theDIV

Hi,
I have been thinking of moving to Canada with my partner and our 2 children for some time now. I wanted to move to Ottawa, but from what I have read on some of the threads on this site, the employment situation for immigrants (and maybe even Canadian citizens) seems to be very difficult at the moment (I would be seeking work as a computer programmer), not only in Ottawa, but across most of Canada.

Has this always been been the situation as far as seeking employment is concerned? If not, when did things get this bad?

I wondered if the difficulty immigrants seem to be having finding employment might be due to the current recession, and that the situation may be likely to improve in the near future? If anyone could give me their thoughts on this, I would greatly appreciate it, as I would still really love to make this move.

daven

I can't say for sure (as I haven't moved out yet), but if you take a look at workpolis.com, I'm sure you'll see loads of jobs for programmers (depending on your skills, of course).

I suspect that we in IT might have an advantage over some other occupations, as IT employers the world over want to know our specific skills in terms of programming languages, protocols etc. Java is java the world over, an MCSE is an MCSE, a CCIE is a CCIE.

However, I doubt many employers would take up someone without a work permit or PR unless you have some very specific skill or experience they can't find anywhere else (I'm trying to network my way in with some now). I think you might have to plunge right in, get PR, then hope for the best.

iaink

I dont want to dissapoint anyone, but look at the number of posts here specifically saying that IT is the hardest field to get a job in without canadian qualifications and experience. A few years ago there was a shortage, but the world and its wife are now out there looking for work in a field that has contracted enormously in the last few years with the dot com bust.

For every job on Workopolis or Monster there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of applicants.

Even immigrants with skills in areas where there are shortages, such as engineering, struggle to get past the canadian experience catch 22. IT will be very hard to get into. FWIW, networking is probably the best way to get on.

Sorry, but dont kid yourselves

Iain

daven

Well, IT is an enormous field, and I should imagine that jobs with general skills which could go to Canadians first probably will. However, I'm seeing jobs on Workopolis that I'm qualified for, that have been there for weeks and keep getting re-entered. So presumably no-one suitable has been found. If I was resident, I would apply for them, but as I'm not, I won't.

I still maintain that if you have the skills the employer wants, especially if it is a specialist skill, then you'll get hired. If you want a programmer who understands LDAP and has recent C# experience doing a rollout of a large scale provisioning system, you'll employ the person who has that experience, not someone you were introduced to by a friend who doesn't have that experience. These aren't "canadian" qualifications - they are languages and protocols and you either know them or you don't. "Canadian" experience is irrelevant if you can't code in the specified language, and don't understand the protocols.
If software manufacturers worked as you suggest, they wouldn't stay in business very long and there wouldn't be a thriving business in offshore software development in countries like India.

iaink

You asked a question, I answered it, you don't like the answer, fair enough, but the reality is that you can have all the experience in the world, but if it is not in canada no one hiring here cares. Unless you have IT qualifications from a canadian college, its like it doesnt count.

If you dont believe me search through the many posts in misc.immigration.canada regarding this very topic.

Maybe if you have some very specific experience you will land a job, but no one ever said that the IT employment market here was fair or right. I would hate anyone to emmigrate to canada expecting to walk into a job in IT, its just not like that anymore.

Please, dont kill the messenger!

Iain

Pammy

I still maintain that if you have the skills the employer wants, especially if it is a specialist skill, then you'll get hired. If you want a programmer who understands LDAP and has recent C# experience doing a rollout of a large scale provisioning system, you'll employ the person who has that experience, not someone you were introduced to by a friend who doesn't have that experience. These aren't "canadian" qualifications - they are languages and protocols and you either know them or you don't. "Canadian" experience is irrelevant if you can't code in the specified language, and don't understand the protocols.



Dont you believe it, I and others used to wear the same rosy tinted glasses, I know people qualified in IT like you who are working in shoe shops, in Canada a lot of it definately is 'who you know', anyway like Iain said 'dont shoot the messenger', try to get a job before you come, it can be done, if an employer wants you they will hold the post open or come on a 2 year work permit and slum it(if you have to)of course you may be lucky and walk into something right away .

Check the HRDC website for jobs in all areas - www.hrdc

Pammy

Alexandra

One example (please don't hit me either): our company is currently hiring a shipper/receiver for about 10 an hour. They went through hundreds of applications, the position is still vacant. I asked why. Here is the reply I got: 'We just can't find the right person. There was a guy with 18 years experience in shipping/receiving but we didn't hire him, we just didn't like him. We don't want former burger flippers either. We just want to find somebody we like as a person'. Prior to that they fired one girl after three months, because 'she didn't fit into the team'. We are talking about packing boxes here, not CEO of the company. Makes me sick.

One of my Brit friends got a secretarial job here, and after a couple of months she was off for a couple of weeks due to severe back problems. When she came back to work they fired her, telling her, you guessed it:'you do not fit into the team'.

iaink

Or in my case, after 18 months, "Its just not working out", after a glowing 12 month appraisal. My (canadian) buddy doing the same job for 4 years was told something similar recently. He had excellent evaluations for the first 3 quarters (after i was fired out of the blue, he went out of his way to ensure he would at least see it coming), then was rated poor over the year in is annual assesment, and canned first day back after Xmas. An everyday story of job security in the canadian market. We are talking about professional enginneers here as well, not burger flippers!

Our pet theory is that having been there a while we would be expecting salary increases in line with our experience, so better to get rid of us, hire someone cheaper, and scare the crap out of anyone else considering asking for more money. Its a nice theory, but I suspect the reality is more mundain. Lots of politics at work.

Iain

Cykotronic

wrong forum

CalgaryAMC

I remember a guy in Calgary - a nice guy too. Came into the office one morning, starting whinging to another guy about something or other. I can't remember exactly what it was - not being paid for his overtime or something. Fired that afternoon. And that was in a multi-billion dollar oil firm. They don't take prisoners!

crazydaisy

Sorry to harp on about the States but it's a similar case here too. A neighbour and friend of ours overslept and rang up to ask a mate if he could swap shifts. The boss told him to come in as soon as he was dressed which he did and then was publicly marched off the premises with his P45! Workers rights here are awful and in Tennessee they don't even have to give a work contract by law. It stinks! Plus, after our first few months we had to return to the UK to get our visas converted to a different visa (due to their cock up not ours). It took 10 days for the visa to be processed and then they took those 10 days out of my husband's entire holiday allowance - charming!

CalgaryAMC

Alberta is a work-at-will province too (no contract required); same as Texas, South Carolina, Tennessee and a handful of others.

Kadett

No.....it's not due to the recession!

Well this may be how you 'logically' see things, however unlike any other civilised country, you want to go to Canada and ergo you can throw that logic out the window immediately. You could be the best IT person in the world and have all the paper to boot, but in Canada they will always give the job to someone totally unqualified who is either a member of someones family or some sychophantic gobshite they met at a party. If you expect things to work out all fair and logical then you're in for a rough and bumpy ride here. What you can actually do is irrelevant and the fact that you're a foreigner means you're dead meat.

Case in point in my field of study and work experience I did policy analysis on Russia and the CIS. Spent over two years in Russia and have qualifications for that in the UK, Russia and soon Canada, plus extensive language skills and experience. I recently had the opportunity to visit the so-called Russia section of DFAIT in the Canadian Government, and guess what: most of them spoke no Russian at all and clearly many had difficulty identifiying major towns there on a map. It's not that they can't get qualified staff its simply that in their peasant mentality they don't want them, after all someone who actually could do a good job would expose them for the waste of life they really are. That is Canada and Canadians.

Of course you won't listen to this, but I'll say it anyway: don't come here, there are no jobs for foreigners (Oh and incidentally having a Canadian passport doesn't make a difference). In terms of IT, I live in Ottawa and I can tell you, Sears and McDonalds are full of redundant or 'never made it' IT people making $8 p/h or less, some of them with 10-20 years experience. Case in point a young guy I know here from Russia (came over with his parents) worked in Nortel, got laid off and lived on welfare for a year. He went home even though he was still due for Military Service, because basically being in the Russian Army was better than being here. Read up on what conscription in the Russian armed forces is like and you'll perhaps understand what a damning inditement his decision is on this country and its way of life.

You mention you keep seeing ad's posted and reposted on Workopolis. Because there reposted doesn't mean they are not getting the people, its because they have such high turnover in these positions.

If you're smart you'll stay where you are in the UK and thank your lucky stars you and your family live where you do.

theDIV

Hi Kadett,
On the contrary, I posted my question in the first place, with the intention of listening to peoples opinions on this subject. Thanks for you advice.

I get the general idea that this is the majority of peoples' experience in the Canadian job market - quite a departure from what we're used to here in the UK, where I am currently in a secure job, with 25 days holiday allowance a year, and flexible working hours. Its just that the weather here is so bad!!!!

It sounds like a move to Canada is probably a bad idea.

iaink

This is probably the twentieth time I have posted this on this forum...:lecture:

DO NOT EMMIGRATE FOR FINANCIAL GAIN OR CAREER ADVANCEMENT, YOU ARE ALMOST CERTAIN OF DISAPPOINTMENT. EMMIGRATE BECAUSE YOU IDENTIFY WITH THE LIFESTYLE AND VALUES OF YOUR INTENDED DESTINATION, YOU WILL BE A LOT HAPPIER.

Iain