Face to Face V E-mail
 

We are moving to Kamloops next year and I have sent out a few E-mails to companies about work but have not had any replies, well why would they we are not out till 2011.

My question is what is the best way to put us on the map in order to secure work as quickly as possible.
Rich reccomeneded Venture which is a Kamloops website but I have E-mailed them and got no reply.

We want people to know we are ready for work as soon as we get out there, what have other people done that has been successful? I was thinking of sending out our CVs then phoning to check they had them, then doingt he same in a few months or will this get on perspective employers nerves. :unsure:
Casey and Mat.

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That's pretty much it, but make sure it's a Canadianized resume and wait until nearer the time.

It would appear that you haven't read the Job Hunting section of the Wiki (on blue bar at the top of the page) which will tell you exactly how to go about it (and why to never bother just sending emails!) so grab a cuppa and have a read of that.

:)

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I have already had my CV converted into a Canadian friendly way, and I have just scan read the Wiki which is helpful, may sit down tonight and make some calls.

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If I'm looking at a move to Toronto at the end of January then is it a good idea to email employers before Christmas or start a couple of weeks before landing?

After reading a lot of forum posts and the wiki on here I was thinking that it would be best to just start once I've arrived but I've seen a couple of jobs online that I quite like the look of.

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Good luck, its difficult isn't it, we want the job security but how can you make someone interested in you when the move isn't till next year.

Bit of a brain teaser I think. :confused:

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What a lot of folks don't realise is that being successful, especially in job hunting, isn't about being the one they want, it is about avoiding being one of the ones they don't want. Let me explain the concept of "the dump list"...

I'm involved in a couple of initiatives educating people on business and related matters. One of my favourite exercises is in a discussion group, asking people how they think I would go about choosing the right person for a job from 200 applicants. Eventually, I tell them; I take all the applications and I sit with a waste basket on my right hand side. I then look at each CV or letter and if I don't like it in 5 seconds, it goes in the bin. At first pass, I might have 10 left out of 200 and I will either run another pass or invite them in for interview.

People don't like that reality but that is very much how it happens because the employer holds all the cards.

The question isn't so much about where you are but what you are. Oscardon comes close with his question above except there is a slight difference in approach; it isn't how you make them interested, it is about how you stop them being UNinterested. How do you avoid the dump list?

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Your right, and Oscardon is a girl (well Oscar is the name of my dog). I was thinking in the new year of calling people and just asking them about the local plumbing market (on behalf of my other half, Im the better talker) and see if I can get an idea of how things are but if Im nice enough they may accept his CV and rember us when we are out there, I think I might try local building merchants etc as well, do people think this might work?

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LOL! Well, I had a 50% chance of getting it right without looking in the profile!

I would be looking to research the market; is there a shortage of plumbers? There usually is in cities. What about working as a temp - are there options to do that to start with, filling in for companies that have taken on short term contracts? What about self-employed then you could look for contracts with companies rather than employment?

You become INFINITELY more employable once the company has reliable info on you. Can you do the job? Are you reliable? Will you win me business or lose it for me?

Can you afford to do 1 month probation unpaid so they get the measure of you? If your are good, they will want you and it is no risk to them. You could spend a month looking for work anyway and you don't get paid for that so you could be doing something constructive with the time.

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By printing your resume on pink paper and the creative use of as many font sizes and typefaces as you can? :)

For the OP keep in mind that networking and job hunting might have the same objective but are very different activities. At the moment you are networking. Job hunting doesn't happen until you are ready, willing and able to start work tomorrow. I am not saying it is completely impossible to find an employer who will say, "great, we'd love to have you on board, we'll keep your job open for a few months until you make it over here." Not impossible, but so unlikely that it is not really worth thinking about.

The best you will get is, "give us a call when you get here." Most likely you will get nothing. The vast majority of employers will not reply to unsolicited employment requests.

At the moment you are networking. The essence of good networking when you are job hunting is not to ask for a job. You put people in a difficult position if you ask them for something they cannot give you. They will avoid you to save on embarrassment.

So, ask them for something they can give you: information. What is the job market like? What sort of skills are in short supply? what sort of resumes do they like to get? If they were recruiting right now what would be the best way for you to present your skills and experience? (This is getting a bit close to the bone so back off) Are there any professional/trade associations that would be good for you to join? Is there a source for expected salary levels in the area/industry? What sort of salary do they think a newcomer should ask for? And so on and so on ... Dion't grill them but keep the conversation light. The final question is can they suggest anyone else you could/should talk to?

Most people like to take the opportunity to be helpful when they can. The average Canadian more so than the average Brit.

Another thing to keep in mind is that good networking is a two way thing. Try and think of something you can offer the people you talk to. This is not always easy but, for example, if you have read an interesting article relevant to their business in a publication they will not have seen you could offer to email it to them.

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I would think carefully about this. I work with a lot of trades and subtrades and they are a pretty macho lot. I am sure they will enjoy talking to you but a good number of them will wonder what sort of a man gets his wife to find him a job.

I agree with a lot of what Tripitaka says in the post above. Networking helps a lot. If your OH can start a conversation with, "I was talking to Fred at Interior Plumbing and Heating and he suggested that I give you a call," then you establish instant credibility.

I am not too sure about looking specifically for temporary work. The nature of the Canadian workplace is that everyone is temporary. Some people temp for the same company for 45 years, but there is not such a distinction between temporary and permanent workers as there is in the UK.

Also (and this is just an opinion not backed by any rationale) I wouldn't work for free. Your OH has valuable skills that are worth something to an employer. In my experience people don't value what they don't pay for. That said, offering to work at a substantial discount to the market rate for a probationary period would interest many employers. It is better to be gaining Canadian experience earning a little than being at home spending a lot.

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The computer business is not especially one rippling with machismo. Nonetheless, when I did that the existing staff threatened my life. They correctly guessed that the employer would offer to keep me at the discounted rate, I'd take it and they'd been out on their arses. That was, perhaps, my most satisfyingly "immigrant" experience.

I don't say don't do it but don't do it blindly.

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Normally, I would agree and certainly support the "no cost = no value" position but you can't go fishing without bait. I should make clear that it is a last resort, the tactic you would take when you have no other options to pursue. Unfortunately, I think many would find themselves in that position when looking for work as a new arrival.

The proposal to work for a discounted rate serves the same purpose in any event; it is the big, fat bait to temp the company to take a chance on you. if or when they bite, you need to work your ass off to make them think..."Bloody Hell! We want this guy!" The advantage of doing it this way is that you get to negotiate your rate/salary AFTER you have proved your worth, thus putting you in a much stronger position. Of course, the other advantage is that you get to check them out as a company before you make a commitment.

I will caveat all this with a clear statement that I have no experience of the Canadian jobs market; I'm still in the UK and moving there in my current role so even after I arrive, my experience will be based on my wifes job-hunting.

I do agree 100% with the comments on networking though; I started cultivating my Canadian network maybe 2 months ago and already there are 2 people that want to meet my wife when we land to discuss opportunities. It is very much "who you know" rather than "what you know" in any country so you need to be building a network like mad. If you aren't on Facebook and LinkedIn then start with that as soon as possible. Send me a PM and I'll add you to my LinkedIn profile.

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The plan is not to stay on the discounted rate...:rofl:

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Worked for me and for the employer. The two guys I undercut were each billing more than I was and $18/hr was a lot to me at the time. I think you will find that India has since built an entire industry on the same approach.

Suppose the going rate for some job now is $80/hr, your man there gets off the boat and offers to work for a month for 40. That works for the employer, if he has faith, as he can dump an employee and save 40/hour but, after the month, he's not going to put the new guy's rate up to 80. If he wanted to pay that, he'd not have risked trying the immigrant. 60, maybe.

Be aware, of course, that if you go this way someone from a poorer country will be along, Indians in my case, looking to work for 30. If you're going to race to the bottom be sure you can go lower than anyone else.

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There are a lot of plumbing contractors around. After a few months proving he is competent and reliable he can ask for the market rate. If it is refused he is in a much stronger position to seek employment, at the right pay, elsewhere.

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Maybe, but in my experience of pimping, it's easy to pressure someone who has worked cheap to stay cheap even as you sell them at the market rate. One snag is that the first employer will be needed as a reference, his reference might be "good" ... "and cheap".

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At the risk of taking this thread off topic, I think that a) you are a product of your own experience (generic "you", there) and b) you aren't considering quality in the argument, only price.

If an employer is choosing from candidates that are either all the same quality, all APPEAR to be the same quality or doesn't care about quality then he will choose purely on price.

If an employer is choosing on potential and value-add, then cost will only be a factor in the decision.

Personally, I wouldn't want to work for the former in any event. With the latter, you better understand not only where your value-add is but also that it matches the employers view of what value-add is and how you can demonstrate it consistently well.

As for India, I know the score there. I work for HP and we employ most of them! :rofl:

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It was your idea to sell on price, even offering the poor poster for zero dollars. I'm suggesting that, if one does this, one risks starting a price war from which no-one will emerge a winner.

"value-add" is a form of management jargon new to me. What does it mean?

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I find that the ability to leverage your own diversity is an essential value-add.

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I cultivate your comments, but can you demonstrate, consistently well, that your employer considers diversity leveragification a value-add even when self applied?

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It is bait, nothing more than an opportunity to get the employer to take an interest with little or no risk to themselves in order to demonstrate your capabilities. It must be time-bound openly from the start; if the employer knows that you are only prepared to work on a lower rate indefinitely then there isn't a temptation for him to bring you on board for such a short period as there will be at least some overhead for him. You must be prepared to walk away at the end of the period if the employer has failed to be convinced of your value-add.



Value-add isn't really jargon but is often mis-understood in a world focussed only on price. The key word is value and it means something different to each individual because the things that we value are unique to each of us. It is the basic driver behind a transaction of any sort - again, not only talking money here.

An employer will have a paradigm (sorry, thats probably more jargon...a mental model of how he perceives the world and everything in it) on what he considers valuable. As a business, they will want to attain all of those values at the lowest cost.

As an employee, you will have a completely different set of values. Some, but certainly not all, of your values will align with your employer but here is the thing that a lot of people seeking work fail on.

You need to understand to the greatest degree you possibly can, what your prospective employers values are then you need to demonstrate that you can not only meet them, but exceed their expectations of you meeting them. You need to stand out and meet/exceed more of them than any other employee if you want to avoid being judged on cost alone. Value-add therefore, is simply how much you can contribute to the values desired by the other party in the transaction, in this case the employer.

It all falls down for lots of folks because they are only, or mainly, focussed on their own values or desires. The employer knows and expects this so treats everyone equally at the start, thus, everyone is judged on the only common denominator of cost. This is where the opportunity to lies in going in at zero or low cost on a limited period; get the opportunity by appearing valuable on cost but with an open an honest approach with the employer that you are doing it so you can demonstrate how much value you can add. At the end of the period, you have an equally open conversation with the employer on how much he feels your value is worth to him; if the price he has differs from the price you feel you are worth then you walk away.

These are the basic rules of contracting in any industry but certainly in IT in the UK. As a contractor, you get a 3 month contract and you are judged on that; if you perform well enough, you get a renewal and if not, you get binned. If you are outstanding, you get a rate rise if a) the employer recognises that you have skills he wants to keep and cannot easily get elsewhere (although you will more than likely get an immediate permanent employment offer) or b) the employer recognises your value as being worth more than your cost and you ask for a rate rise.

It is simple stuff but like common sense, the problem is, understanding it isn't very common.

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Maybe I should add a point here that might not be understood by all.

I've seen a few posts on this and other forums complaining that Canada has a "closed" jobs market; that most jobs aren't advertised. It isn't just Canada; there was a study done in the UK a few years back that found that only 3-5% of available roles are actually advertised anywhere. The rest are filled by word of mouth.

Why is that? Well, check out my last post. If you are an employer and someone you know and trust knows that you have a vacancy and they know someone that could fill it, then chances are it is a done deal. Why would you got to the time and expense of advertising it when you can get a candidate that comes with at least some pre-vetting and a reference?

I only fill roles from my network. Ever.

This is why JBE's info on networking is so valid - it is crucial to success. Sure, you might score lucky but with a great network that you have invested time and effort in with an approach of "What can I do for them?" rather than "What can they do for me?", you will get lucky far more often.

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He has a duty to shareholders, an obligation to make money, it would be unprofessional of him to consider anything but price. We're talking jobs here, not dating.

I suggest that this is a naive view of the contract market in the UK and a way off base in the Canadian context. Firstly, contracts in Canada are primarily about circumventing employment laws, an IT contractor isn't typically taken on the expectation of the contract lasting months but decades; it's a "contract" solely to give the employer an option to dump the employee. Secondly, the choice of contractor isn't typically about ability, lots of people can do the jobs available, the ones who get the work have pimps who put up good bribes and work the supplier lists well. No one gets a rate rise based on skills or competence, typically a contractors rate rise comes from the pimp's share of the billing, the increase is brought on by fear of the contractor wandering off to the US.

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Create value, I think, rather than make money. Price is only one component of value - in many cases the least important.

Your business seems somewhat a-typical.

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:ohmy: I think I understand your paradigm now. It could do with some work though if you are open-minded enough to consider that might be possible. JBE is right on the money below and another consideration would be non-public private companies (no shareholders) or voluntary organisations (charities etc). It isn't worth me writing more unless you are prepared to reconsider your view.



I have no objection to the suggestion. Let me offer my brief credentials as a counter argument:

I have employed contractors in the IT market for 22 years and in the heating and plumbing trade for 7 years. I have worked as a contractor for 5 years and my wife has been an IT contractor for the last 10 years. I have monthly calls with agencies and headhunters and great relationships with them. I locate and supply at least 10 people per year to these agencies through my network.

I may be way off base for the Canadian market but two things I do understand are UK contracting an networking. As different as the Canadian market may or may not be, some aspects of this are generic and will fit either market.

With only your mails in this thread to work from, you seem quite bitter and negative about your work situation. Your description of the price war and terms like "pimp" suggest that you have probably had bad experiences that have formed your paradigm through emotional experience. Is there anything positive you could consider posting on this topic that might help me change my view. :confused:

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Not emotional, no. Buying and selling people is what we do, it's just business.

I can't see that I'd want to change your view. I make a steady living supplying contractors and have done so, in Canada, for twenty odd years. I think it's all about price. You think fuzzy factors are important. Good luck to you.

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So who can get me a job then lol.:thumbsup:

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good information i will change my CV also

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Quite. I just got off the phone with a tart of mine in Boston.

"I want this, this and this, by then. Five man-days at $2k per day. OK?"
"Yup".

My client has no idea who my tart is and will not ask the question. The tart knew who the client was before I told him. He'd worked it out. He knows his stuff. That's why I use him.

He has a wife and kids, apparently. Not that I care.

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That's how it's done. Worse case he'll say "Wisconsin in January?!" or "that sweatshop again?!" and you'll have to go to $2200. I can do that.

Lately though I have been obliged to deal with managing "staff", people employed by a company that's a client of mine. I'm used to managing contractors, for our firm, for other people, all sorts of arrangements but all geared to getting some project or other completed. That I can do, contractors want to do the job and get paid and that's all. Contractors have either been around forever and so know to shut up and get on with it, or new and disposable.

Staff are shit to deal with; I'm obliged to make a weak pretence of interest in them as people, I'm obliged to take into account that getting the job done isn't a motivation for them, I'm supposed to care about their personality clashes and political issues. What will happen, of course, is that eventually the staff will sit in a room and be paid not to get the job done and I'll bring in a few ugly paid-by-the-hour people and we'll do it.

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I hope some of those people are reading this.

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DBD has basically just described a situation which I have personally seen with my own eyes on more than one occasion over the last few years.

Since I came into this industry full time I have almost always contracted apart from a brief period at the start of last year where I got a permanent job because ironically that was all that was going in the area of the UK where I lived at the time and it was actually that short experience which encouraged me to look into coming over to Canada seriously. That company was the only exception to this rule for me because their policy was not to use contractors and everybody worked their arse off there because it was a development studio and there was always so much to do but in all other cases over the last few years I have worked in the internal IT section for a company and it always seemed like the contractors did the lion's share of the work whilst the permanent staff, many of whom were either extremely lazy and/or incompetent, mostly complained about their benefits or were involved in petty squabbles over the unwritten rules and chain of command which they had tried to create amongst themselves.

I doubt these issues are unique to the IT industry though unfortunately.

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I have no issue with what DBD says in regard to contracting - in fact, I agree 100%. I wonder if I had wrongly assumed that the OP was actually looking to secure a permanent position though given that they were looking to secure "work", or at least an offer of "work" while still in the UK? If so, then the info from DBD doesn't really apply as it is a different set of rules when hiring a permy employee and my original comments still stand.

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How does contracting recruitment generally work over here?

There doesn't seem to be a set standard in the UK and I have experienced it from the extreme of a two stage interview process for a 6 month contract to a 5 minute telephone interview resulting in a 'that all sounds great, when can you start?" for a 1 year one.

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The latter is typical, in most cases it'll be because your pimp has some pull with someone at the hiring organization. The candidate typically isn't evaluated, it's all in his reputation or that of the pimp. That's why few long term contractors bother with resumes.

Note however that contracts start because something needs doing and end because of politics, it's not unusual for a contract, initially stated as being of six months duration, to go for ten years but, equally, it's not unusual for it to end after four months. The end is rarely for any logical reason, such as the project being finished, more commonly it's because a new manager is appointed and wants to use a different set of contractors because he's mates with a different pimp.

Assume corruption and conspiracy and you'll probably be right.

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Hi there,

We originally landed with PR in Kamloops may 2010 and found sending emails with updated cvs/resumes not very successful per 100's sent out.

Face to face worked out everytime, out of 7 jobs ive been offered , 4 in Kamloops and now 3 here in Vernon its been not what you know its either who you know or get in and introduce yourself.

My wifes having the same problem here and is trying to find an admin job, she probably gets 1 reply from a 100 emails. Im in the process of printing off some resumes so she can pop into places and do the face to face thing.

I did carry on sending out my resume by email as well because im sure some do reply..

Cheers & Good luck
Gaz

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The face to face thing sounds like a good idea as i read that canadians prefer the personal approach however I work in the IT industry so how would I go about getting past the receptionist downstairs to actually having a brief chat with the manager or whoever is hiring located upstairs?

I know from my own experience of networking that making that intial good impression can be vital

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Can anybody recommend any good 'pimps' in the Toronto area? I've applied for a few things since getting here last week but have so far heard nothing back.

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What is the tag line on your resume, what are you selling?

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Not sure how to answer those questions if I'm perfectly honest.

I will email you a copy and let you take a look through it if that's OK. I've only really been applying for basic support/technician type roles so far though and have cut my original CV down from 4 pages to just 2. Most of the jobs I have seen seem to be permanent ones though (I've mostly been looking on Jobserve and Monster) so I'm not even 100% sure if I'm looking in the right places to begin with.