electricity supply
 

Are there any ex Brit electricians out there who can help me with working out what goods to bring out to Canada?
What I need to know and cannot find a straight answer to anywhere is, what is the effect using 50 htz UK electrical goods (with a transformer to convert the wattage) on a 60htz based canadian supply? Will they work OK, or not at all, or will they just get "knackered" slowly?

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the probs you will get is motors run faster, etc, and clocks will not run to true time, its just to much trouble.

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Even battery chargers for power tools etc can't take it for long - my drill, cutters and nail gun lasted less than a year before the chargers gave up the ghost.

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Direct AC drive appliances are the worst affected.. Like hairdryer motors, basically anything with a high-power motor is likely to be "direct drive AC", and will run at 6/5 speed on 60Hz, they will suffer increased damage over longer periods as they are not designed to run at higher frequency.

(Don't bother bringing these as they are heavy, expensive to transform, and anything above 1800W can't even be plugged in to a standard outlet here -- even if you convert the voltage!)

Modern low-power electronics are usually fine -- It is true that modern electrical appliances that have AC transformer/rectifier circuitry designed ONLY for 50Hz will suffer increased wear in the transformer/rectifier, but they usually break for other reasons (i.e. power spikes, we get LOTS in canada).

EDIT: my battery power charger broke too.... I was going to have my folks send me a new one when they informed me theirs broke too at almost the SAME time as mine, so i think it's more to do with quality!!!

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Its not as bad as many would have you believe.. if you know what your doing

If the item says it runs on 50-60hz then bring it along and stick it on a transformer
If it say 50hz only the leave it behind..
If it says 100-250v 50-60hz buy a plug adapter as that’s all it needs

For what its worth I have a Dyson running on 220v at 60hz as most candian house have a split phase feed of two 110v out of phase so if you know what your doing you can run at lot of UK things in Canada.

I should point out that should any of these start a fire then you may find that because ist doesn’t meet Canadian spec your insurance won’t pay out.
So if you’re not sure, Then don’t


Key points, anything with a motor or items like a TV use a lot of power on start up so make sure your transformer has at least twice the power you expect to use,
My UK TV pulls aprox 1000watts for 1 second at start up and then settles to about 300watts

Things like kettles and other heat only items can be plugged straight in but will tend to run between ¼ to ½ power.
Anything with an AC motor will run slightly faster as a rule, so if its speed critical don’t bother

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I checked with some of the engineers here at work as we’ve got a few ‘European’ industrial systems that we use transformers to power,
They said most “reasonable” motors designed for 50Hz will run OK on 60hz, (but not the other way around as the motor fails to run at sufficient speed for their cooling fans to shift enough air over the coils)
I run several UK Bosch Drills, Saws, Etc on the 220v here without issue

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Another thing to remember, be sure you plug your goods into the "English" outlets in your home, rather than the "French" outlets. Otherwise you'll only get French TV stations and French radio stations.

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Really depends on the motor type, synchronous vs ascynchronous and the starting and control circuitry etc too.

Ive a feeling most industrial motors have more sophisticated curcuiry than domestic motors, and a others have said single phase synchronous motors (clocks, turntables etc ) will run fast.

Another victim of 60Hz is the microwave synchotron...wont do much to heat anything at the different frequency.

Remember in addition to picking a transformer with sufficient overcapacity, remember they are lossy, so your hydro bill will be significantly higher, and also for the high power ones they can be getting pretty unwieldy and expensive.

Also the 220 coming into canadian homes is not grounded the same way that 240 is in the UK. In the UK neutral and ground are common, but here the ground is floating between two out of phase 110V lines.

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Joining the two, this sounds interesting. As this sort thing is not standard I assume I will not find a professional in Toronto to do this sort of hybrid power setup. I would love to have 110 and 220 at the same time.

I have a lot of HiFi gear that I would love to bring to Cananda but I'm not sure if the risks are worth it.

I'm an Engineer but not with electrics, I know the basics. I was amazed by the lack of earthing in Canadian homes. I get static shock of a lot of things. Of course it could be just the weather and the dry air.

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Most Canadian homes are well grounded. It may different then the way you are used to but they are grounded.

Static shocks have nothing at all to do with how our homes are wired.

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Does anyone know the 'logic' of wiring here eg UK has a ring for the lights up/down stairs (kinda) and rings for the mains up & down (sorta). But here it seems anything goes as long as the power gets there and the lights don't dim when you turn anything else on - is it just 'X' number of power sockets plus 'Y' number of lights make a feed from the fuse board (never seen a ring here) or what?

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Never heard of a ring. :confused:

Light and plugs are usually on the same circuits cna't remember what the max allowed is but I think 11 or 12 rings a bell although don't quote me I'm not an electrician. ;)

Kitchen has different wiring than rest of house usually split receptacles for counters so both plugs at an outlet are on different circuit breakers usually 15 amp double pulls. Fridge should be on its own breaker.

Bathroom plugs should be on a GFCI (Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter) as should outdoor plugs.

Simplified Wiring code books usually available at your local Rona or Home Depot type stores.

Cheers
Steve

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A 'ring' is when you run a line from the power board round various sockets then back to the power board, or a line from the power board round various light fittings then back to the power board - its much too long since I read about Ohms law and my memory aint what it was. But I remember (I think I do any way) that the 'ring' attempts to keeps each socket up to voltage irrespective of what other sockets in the rings are drawing. Whereas running a line that ends at the last socket in the line means that if all the sockets in the line are drawing power the last socket in the line will be low on voltage. But I guess if you limit the number of sockets the effect will be minimal.

Thanks for the link - I'll spend a while reading up.

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A big "thankyou" to all of you who have replied to my query. Anyone know where I can buy a gas TV? No, seriously , it is all a lot clearer now, thanks again. Pam.

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the use of a transformer alone wont change the freq, only the voltage, they dont use ring mains in canada, and to help confuse they run lights and sockets together etc.

getting static shocks of every thing is cos the air is so dry most of the time and to get the shock is a sign of a good earth for the charge to go to earth.

Re Ring Mains
 

For what it's worth they don't use ring mains in France, Germany etc - its a peculiar brit thing. It assumes that you will never load all the sockets on the ring at the same time 'cos if you do, you trip the circuit breaker. That's why rings are shared between downstairs and upstairs - again to reduce the chance of using all outlets at once.
In France and Germany they have a "safer" system, in that there is a strict maximum number of outlets on a line (2 or3?) and each line has its own circuit breaker. Cookers, immersion heaters etc which draw a high current are each separately protected.
Vive la France!
Cheers
Ray

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Been running two complete Hi Fi systems I brought out with me here (Made up of 'seperates) off transformers for the past 2 years without issue. Also various power tools, wood turning lathe and power washer.

Think problems can arise re the 50/60 hz scenario where machines e.g. power tools, lathe etc are run continuously for a time which may result in overheating of the motor due to the increased speed it may run at.

As an aside, I never leave the transformer plugged in to the outlet when the item being run from it is not actually in use...just a precaution as I have heard of transformers catching fire. :blink:

I have also been told that your home insurance company may have issues about their use should a fire result there from while using UK equipment. :unsure: Just a thought...forearmed is forewarned.

Cheers

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The turntable I brought in 1981 is still in regular use with a transformer and local capstan. I even have the original capstan in case I move back to the UK (and can pry the turntable from my child's hands).

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To answer the ring and earthing here in Canada

IMHO the acceptable standard here would in a lot of cases be illegal in the UK, France and Germany, don’t ever take an earth here for granted either check it.
They get away with it because at 110v the fatality risk is lower, when you jump it up to 220v by using both live wires or step it up to 240v using a transformer your at risk if you don’t check it properly.

The ring is slightly more expensive to install so you don’t see it here, but the key idea is that the load is always spread over two wires, so if something fuses a lot more amps can be handled by the system before a fire risk occurs, you’d think this would be a smart option in a wooden house?
Separating the lighting and power circuits means that if something fuses then that circuit blows but you shouldn’t be plunged into darkness just when you need to see what going on.
Canadian electrics is one of the “cons” when you get here

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Correctly fused radial circuits are safer than British ring mains circuits because there is no potential of wire overload when the fusebox breaker matches the regular rating for the wire coming from it. This is one reason why BS 1363 includes the fuse in the plug...... we simply don't need it here.

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Ha, found my copy of the Alberta version of the Electrical Code Simplified (Residential Wiring).

"A maximum of 12 outlets may be connected to a circuit. This may consist of 12 light fixtures or 12 plug outlets (not appliance plugs) or any combination of lights and plug outlets mixed, as long as their total does not exceed 12 outlets."

Cheers
Steve

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Not sure I go with that one - the trip here is 15 or 20 Amp so if you have a table/bedside lamp on it there is a distinct danger that, in the event of a problem with the lamp, the power cable to the lamp could melt and present a fire hazard. Whereas in the UK a 3 amp fuse in the plug would offer a lot more protection by blowing a lot sooner than a 20 Amp trip would blow. I have also noticed that power cables to various household items can get quite warm - not sure what causes it but it sure don't seem 'right'

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The root cause of the heat is the amperage

For an appliance in Canada to be able to do the same level of ‘work’ as in the UK it require twice as much current, and this is the primary source of heat.

Which is why I think it would be common sense to use ring mains as they split the load across two wires there by reducing the heat load on the internal house circuitry

And I’m sorry for anybody that thinks a “correct” but high ampere fuse at the distribution box is safer that a smaller local fuse.

And allowing power sockets in bathrooms……. ?

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Sockets in bathrooms do have to be a minimum distance from water sources. I love being able to plug in a stereo or whatever, whats the problem with that? If people want to fry themselves in the UK they can always run an extension.

Seriously, how often has a power outlet in the bathroom created a problem here? Come to that I wonder what the relative incidences of electrical deaths and house fires are in N America vs the UK. I suspect if 110 and the electrical code were a safety issue, someone would have been sued a long time ago and the whole thing revamped for our own protection....after all, this is Canada, the worlds most nannying state we are talking about;)

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According to the Electrical Code Simplified (Residential Wiring) Alberta Version.

Not only do plugs in bathrooms have to be a minimum 1 meter from a bathtub or shower they must not be over a wash basin but can be to the side, they also must be GFI protected either with a GFI type plug receptacle or and ordinary plug which is supplied from a G.F. type circuit breaker in the service panel.

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But you can still overload the complete circuit, which is hidden from view, because the standard breaker is 30A.... the ring main was designed to save copper and is thus rated lower than 30A because there are two paths. The 13A fuse is there to protect the hidden wire, not the device attached to it. Altough i agree, 3A fuses do give additional protection.

This is also why you are only now allowed 1 socket on a ring spur.

The americans went completely stupid for a while and used aluminium which is even worse design. But both designs are a consequence of high copper prices.

The new IEE regulations (this year i think) are to allow sockets in UK bathrooms, to bring the UK in line with other European countries.

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Tell me about it.

I have one of those homes with aluminum wiring, however in its defense it has stood for 35 years now with no electrical problems.

He says with fingers crossed. ;)

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The problem with Al is not its electrical properties, but its mechanical ones.

Thermal expansion is greater than copper and the brass and steel alloys used in most applications, so joint loosen. Corrosion also occurs in contact with Cu and Cu alloys.

Screw fastened terminals loosen as the Alumin(i)um gives over time, resulting in A: oxidation of the joint, increasing resistance (and therfore heating), and B: a spark gap. Thats why you are supposed to go around periodically tightening the connections in junction boxes etc etc....all in all enough to put me off ever buying a house with Al wiring...you never know when a junction box or marrett joint has been stuffed behind the ceiling or drywall.:ohmy:

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Well I'm pretty sure that there are no hidden connections, so that's not a concern.

What's more of a concern is that is almost impossible to find outlets or switches that were designed for aluminum. They used to be fairly common but not anymore.

So replacing them means using plugs or switches designed for copper only which involves using a copper pigtail and a "purple marret" connector, apparently designed for use with dissimilar metals. At least that's what I've been told by an electrician.:confused:

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Haven't you? It goes like this ring, ring, ring ring ....... :lol:

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So it's not like the one you have thorough your nose.;)

You and your, not meant in the personal sense. :p:lol::rofl::rofl:

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:lol: :rofl: :eek:

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Ok for what its worth a UK approved ring main cable can carry 27 amps

a US/Canadian cable can carry 40amps

a quick look on paper make it look like the Us/Canadian system to be safer.

But do a little math…

The US/Canadian safe system load is a total of 40amps or 110v x 40amps = 4.4kw

The UK safe system load, because it’s a ring main can handle 2x27amps = 54 amps or 12.9kw
and we put a 30amp fuse in line just to be safe!

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That's the point.... you loose one side of the ring and you can have potentially 30A going through a 27A rated wire with no trip... this is why BS 1363 specifies an in-plug fuse.

It gets worse with the spur, because the spur is always one piece of wire (path), not two.

Correctly fused Canadian/US radial circuits will always trip below the rated spec of the wire.

(sorry to drag this out....LOL)

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Question for MikeUK / Niel, it looks like you know your stuff, when I finally land in Toronto can you recomend:

1. A good quality sparky that is going to know their stuff, or what do I look for to find a good one.

2. Can you recomend some reading books or guides, websites etc, with the standards and guidelines CA follows.

3. I'm in to HiFi and here in the UK I have my house setup for clean power (if you have time please take a quick look at this, as this is how my house is configured) Russ Andrews do a PDF called "The Power and the Glory" and it explains about mains wiring. Russ Andrews UK

4. Would I be able to find anyone that would do a hybrid 110 and 230 system? or is it not allowed (again I have some hifi stuff that I could bring with me)

5. So once I have a house I firstly want it striped out and started again. Would this be a good idea?

When I have been out in Canada I notice that when high load things such as Kettles are on the lights dimm a bit or if you have too many items on you can trip the system, if the house is re done with modern standards can this help stop this sort of thing.

R

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Just a quick question how did you manage to run your 240V tools, with the 2 phases you can't link them together as they will create a short. do you run them through some form of transformer Mike??????

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You run one 120V line as "live", and one 120line as the "neutral", although in reality they are both hot. The two 120s are out of phase.

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A good electrician wont do it as its not to code

If you dont know how to do this, dont try and learn it from books, its not worth the risk.

Rewiring would be extremely expensive, I would think its better, more cost effective and more transportable from house to house to just use a big torroidal ferroresonant power conditioner like a Sola or a Topaz ...or both, where ever you think you need them.

Ultimately if you overload any curcuit, it will trip. If you turn on a heavy load other things on that circuit will brown out. Rewiring wont help, the code is the same, its just an inherent property of 110V supply, there is less power in reserve...thats what makes it inherently safer.

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Thanks Ian, doing that is also quite dangerous unless the equipqment is class 2 or double insulated because you are putting 110V on a neutral which in some cases could be bonded to the earth or case of the equipment.

Definately not something i would recommend anyone do. 1 for the safety issues, 2 it would probably invalidate any house insurance you may have if there was a fire or worse

steve

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Why would you lose one side of the ring ?

even if you did the equivalent in Canada is to lose your whole circuit!

:confused: