French Immersion - comments please
 

Hi everyone,

We are in the process of moving to the Enfield/Elmsdale area of Nova Scotia and are looking into which school to send our 5 year old son to. It appears to me from their websites that the school in Elmsdale offers French immersion and the one in Enfield does not. My son is relatively bright and very much a kinestetic learner, at the moment. I would appreciate advice on how anyone has found the french immersion or whether I am thinking too much about this and shouldn't let it form my opinion of which school he goes to. it may be worth mentioning that we would be of little support to him (I fell asleep in my French exam!)

Thanks in advance.

If anyone has any other experience of either of these schools specifically, would love to hear that too.

Thanks again,

Maplease

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Hi there.

Our daughter has been in a French Immersion school since SK. We went to France when she was 7 (after two years of French Immersion) and were absolutely amazed by her French. She was able to get around easily and translate for us (even though OH supposedly speaks French). Same thing every time we go to Quebec.

Interestingly her school always has the highest scores in the city in the provincial ENGLISH test as well. I've come to think that the French Immersion provides sort of a selection process, where kids that can't keep up are transferred to an all English school by their parents, who assume that it's because of the French that their kids are lagging behind.

So far we have not needed to help her with homework. Now in 3rd grade her French is well beyond OH's level, so even if we wanted we couldn't help... What we did thought, was finding a French babysitter (teenager neighbour who goes to French school), in case we ever needed help. There is also a homework club available in town, but we have never used it.

Overall I would definitely suggest to go for the French Immersion. The way I see it, it's an extra skill we are giving our kids, and they don't even notice it. We would never consider anything else for our youngest who begins school next year.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I mostly agree with Jo&Alex. We're in Ontario, so there'll be some differences between here and NS, but I think the basic principles are the same.

FI is not supposed to be an academically selective program. However, as a kindergarten teacher here put it to us, "the natural tendency is for the kids who relish the academic challenge to gravitate towards the FI program, while those for whom it would be too much of a stretch tend to stay in the English track." That is absolutely not to say that there are no smart kids in the English program - or vice versa! But in our experience (eldest is in Grade 4 FI) the program does provide an added dimension to the learning which can help to provoke interest, thought and understanding to both the subjects taught in French and those in English.

IME the teaching staff, at least in my kids' schools, have been very good at picking up the learning traits of the children in their charge. There are resources available to support visual and auditory learners as well as kinaesthetes. For example, the emphasis on presenting project work back to the whole class is great for the latter, as they get to "do" the work twice (once to prepare and once to present) as well as helping the visual guys by preparing great project artboards and the auditory types by listening to what everyone presents.

I should add, though, that I have nothing against which to compare this. My kids started school here, going through the English-track kindergarten (FI isn't offered here until Grade 1) and then entering the Immersion program. Plus, of course, they're my kids, so I'm bound to be biased in their favour ;)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

We're in Grand Lake, about 2 mins down the road from you. Our girls (5&7) are both in french immersion, but their school is in Fall River (I wasnt aware there were any FI in Elmsdale but maybe that's changed)

Both girls settled in to it really well, and picked it up very quickly, despite neither me or my wife being French speakers (I did well at GCSE level, but that was 17 years ago :ohmy:)

Hope this helps, but if you have any questions about the school, or the area in general, I'd be happy to help.

Good luck!

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Thank you for taking the time to respond. Very helpful comments and certainly food for thought. Looks like most people see it as a postive, which is what I was anticipated:

Thanks again.:starsmile:

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Around here FI schools are seen as de facto grammar schools. In the competitive sport of parenting, getting sprog into a French Immersion school is considered a VERY big win.

Given the choice between fighting a pissed off grizzly bear and trying to push into a lineup of parents waiting to register their kid in a French Immersion school it's, "hello furry," every time. (Yes, they do line up. Some will camp out overnight on the street to make sure they are first.)

I am not qualified to say if it will benefit any particular child. I guess that if a child has the aptitude they will benefit. I also guess that a child’s actual aptitude and their parents’ assessment of that aptitude are not always consistent.

If you child has the ability to benefit then that is good. The thought of having to consort with those parents for the next eight or so years is less so.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I'm very much in the other camp on this one. Just wanted to give you another perspective. :)

Being honest I thought it would be too much for my child to emigrate, leave his friends, have to start in a new school and take on that amount of French. In his case I was right. It's been hard enough on him going into such a different system to England. He was in a little village school and now he's in one of 400+ pupils.

By the time we left he was pretty well established in England and he really and I mean really missed his friends at the beginning. It has taken him a lot longer to settle here than we anticipated and it's only in the last month that he has found a really nice bunch of boys who are similar to him in terms of temperament. I think if we had put him into a school where they didn't use English all the time it would have made it a lot lot harder. He is learning Italian at school and he loves that but it's only one class out of many.

I am not saying that FI is not a great thing - maybe if he had been born here and was settled we would have considered it but for us it just wasn't the right time.

Hope that helps a little. :)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I think it very much depends on the age of the child. For a child at kindergarten or Grade 1 age then I can see definite advantages for a bright child. However an older child that may already be struggling to fit in I think would find it much harder if they had to also catch up with another language that the rest of the class are already familiar with. We were advised to steer well clear, unless we were fluent in french ourselves (not) or prepared to spend twice as long helping our kids with their homework, but one of ours was Grade 4. My younger one (who was 5 when we came) would probably have enjoyed it.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Geordie Lass raises a really good point. I think we would have considered very carefully the benefits of putting an "already-schooled" child into French Immersion, against the challenges and risks that they would have difficulty joining in the conversations in class with kids who are already familiar with receiving instruction in French.

For the OP, with a 5-year-old, I don't think this is a significant issue. I don't know how many, if any, kindergarten years are involved in the FI program in the school district they're moving to. If the child is 5 now, presumably he'll be in a senior-kindergarten class this year and moving into Grade 1 next September. I wouldn't have thought there'd be that much difficulty fitting in to an FI program at such an early stage.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I appreciate all the responses. Thanks.

Geordie Lass, was wondering how old your son was when you moved? Nice to hear that he now has some nice friends and is settled:)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

He was 6. He's 7 now. I can honestly say that was something we didn't plan for (as in massively underestimated) how homesick he would get and how much he would miss his old school and his old friends. He's fine now and he's happy again which is great but like I said it took a lot longer than we thought it would and if you are anything like me - seeing your child unhappy makes you unhappy :)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Do the FI schools do every class in French or just a majority of classes?

I wonder about the age comments, there are plenty of expats who ship over to France or Italy and stick older kids into the local school, and the kids adapt (obviously not as seamlessly as a five year old, but they do).

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

The majority, but it depends.

Here's the situation I've seen in BC (note this is specific to the schools in Richmond where I volunteered at the time):

Elementary school (K-7) French Immersion is taught almost entirely in French, as children typically only have one teacher for their entire class with exception to phys ed and music. That one teacher will only speak to them in French throughout the duration of the day.

Once into secondary school (8-12), students take 8 classes through the year and different subjects are taught by different teachers. From grade 8-10, science, social studies, and French (obviously) are taught in French. Maths, English, phys ed, electives (fine art/applied skills, etc.)

By grades 11 and 12, the general subjects get more specialized (social studies are now broken down into their proper classes like history, geography, political science, etc.), science is broken into biology, chemistry, physics, computer science, etc. All these classes are taught in English now. The only classes taught in French is the French class.

Also worth noting (again, here in BC) is that French Immersion can only be started when the kids start Kindergarten (age 5/6) "Early French Immersion" or Grade 6 (age 10/11) "Late French Immersion".

Note that children who begin French Immersion at a young age will absorb the language by osmosis as they do with anything they're given at that age. Children who begin French Immersion in Grade 6 learn it by rigorous grammar lessons - they learn the grammatical structure behind the language, etc. They've also had 6 years of practicing English - spelling, grammar, writing, etc.

When the late French Immersion students and the early French Immersion students meet up in grade 8 to start secondary school, often the early French Immersion students have the better French speaking skills, but they're behind the late French Immersion students in writing/grammar and spelling in both English and French. However, by the end of grade 12, both late and early French Immersion graduate the same level.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Once again, thanks. I appreciate getting all perspectives. I think I have a some pondering to do:)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

All the classes are taught in French, but there's lots of repetition and sight words up on the board. Hardly any of the kids speak French as a their first language, and the teachers know this. Of course, English words are still used, but they are slowly phased out in Grade 1, so that eventually, the kids speak only French in the classroom. My eldest is in her second year of FI now, and they're only now starting to phase out English words.

Another thing to consider is that you cannot decide to put your child in FI *next* year- it's almost now or never. They do offer "late French immersion" but I dont think that's available until Grade 6.... at which time, it's much more difficult (but obv not impossible) to pick up.
You can however decide to take your child out of FI if it's not working.

Both my girls have really prospered in FI. For my eldest in particular, her reading (in both languages) is way above her age level, and I'm glad we made the decision to put them in.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

My children went to French language schools (in Toronto) and, as a result, are bilingual. This has been a huge advantage to them, they had a broader choice of universities, a wider choice of places to live and, in the case of the one who stayed in Canada, an important advantage at university (she was on two debating teams, one in each language) and in the workplace (she had the option of working for the Feds, something her fellow students did not).

I can't see why you wouldn't try FI, as jericho says, you always have the option to stop it but only one chance to start.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

A good point. Thanks for your comments.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

We would have never thought of French Immersion except that our catchment school was a French Immersion school. To do English, they would have had to go an extra mile down the road. So with the though dbd33 had about you have one change to start but always the option to stop, we went for it (there is late French Immersion here starting at grade 7 but it takes a couple of years to catch up to those who started in Kindergarten).

It has been a good experience. Most people over here (me included) know 1 language. Which is kind of embarrassing really. I figure even if they never use French in a day to day setting, it really can't hurt. I believe education is good even if its just for the sake of education so every little bit adds up to what you become. of course it also makes sense if your smart about your education so you can find a job one day. Again, knowing another language can only be a benefit.

It hasn't appeared to be any more or less academic than just doing it in English. In elementary school, all classes are in French except English language arts of course. In Jr. high, some classes are in English, some in French (I don't remember which but it probably depends on the school board or province). And in Highschool, more classes are in English than in French.

And in Canada, if you are going to pick up a second language, French makes sense.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Interessant. Didn't know that there were two entry points.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I think this is an important point, one of my daughters went on to learn Spanish, another now uses Italian every day. They both say that knowing two languages from the beginning was an asset in learning a third. I suppose this is only true if the third language is a European one but, still, it's not like putting French in your head causes something else to be knocked out; you don't learn French and stop being able to bake. For a child, all learning is good learning.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I agree completely about the advantages of having a second language, but from personal experience, having a second one, acquired in adulthood, does block out the acquisition of a third.

You spend a lot of time learning to be able to think in the second one, and then, IME, a longer time trying to stop.

You've no idea how silly it can be to try to speak French using German sentence structures.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Hi Maplease

We moved to NL when my son was 7 and had just completed Year 2 in the UK -- we had to chose whether he would start school here in Grade 3 (where he was academically) or Grade 2 (where he would be the same age as his peers who started school age 5, not 4).

We chose to have him start in Grade 2 and it worked very well for him, it took a few weeks to get settled but he did great. With regards to French Immersion, we were told almost exactly what Lychee noted so we enrolled him in English with a view to starting Late Immersion at Junior High.

Fast forward 5 years (that flew by!) and son is now in Grade 7, he entered LI in Sept and is doing really well. I was amazed when his first few test papers started coming home and I saw what he had completed in Science and Social Studies etc all written in French. He loves the program and it seems to suit him, and as an added bonus, I can't help with homework ;)

TG




Note that children who begin French Immersion at a young age will absorb the language by osmosis as they do with anything they're given at that age. Children who begin French Immersion in Grade 6 learn it by rigorous grammar lessons - they learn the grammatical structure behind the language, etc. They've also had 6 years of practicing English - spelling, grammar, writing, etc.

When the late French Immersion students and the early French Immersion students meet up in grade 8 to start secondary school, often the early French Immersion students have the better French speaking skills, but they're behind the late French Immersion students in writing/grammar and spelling in both English and French. However, by the end of grade 12, both late and early French Immersion graduate the same level.[/quote]

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Thanks for all your advice

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

My elder daughter is currently in FI and its been very positive for her. Based on her experience it seems a lot easier to start it in JK or G1 and gradually become immersed than it is to be dropped in the deep end at G4 or 5. She started in JK but we later switched boards to one thats started in G4. As a consequence of the switch her younger sister did a year of FI (JK), but is now back in an english stream (bored) until G4 comes around, at which point we worry how easily she will take to french without the slowly slowly introduction that her sister benefited from.

It is very gratifying though to have a 10 year old who can effortlessly and confidently switch between English and French and who is happy and challenged at school. She says mostly she thinks in English, but is now finding that she slips into thinking in french more often as the work becomes more challenging. As a parent though FI is not without its challenges when neither parent is good at French (although I did just scrape a pass in my French O level back in the 80s)

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

+ 1

In our situation both children (now 16 and 12) have been in french immersion since SK (age 5). They are both bi-lingual AFAIK, and will continue in FI until the end of high school. We have been in france and quebec and they can understand all of the conversations and signage. The 16 year old has had tutoring and baby sitting jobs due to her french language skills.

Keep in mind that most FI programmes in Canada teach french from France rather than from Quebec.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I would certainly hope so.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

the only issues I have heard of are:

-kids that struggle academically can feel like failures when switched to english from french and that the FI stream is not good for kids with learning issues

-one of my friends is tutoring an ex-FI student, now adult, whose english-essay writing skills are not up to scratch

-I just wonder about science/maths careers. It would be interesting to know what the effect of FI is in terms of career choice etc. I met an ex-FI student (now adult) who felt FI screwed this (science) up as terms were learnt in french rather than english which is, after all, the language most research is written in.

Can't really see an advantage in BC - I know quite a few ex-FI students who never use their french.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

My daughter in Canada is in Vancouver. Advantages of being bilngual to her in BC that I know of include:

- academic advancement, UBC participates in competitions with other universities in English and in French, as a bilingual student she was able to participate in two sets of teams. All exposure to competition on behalf of your school raises your profile within the school and possibly beyond the school.

- ease of finding part time work, she turned up at the French Canadian cultural centre, opened her gob and was employed as the receptionist. This, it seems, is an ideal job for a student with a heavy course load as there is little or no French Canadian culture in BC.

- ease of finding permanent work, she's employed by the local equivalent of the Department of Public Prosecutions. It's a Federal agency and so acts affirmitively to advantage francophones.

In short, French has been an advantage in Vancouver in a way it would not be in Montreal where bilingual Canadians are a sou a dozen or some such chose.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

On a purely practical note, which ever way around you pick up a cereal box you're always going to be able to read the ingredients. That right there is literally going to save you minuets over the course of a lifetime.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I would recommend Mandarin or Spanish the way the world is going.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Of the many many people I know who live and work here and got jobs, not one has needed fluent french. In my company Spanish would be an asset. Mandarin goes without saying. The fact that the main advantage according to most of the people on this thread is working for the feds, sucking off the taxpayer, speaks volumes imo. French is not that useful, unless you're a bureaucrat.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

I'm with you up to here. I know French is not very useful for business in Vancouver. It's not in Toronto either.

Here we very much part company. Firstly, one should not learn things, or have one's children learn things just because they are "useful". There's value in book larning for book larning's sake.

Secondly, learning a second language is a gateway to a third or fourth. French is the one offered by immersion schools, if there's a choice of Spanish immersion, Korean immersion and the like, then selecting a school becomes complicated but those are not options. The options are French or not-French.

Thirdly, Canada has chosen to offer affirmitive action to francophones (and in Ontario, Catholics), unlike the US where one would have to become black to benefit, in Canada one can make one's children eligible for affirmitive action simply by changing their language or religion, it seems silly not to take advantage.

There is use for French in Canadian business, francophones buy things, francophones are in power in some companies, some documents have to be offered in both languages, French people visit Canada and a child born in Canada might, one visit Europe. That, however, is not the compelling reason for immigrants to ensure that their children speak French, immigrant parents should do that as a gesture of embrace for the culture of the country to which they have moved, they should do it to give their children a chance to be Canadians, not just Americans with metric speedometers.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

As a civil servant, and a taxpayer, I have to disagree. Us civil servants pay taxes the same as any other employee in Canada and my colleagues may even assist to provide the services that allow Expats to enter our great country.

I'm going to guess you were joking and I won't take that personally, I am very proud of what I do and where I work.

Personally, for me all learning is good learning and if I can provide my son the opportunity to challenge himself and take on an additional skill then I will. The fact is Canada is a bilingual country and I am proud that my child will be bilingual.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Completely agree with these comments.

But what is the "affirmative action" to which you refer (here and in another post)? Is this Federal hiring preferences or something?

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

Me too - growing up in the UK I studied French all through senior school and into university, learned German for 7 years at senior school and opted to study Spanish at university.

Though I do not use my languages in my job, I am grateful for the places they have taken me.

I am hugely jealous that my future children will have the opportunity growing up in Canada to study in French immersion school - being bilingual (almost effortlessly) instead of having to learn from scratch as a teenager/adult is such a bonus.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

How many years will it be until Mandarin (or Cantonese?) becomes Canada's third official language? Or will its prevalence dismantle the whole "official language" policy. It does seem that it will be difficult to argue that French has official status in places like BC and Ontario when in fact Chinese speakers far out number French speakers, and will grow as time goes on.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

^^^ This is why we have gone down the FI path., and piano lessons too I guess.

If its a benefit with employment options (federal or service industry) later on that is a happy bonus

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

When last I looked, a decade or more ago, French was the 9th most spoken language in Toronto. It's not official because it's widely used, it's official because, as a rule, Canada is governed by lawyers from Quebec. I don't foresee that changing.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

You cant dismantle the official language policy, its too enshrined in the constitution for it to happen. Same as public and catholic education in Ontario, the history of the country/ province makes it untouchable.

Re: French Immersion - comments please
 

There does seem to be more than a little resentment towards those with government jobs.:confused:

It used to be the norm that secure jobs with good conditions and benefits packages were commonly available. Now its increasingly rare outside of government and that seems to breed resentment. Its sad. People should aspire to that level, not try and drag others down like crabs in a bucket.