and thank you for you comment and support. This was the point in starting the thread to highlight it to people who were not aware.

As I said some people can't decide from one day to the next where they want to live in Canada never mind the future.

Either we can all just go along like a heard of sheep and say well thats it and BAAA nothing can be done about it or it can be kept as an ongoing issue and just maybe sometime something might just get done or maybe not....if you don't try it never will. How many sceptics will then say err no thanks I don't agree with taking the money so I'll just hand it back but thanks anyway......NOT.

Another Q that is still not been answered is:

"Why is it mainly Commonwealth Countries"

No uprating has ever been paid to pensioners living in 48 of 53 Commonwealth countries, representing 98% of all frozen pensioners. The remaining 2% are spread across 100 other non-Commonwealth countries.

Is it because the British Government activley encouraged emmigration years ago ;)

Yet you can have the benefits in the following:

UK (obviously), Barbados, Bermuda, Cyprus, Gibraltar, Jamaica, Malta, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, and a number of small Protectorates.

Err cough cough wink wink ;);) is it because some of them could possibly be tax free havens for the rich....or is that just me.

Another point is - Military and civil service pensions are not frozen

EXAMPLE:


Frozen Country Resident (e.g. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa, Zimbabwe, etc.)

• First pension received in 1974: £10/week.
• 1999 pension payment: £10/week.
• Total pension benefit paid over 25 years: £14,020

Non-Frozen Country Resident (e.g. U.K., U.S. or E.U. member state etc.)

• First pension received 1974: £10/week.
• 1999 pension payment: £66.75/week.
• Total pension benefit paid over 25 years: £53,812*

If your happy with these figures or this issue doesn't affect you then fair enough crack on, have fun and you have nothing to worry about and you don't need this thread anymore...if your not then maybe have a look at the website who is lobbying to see if things can be changed.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Yeh even prisoners in the UK have had their Human Rights abused and won the case in Europe...

"Because they were locked up for far to long in their cells without exercise"

A driver who pleaded his human rights would be infringed and he would lose his job if he lost his driving license...so he was given a £180 fine...he was speeding and killed a 11 year old child.

If this scum can take it all the way then so can decent people who have actualy contributed to UK society and have fair treatment where ever you decide to live

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

Thats good then thats good...each to their own eh.

Therefore if there was a chance you might be able to influence a decision on this by writing to your MP etc etc (or equivalant) you would just sack it and not bother.

Sorry can't understand that you would just be willing to give up so easily.

I understand the situation totaly OK I also will make the move knowing the full implications I also will not be relying on my state pension to give me the life of luxury...it could pay a mortgage though couldn't it....but your honestly saying you can't be assed one way or another and if something could be done about your not interested.

:confused::confused:

MMMMMM strange....maybe when you make the move to Europe you will understand just how expensive this place is from day to day and why the only good thing Tony B liar has done is stay out of the joke of the Euro.

Re: FROZEN Pensions - Action Needed
 

I believe that the right to your earned pension is just as valid a "human right" as any other. To lose part of this entitlement just because you happen to live in a particular country is a violation.

Many of the pensioners affected by this ruling are the British wives of Commonwealth soldiers who fought for Britain in the Second World War - they met their husbands in Britain while their husbands were serving here. They married and settled here. Later in life the couples returned to the husband's home (Commonwealth) country. They later found out that they were severely disadvantaged when claimed their British state pension. Thanks a lot Britain!! Britain has treated the Commonwealth disgracefully!