Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

We successfully got our PR visa's authorised on Thursday by visiting the Huntingdon/Sumas border crossing in the Fraser Valley, near Vancouver.

You should be aware, though, that US Customs no longer permits flag-polling. They're concerned that admitting individuals into the States, albeit only for the purpose of turning straight back into Canada leaves them open to the possibility that Canada has the right to refuse entry, and then the US is left with individuals that they possibly don't want either.

The process now involves having to be formally interviewed, fingerprinted (14 prints - palms and all), photographed and then documentation being produced that indicates you were officially refused entry to the US. Canada then has no choice but to allow you back in.

This took us 2hrs with US immigration - one guy working through the paperwork solidly on his own. If you're traveling with a family, expect it to take longer. In one respect it means that you don't officially leave Canada, so departure and landing never really occurs in order to meet immigration requirements for the PR visa, but the Canadian immigration officer we dealt with just said it was US immigration paranoia, and they were unconcerned about the legal technicalities. Including the line up to leave Canada, then re-enter, plus 30mins of paperwork with Canadian immigration, in total it took us over 4hrs to get everything dealt with. That was late morning on a mid-week day.

I asked the US immigration guy if it would have been simpler for us just to have paid the $6 each for a visa to visit the US and then dealt with the PR landing on our way back into Canada. He was adamant that we'd have been committing an offense by not declaring our real intentions for visiting the US, and that he'd rather have the correct paperwork drawn up than risk us being arrested. There was a very marked contrast in attitude between the US and Canadian immigration personnel - cold, impersonal and intimidating vs welcoming and friendly.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Yep, according to most US Immigration officials you are a terrorist/deadbeat/freeloader until proven otherwise. I haven't experienced a single one who was anything approaching civil. Not a good advert for the US really.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Just say you're going for a day out visiting some place. They're not going to know what you do with Canadian Immigration on the way back.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

If you've now been officially refused entry to the US, doesn't this mean that next time you try to visit the US you'll find yourself in a rather fetching orange boiler suit?

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Yep, that's about the only way to avoid all the paperwork. The only risk is a search of your vehicle (which we had), and they find the paperwork you're going to use later on - then they'll apparently get quite upset that you hid the truth from them.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Blimey. That's unlucky. We've never had that and I look like a terrorist.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

They said (several times) that there was no implication for future visits to the US. In fairness to the US immigration staff they were happy for us to see all the data entered and tried to explain why it was necessary. Why they needed details of our employment, where we'd purchased our vehicle from etc etc seemed a little excessive, especially as we weren't officially ever let into the US.

Not sure orange is this year's colour, is it :huh: I'd be devastated to commit a fashion faux-pas :(

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

They looked through the trunk of every single vehicle in the line up (approx 20 cars in front of us). Several had their interiors checked too.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

How disappointing. But thanks for the heads up, R I C H. I have added a notation to the Wiki article called Trip around the flagpole.
x

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

At Port Huron I pulled the Mustang to the booth, a daughter and I were in the car, the top was down, there was a cooler on the back seat.

"Where you going?"

"Vegas"

"Got any apples in the cooler?"

"Nope."

"Have a blast."

He didn't even ask to see our passports. OK, that was five years ago but last year I crossed there very many times and often just offered my passport without the officer taking it and opening it. Overall I'd say there's the same chance of getting a friendly or obnoxious officer at either side.

Still I wish they'd get rid of the border, it's a silly affectation for Canada to pretend independence.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

This is really no different to our experience back in 2004. Because my daughters arrived in Canada before I did they weren't able to do their immigration landing ahead of me as I was the principle applicant. I did my landing at Ottawa Airport and a few days later we took them down to the bridge crossing at Cornwall and spoke to the officers at the Canadian border crossing to confirm that my daughters could still land by crossing into the US and then come back. They told us it was fine but part of the procedure was that they would be refused entry into the States and that we would need to bring that paperwork back with us to prove that they had left even though the US wouldn't technically let them in. All a bit bizarre really.

Anyway occasional subsequent trips into the US meant admitting to having previously been refused entry but after a bit of paperwork, a fingerprint and six dollars each the 90 day visa's were still issued.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

When my WP was issued (at the same border crossing in Nov '05), US immigration just asked my to swing the vehicle round and join the line to re-enter Canada. That's the procedure they apparently will no longer allow.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

I never understood why visa waiver nationals didn't go shopping in the US/have lunch and come back to land... I'm sorry this happened though Rich.

Only once had our car checked by the US people and it was just a cursory check whilst we were getting Mr B's papers done, not the full take-apart I've seen happen to others in the "inspection bays" or whatever they call them.

Today we were an hour at US border services on the way out to get Mr B his latest I94W, they were pathetically slow. And then we were about 2hrs in Canada customs on the way back because of an unaccounted for patio umbrella in our boot! That was a full car search, handbag emptied and rooted through, wallet, etc. It sounds ridiculous but could have been rather serious :unsure: On this occasion the Canadians were friendlier but it's the other way round 9 times out of 10.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

I agree, Canadian immigration are always cold, impersonal and intimidating when we deal with them as well.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

That would be the ideal thing to do, but when you live a good distance from the border, and even further for anywhere worth visiting regarding shopping on the States side, there's just not enough time in the day to do both.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Does anyone live just in Canada? Most people I know go to the US a few times a year, to shop, to watch sports, to go to the theatre, to enjoy the weather. Canada is in large part a suburb of America. Why not just wait until the next trip to the US rather than making a specific one?

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

I've not left Canada in nearly 3yrs, and have no plans or need to visit the US in the near future. A specific trip to fit in with work commitments was the only way to sort things out.

Travelling 5hrs+ to the nearest city (Seattle) that would offer better shopping than I can find in BC just doesn't appeal. And the weather's hardly better than BC's interior.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

I suggest that that's unusual. In general people in Canada will go to Florida or Arizona or Texas at least once a year so as to see the sea or winter sun or just to be in a fun kind of place.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Isn't it more about collecting tax revenue than any notion of maintaining independence?

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Injecting a few facts here:

1. It was the Canadian customs authorities that started insisting on a refusal letter or U.S. admission before allowing "flagpoling", back in 2004.

2. There is absolutely no change in U.S. immigration regulations. The policy, as enforced here, is that someone arriving from Canada must formally be admitted or refused entry.

3. It is absolutely legal to enter the United States and re-enter Canada in some other capacity (if you are admissible to the United States as a visitor). You can do so either by air or by land. But you do need to have some kind of plan in mind, ie, something better than just turning around at the border. Border guards hate it otherwise. So do your homework and work out where you would like to visit in the U.S. - town, national park, shopping mall etc - get admitted, and go there, then return to Canada.

4. Getting a refusal onto your record is not a good idea. Regardless of what anyone says today, it may haunt you in future.

5. You are not going to get stuck in "limbo" if there is some problem with your landing in Canada. Two reasons: a. you could still be admitted in your existing status or as a visitor; or b. at the end of the day, your country of citizenship would accept you back.

6. It is possible, although unlikely, that if you have a bona-fide reason to visit the United States, a border guard may find out that you intend to land as residents in Canada on your return. That should not be a problem so long as you have another reason to visit the United States. People do the "Buffalo shuffle" all the time.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

very strange indeed,

I've been to the International peace gardens in North Dakota - but the restaurant was closed. So we turned around to go back to Winnipeg but without going thru any US border controls we had left Canada. Now trying to get back in was interesting and I don't think it would have been so simple with out the Canadian born friend in the car.

When did you leave Canada? - err 5 minutes ago.
Canadian - err not me or the wife - but she is.
Why did you leave Canada - for a sandwich

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

we had the opposite experience a couple of months ago.

told the US customs we wanted to do the flag pole. he said, cant be done, are you sure you arnt visiting the next town?? wink wink, nudge nudge... "oh yes of course we are" says us.
"no probs" says he, quick $6 and a visa later we are in.. no need to go through the whole refused entry thing..

very nice guy, couldnt be more helpful.. the canadian CBSA guy was a tosser tho.. initially he wouldnt do the PR as he said it wasnt up to him to do immigration matters (WTF he is a border guard!!!) despite the PR instructions saying ANY border crossing will do it... i had to bite my tounge to not tell him what a sad little jobsworth he was..

luckily his more helpful co worker took over and all was sorted...

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

In my humble experience (yes I can be humble) the US border guards are more obnoxious than the Canadian ones (who often say"Welcome home").

We were stopped on our drive back to Boston after completing our reccie trip into NB (it was cheaper to fly to boston rent a car and drive up, than fly to halifax rent a car and drive around).

Anyway I was grilled by the border guard/immigration dude for about 10 minutes on that specific question. Then when my story didnt change we asked if we had any citrus fruits in the car. I replied no. He asked did we have any food. I replied no, he pointed to a dunking donuts bag the girls were clutching on the backseat and said "So what is that", I looked around and said (with a straight face) "Oh dunking donuts ...well they really cant be classed as food can they". He turned human and laughed :eek: then waved me on. :thumbup:

That was my best experience at the US border, every other time I have felt like a terror threat or a drug runner, I have been singled out several times during flights for special security checks, bags searched, laptop tested wiped sniffed etc, again my request that they clean the whole screen while at it meant with disapproval of such levity during an obviously serious matter. I guess it must be the Scarlet Suit and my indestructible nature they worry about!

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Fascinating read... thanks everyone.

I am in Canada, and ready to land as a PR. I think I will go through with my plan of taking a weekend mini-break somewhere in the States for beach, city, sightseeing whatever and then fly back to Pearson where I will suddenly decide I want to land as a PR ;) Based on this thread it sounds like spending a day or two in the States with some purpose (tourism, sightseeing, shopping, whatever) is the best option.

Enter the US through visa waiver, and then arrive back to Canadian immigration and then make your intent to land as a PR known.

Unless I've read this all wrong?!

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Yes. You'll be fine. Even if they do search you, find your immigration papers and ask about that, you can always pass it off as a minor piece of adminstration that you thought you'd get out of the way on your way back.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

You are such a coool dude Bazzz I think you should take up the call to Arms and Join up ;)

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

If I was a little bit gayer, the homoerotic side of it might appeal to me, but as it is, I think I'll have to decline this time. Although I do hear that the booze is criminally cheap.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Lol. Very good bazzz.

If you're landing on a flight from Toronto in Memphis, Nashville, Orlando (or some other vaguely interesting US city) and say your visiting the sights for the weekend I doubt it would become an issue.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

If you fly from Toronto, or the other major Canadian airports, you will do U.S. customs and immigration before departure.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Ah right, understood JAJ.

I suppose it's just a weekend mini-break, purpose: tourism. Visit the amazing giant roadside something or other, hand in I94W to the airline when checking in for return and then make intention known to land as PR when arriving at Canadian Customs and Immigration.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Yeah, much easier if you ever get refused entry as you can just turn rund and go home. However, if you leave Vancouver on a late flight, US immigration is closed (they go home apparently, rather than live locally) and you have to clear on arrival in the US.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but I thought that if you were ever refused entry (other than for a non VWP approved style passport issue) you ceased to be eligible for VWP? If it is an unofficial refusal I can see that it won't matter, but in R I C H's case it sounded like the full works. Also (just trying to finalise some travel arrangements here :o ) if I fly into the US from Canada, I must have an onward ticket booked out of the US but if I enter by land crossing from Canada this is not the case (under VWP for British passport holder). Is this correct? I want to fly into US (commercial airline) and drive back with a friend so I would have to book a refundable return portion ticket to cover a technicality?

I can't wait to become Canadian!

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Unless the flight originates outside North America (e.g. when we went to Vegas on a flight that had started in Manila).

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Just thought I'd share with y'all what happened to me recently at the southern land border (Mexico/USA) when I tried to cross under Visa Waiver rules as a Brit.

http://eddiesayshola.blogspot.com/20...icated-to.html

Cheers

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

if you were ever refused entry (other than for a non VWP approved style passport issue) you ceased to be eligible for VWP? If it is an unofficial refusal I can see that it won't matter, but in R I C H's case it sounded like the full works.


any experiences on the trip after such refused entry ? is the VWP ok ? and now the new ESTA system prevent the application in case of previous refused entry ??

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

Ask on a U.S. section of the forum to be sure, but as far as I am aware, a refusal of admission does not in itself impose a bar on future VWP use. However, unless the reason for refusal is addressed it will likely cause problems again => best to apply for a U.S. visa in that case.

You can drive into the U.S. and fly back to Canada under the visa waiver, but you cannot do the reverse. You would need a U.S. tourist visa or a Canadian passport.

However, Canadian citizens can be (and sometimes are) refused admission to the United States, like anyone else. The U.S. immigration officer must still be satisfied that you are a genuine visitor.

On flag-poling, there is a wiki article:
http://britishexpats.com/wiki/Trip_a...lagpole-Canada

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

wonder is there any difference between above mentioned completed process and a simple paper without any fingerprint, photo steps

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

I'm no expert and had to rely on the websites which may very well be incorrect or out of date:
When does a national of a VWP country need to apply for a visa instead of using the VWP?
Nationals of VWP countries must meet the conditions noted in the section above in order to seek admission to the United States under the Visa Waiver Program. Travelers who do not meet these conditions must apply for a visa. In particular, a visa must be requested if the traveler:
Wants to remain in the United States for longer than 90 days, or envisions that they may wish to change their status (from tourism to student, etc.) once in the United States;
Wants to work or study in the United States, wants to travel as a working foreign media representative, wants to come to the United States for other purposes not allowed on a visitor visa, or intends to immigrate to the United States;
Does not have a machine-readable passport (MRP) issued or renewed/extended before 10/26/05, or is unable to meet other requirements outlined above for passports issued on or after October 26, 2005 or October 26, 2006.
Intends to travel by private aircraft or other non-signatory air or sea carriers to the United States;
Has been refused a visa or admission to the United States before, or did not comply with the conditions of previous VWP admissions (90 days or less stay for tourism or business, etc.); or
Has a criminal record or other condition making them ineligible for a visa (see Classes of Aliens Ineligible for Visas).
from http://travel.state.gov/visa/temp/wi...l#travelertype

Thanks. In the end I booked a refundable ticket back out of the US, drove out with the friend and cancelled the ticket when I got back to Canada. I think I have posted on this recently but the (quite possibly out of date) information on the web suggests that VWP citizens resident in Canada may not need to go to these lengths (got it - post 23 on this thread) but I have had difficulty with a US immigration officer previously (I had the correct paperwork, the immigration officer was in error, I had to spend many hours waiting around for it all to be sorted out).

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

by the way, nothing(handwriting nor stamp) shown on my passport after obtaining the paper from US border office .

wonder how about the passport of Rich or others who had fingerprint/photo process ?

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

No idea. US immigration officers have power beyond belief and two different officers can respond in two very different ways to the same data before them.

Based on what he has posted throughout BE before, I think that JAJ is far more knowledgable about immigration issues than I am but rather than relying on an anonymous discussion forum, if you're worried give the US government helpline a call. Be warned though, it's a premium rate number and they seem to basically read out whatever is on their website.

Re: Flag-polling - no longer permitted.
 

In that case, why call up?