The Fifth Estate
 

Don't know if anyone else saw the CBC program the Fifth Estate Last night - it was all about Patriot missiles in the first Gulf war and how totally useless they were. It was obviously not propaganda. The Israelis knew that they were failing and went to Washington but nobody would do anything. After the war they had various people - can't remember the names - research things and they found that the patriots intercepted between 0 and 4 of the scuds sent by the Iraqis.

They watched the TV reports. The media saw an explosion and reported that as a "kill" whereas in fact, what was happening was the Patriots were breaking up and exploding - that is what the explosions were.

Because the US believed the Patriots were knocking down the Scuds - that is why all those Americans were killed in their barracks in Saudi Arabia - they didn't bother to take shelter becuase they believed the Patriots would knock down the Scud.

They had the US. Senator (I think that is what he was) on that headed up the committee and he researched the Patriots and he said "they did not work". But when Bob McKeown asked him what Americans believed today - he said that they believed what they were told by the media - that the Patriots worked. He said it doesnt matter how many times we tell them to the contrary - they don't believe it.

"The Can't-Miss Missile"
It was touted as the best defence money could buy against Iraqi Scuds and other deadly missiles. But as the fifth estate's Bob McKeown demonstrated on our February 5 programme, the Patriot missile turned out to be a bust in 1991. And now in the early days of the war in Iraq, it seems as if the Patriot has revealed one more fatal shortcoming. It is having trouble telling the difference between friend and foe. A whole new take on a cautionary tale about military hardware and military obfuscation"

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/

Re: The Fifth Estate
 

Expect to see a number of posts labelling this factual information as

1)a lie

2) blatant ant-Americanism

3) Commie propaganda

4) Unpatriotic

5) Anti-military

6) Cowardly

The gung-ho right wing bunch are not particularly original but very predictable.

I personally find the CBC to be more reliable than most of the media. Also, I find it interesting that you would label this as anti-American and anti-patriotic when all the people interviewed on the show, except the Israeli, were Americans.

Far from being anti-American - it was my impression that they were anti the people who made the patriot missile and those who said it worked. It sounded to me like they felt that they (the Americans) were made vulnerable by having a missile that didn't work and that the Americans in the barracks in Saudi Arabia who were killed needed better protection than to rely on a missile to protect them - when it did not.

You have a strange idea of patriotism - all these Americans on the show wanted was to be better protected than to rely on a weapon that was not reliable.

You obviously misunderstood my tongue-in-cheek post. I didn't label it as Anti-American and anti-patriotic. I merely suggested that some others might since any information that doesn't conform to the propaganda is classified as such.

Oh!! I guess like my neighbour says - I should have stood up - that went right over my head!!

I guess its a bit early in the morning for my brain to be working properly.

Re: The Fifth Estate
 

You're begining to sound desperate.

Re: The Fifth Estate
 

No - just beat you to the punch!

Haven't seen the show, so can't comment on that, but don't you find it a bit ironic that that when the media posts information you agree with you consider it the truth, whereas if you don't agree with it its dismissed as 'propaganda'. The (some-what annoying) implication is that those of us who support this war (myself included) are spoon fed our propaganda from a compliant press, which we take in without any critical faculty of our own, whereas some-one like yourself has the 'courage' to think outside this goverment 'propaganda'. I'm sure it makes you feel morally better for you to believe that...
...and talking of feeling morally better...I don't live in Canada anymore, but I still check out websites from the 'globe aand mail' and CBC etc...just because you agree with what they are saying, that doesn't make the view point they are pushing 'propaganda'? (does that last bit make sense?)

Worth repeating I feel considering that it's somewhat apropos (as Mum was so fond of saying) to this discussion:

"There is a type of intellectual gymnastics the 'left' must go through whereby it is impossible for them to admit that the 'right' does actually subscribe to an intellectually coherent set of ideals. Hence there is the underlying accusation that 'right wing / conservative' beliefs stem from a sort of backwardness of thought. In addition, there is also a corresponding, sanctimonious assumption that 'liberal / left wing' beliefs indicate a higher level of thought."

And finally from from Newsweek: "In their world, it's almost axiomatic that 'Conservative' means the same thing as 'closed minded' and that the more 'liberal' you are, the smarter you must be."

We must be kind to our counterparts as this is a very difficult time for them. Heaven forbid that the Yanks and Brits should actually win. Expect the rhetoric from the left to increase exponentially should that be the case.

Thanks for fulfilling my prediction that this discussion would eventually get around to labelling people.

Have you yet got round to considering that while the Yanks and the Brits will no doubt win the war against a pitifully weak opponent they may lose the peace against an increasingly hostile world and rejuvinated militant Islam?

Re: The Fifth Estate
 

Oh dear, I seem to have misplaced the crib sheet from the goverment, that tells what to think and write. Without it I'm powerless to think on my own...:eek:
Actually I'm still trying to get my head around something you wrote in a previous post, when you said 'the iraqi people seem to have no problem with Saddams morals' Still trying to figure that one out....
As it happens (and this is true) I work with/know a family of kurds...they're from Iran but have family in Iraq..came to Canada via Turkey in the late eighties....they are more than happy that Saddam is on his way out...(distant) members of their family were amongst the thousands killed when Saddam used chemical weapons on the Iraqi people. They want the job done and Saddam gone ...they would prefer that they (the Kurds) were doing it themselves, but thats unrealistic due to his military hold on the country, so they're glad UK/USA is getting rid of saddam for them.

What!!! And your posts haven't !!!:eek: :eek: :eek:

Re: The Fifth Estate
 

Do your Kurdish friends know that not only did the USA provide Hussein with the chemical weapons they also knew he was using them against the Kurds?

It was classic "Nudge, Nudge, Wink, Wink" American hypocritical foreign policy. But there's more. The USA encouraged the Kurds to rebel against Hussein during the first Gulf War and then didn't lift a finger when Hussein brutally put down the uprising. So the USA didn't have any problem with Hussein's morals either at one time.


So maybe this war is partly to repair the damage caused by the USA in the past. Too bad your friends can't sue the US government.

Actually I'm just doing my patriotic duty according to

http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/forum/forumnew50.php


Quote
"Reichmarshall Hermann Goering of the Third Reich once said: “It is always a simple matter to drag the people along� to do “the bidding of the leaders,� regardless of the form of government. “All you have to do,� he said, “is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.�

President Bush has accused the terrorists of attacking our democratic way of life. The foundation of a democracy is the right and duty to dissent against misconduct by governmental leaders. Dissent, also unpopular in the early stages of the Vietnam War, was later voiced by a majority of Americans.

We are responsible for the actions of our government. When it fails to act in a moral and lawful manner, we must speak out and educate our fellow citizens about the abuses. If we fail to dissent for fear of governmental retaliation, we will have confirmed the truth of Hermann Goering’s frightening prediction. "

It seems to me that when it comes to these kinds of subject - everybody thinks their particular opinion is the correct one.

Unfortunately, when we are dealing with governments (and not only governments), quite frequently the truth doesn't come out for years and years until it doesn't really matter any more.

Its like the joke my Dad used to tell:

"A man and his son are watching a party political broadcast on TV. The son says "Dad, you always tell me the politicians lie. How can you tell which one is lying?" The Dad says "Well son, its the one whose lips are moving."